| There is no need to over analyse 16:56 - Dec 8 with 6248 views | itfcsuth |
It’s just a lack of quality for the PL.
Can look back at the summer window and say we got it horribly wrong.
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| There is no need to over analyse on 19:00 - Dec 9 with 1166 views | ITFCSG |
| There is no need to over analyse on 21:44 - Dec 8 by itfcjoe |
But with Cajuste we’ve got 470 minutes out of him in 14 games, we didn’t have the freedom to bring in players and give them time to get up to speed with the English game and the PL
The clubs that people talk about us to emulate like Brentford, Brighton and Bournemouth are so many windows ahead of us; are able to buy foreign players and take 1-2 years to get them ready to start for them and take over from their established players. We just didn’t have that luxury, we are trying to get to that position first |
I disagree. Many Championship clubs have better foreign scouting networks compared to us. And I am not even talking about the scum who were in the Prem recently or Hull City with their Turkish owners. Look at Blackburn, Bristol City and Coventry, signing players from the J League - Ohashi is a decent Champ forward and Sakamoto a tidy player as well. Some of these clubs also recruit from the continent and USA, Cov even signed American Haji Wright from the Turkish League.
If Ashton and McK insists on only Home Nations players or players raised in the Home Nations who are imbued with British culture then they are closing the doors on a lot of talent.
How many Prem teams have such a high number of Home Nations players compared to us?
I really think it’s more an issue of them not wanting rather than being unable to. |  | | |
| There is no need to over analyse on 07:27 - Dec 10 with 1065 views | itfcsuth |
| There is no need to over analyse on 21:44 - Dec 8 by itfcjoe |
But with Cajuste we’ve got 470 minutes out of him in 14 games, we didn’t have the freedom to bring in players and give them time to get up to speed with the English game and the PL
The clubs that people talk about us to emulate like Brentford, Brighton and Bournemouth are so many windows ahead of us; are able to buy foreign players and take 1-2 years to get them ready to start for them and take over from their established players. We just didn’t have that luxury, we are trying to get to that position first |
But we’ve bought players in from the Championship in hope of getting up to speed with PL football, along with the group we already had who had barely any PL experience between them.
Cajuste looks one of the few who has adapted to PL football to be fair, both with his technical and physical ability. | | | |
| There is no need to over analyse on 07:33 - Dec 10 with 1060 views | Benters |
It’s a learning curve and you have to get it right straight away,we are not far off neither do we sit bottom.
17th is the target. |  |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 07:35 - Dec 10 with 1057 views | itfcsuth |
| There is no need to over analyse on 17:21 - Dec 9 by Bellevue_Blue |
I think horribly wrong is a pretty reactionary and a bit of a stretch here. We had to recruit a team that would gel with the old team and most importantly be assets for the club. Additionally, the double promotion probably means our scouting network is miles behind everyone else and that dictated a certain strategy.
Omari Hutchinson - Been pretty good. Met/ surpassed expectations
Jacob Greaves - Definitely added competition/ solidity. Met expectations
Liam Delap - Now worth 3X what we paid. Surpassed expectations
Jack Clarke - Underwhelming. Not met expectations
Dara O'Shea - Definitely added competition/ solidity. Met expectations
Sammie Szmodics - Been pretty good. Met/ surpassed expectations
Arijanet Muric - Underwhelming. Not met expectations
Chiedozie Ogbene - Injured
Jens Cajuste - Really good. Surpassed expectations
Conor Townsend - N/A
Ben Johnson - Underwhelming. Not met expectations
Kalvin Phillips - Underwhelming. Not met expectations
4 of 12 not met expectations to date and 2 impossible to judge. Jack Clarke struggled to adapt but we know he can be a real asset based on previous form, Muric inconsistent but shows top quality shot stopping, Phillips looks like he won't get back to being the player he was and Ben Johnson is really struggling.
For us to survive we probably needed to be at 10/12 meeting/ exceeding expectations and there is of course time. We just have very little margin for error unfortunately.
The key thing is that if we do go down, we will have the basis of a really really good young team that will happily stay at the club. |
I think it depends on the criteria, but purely looking at it from being at the level needed in PL.
Hutchinson - prospect, but inconsistent
Szmodics - top championship player, but good enough to keep you in the PL, probably not.
Delap - prospect, top prospect, but really needs support in that position
Cajuste - very very good, looks the one who is really capable of PL football.
Greaves - expensive Championship player, a good one, but not an upgrade on Burgess, and for £15m you would hope he was.
Johnson - a good free, but an understudy to Axel
Muric - Decent, but not good enough to keep you in the PL.
O’Shea - Decent, but not good enough to keep you in the PL.
Ogbene - Decent, but not good enough to keep you in the PL.
J.Clarke - Looks a long long way off PL football.
K. Phillips - Difficult start, but developing ok.
Enough there are good players, but just not quite good enough to keep us in the PL, it’s such a high quality division throughout. | | | |
| There is no need to over analyse on 07:39 - Dec 10 with 1043 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Wasn’t part of the reason we went in for mostly Championship players because the club KNEW there was a good chance of relegation. Investing in established PL players on huge wages would have given us issues in the event we go down. And for every gem found abroad how many are failures, or have little impact. People would likewise be going mad if we’d signed a lot of unknown overseas players who struggled with the pace and power of the PL.
It was always going to be tough having only one year in the Championship- a full rebuild was needed. Some like Morsy have stepped up, but others like Burns have found it hard to make an impact. We got back to back promotions, I think the club were pragmatic in their recruitment, and certainly those who are top end Champ players like J Clarke should hit the ground running for our attempt to bounce back on the first attempt. | | | |
| There is no need to over analyse on 07:44 - Dec 10 with 1038 views | Vic |
| There is no need to over analyse on 20:38 - Dec 8 by Trequartista |
Look at the Bournemouth substitute scorers, Unal and Ouattara. I've never heard of them, but they were bought from Getafe and Lorient. They wouldn't have broken the bank to get them. |
I think KM is on record as saying that our scouting network aboard wasn’t/isnt developed enough for this yet. But that aside there was a clear policy of buying the best young players in the Championship, which was always a bit of a gamble - but I’d say it gave us a better overall squad, even though it’s turning out to not be quite good enough.
What we don’t know is how much the powers that be at the club believed this would be enough to keep us up this season or whether they are playing the longer game and building a squad through a couple of yo-yo seasons. |  |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 07:45 - Dec 10 with 1037 views | Blue_In_Boston |
| There is no need to over analyse on 17:24 - Dec 8 by itfcsuth |
Undoubtedly.
Bought too many really good Championship players, without appreciating the gap between Championship/PL.
Look at Cajuste, £10m value, one who looks a real player at PL level, better value abroad than here, and said so at the time were being overcharged for prospect English talent.
Got it horribly wrong in the summer, and will ultimately cost us. |
And look at how sparingly Cajuste is used? Unless there are fitness issues that we aren't aware of us his absence from the team sheet seems crazy. | | | |
| There is no need to over analyse on 07:48 - Dec 10 with 1022 views | Blue_In_Boston |
| There is no need to over analyse on 21:14 - Dec 8 by Broadbent23 |
Because of our double promotion it gave us a free hit at the PL. I believe our transfer deals were for the future. Good young championship talent. But as we have found it is not good enough to perform week in week out, the consistency will come in due course. I agree we should have gone shopping for talent around the World Leagues and got a better mix Muhren and Thijssen were unknown to British fans for example. It is something for us to learn in the future. But since the Arab owners started buying PL clubs and more foreign managers came into the PL the player's standards have gone up, creating a bigger gap from the Championship. Even Sir Bobby might have struggled. The woes of many recent Man Utd managers is proof that talent does not always create success. |
There is no such thing as a free hit. I just don't get that attitude.
If you won the lottery you wouldn't just squander the money and opportunity that you have been given. | | | |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 09:36 - Dec 10 with 951 views | textbackup |
| There is no need to over analyse on 17:01 - Dec 8 by Trequartista |
We bought too many Championship players and not enough players from overseas in my opinion. |
I think we brought with a cautious eye on if we went back down.
If the bulk of this lot stay here, we’ve a hell of a championship squad to give it another crack at going up. |  |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 09:56 - Dec 10 with 933 views | Pinewoodblue |
We have looked more of a Premier League team against the better Premier League clubs .
Our current position reflects the fact we have not produced results against fellow strugglers, against teams likely to be in the Championship next season.
Our approach to such games has been found wanting. |  |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 10:00 - Dec 10 with 926 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| There is no need to over analyse on 07:45 - Dec 10 by Blue_In_Boston |
And look at how sparingly Cajuste is used? Unless there are fitness issues that we aren't aware of us his absence from the team sheet seems crazy. |
There are fitness issues and we are aware of them. Where have you been? |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 10:05 - Dec 10 with 915 views | IPSWICHFANITFC |
| There is no need to over analyse on 07:35 - Dec 10 by itfcsuth |
I think it depends on the criteria, but purely looking at it from being at the level needed in PL.
Hutchinson - prospect, but inconsistent
Szmodics - top championship player, but good enough to keep you in the PL, probably not.
Delap - prospect, top prospect, but really needs support in that position
Cajuste - very very good, looks the one who is really capable of PL football.
Greaves - expensive Championship player, a good one, but not an upgrade on Burgess, and for £15m you would hope he was.
Johnson - a good free, but an understudy to Axel
Muric - Decent, but not good enough to keep you in the PL.
O’Shea - Decent, but not good enough to keep you in the PL.
Ogbene - Decent, but not good enough to keep you in the PL.
J.Clarke - Looks a long long way off PL football.
K. Phillips - Difficult start, but developing ok.
Enough there are good players, but just not quite good enough to keep us in the PL, it’s such a high quality division throughout. |
I think that's a very fair assessment. I'd disagree on O'Shea though who I think is good enough. Him and Burgess have looked fairly good together and our better results have come with those two next door to each other.
Getting Cajuste up to speed where he can start every game is a massive priority for me. Getting support for Delap is another priority. Adding quality to our wide areas is a priority. Taking a bold decision on the GK as well could be a big difference in claiming points. Forest made the decision in January to replace their GK and it paid off. I feel like we may need to do similar. |  |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 10:05 - Dec 10 with 914 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
"Horribly wrong", which you've used at least twice in this thread, is a massive overstatement. Yes it could've gone better. But you're forgetting where we've come from. The jump from the Champ to the Prem is hard enough, let alone the jump from League 1 to the Prem. And we don't have the FFP room anyone else has in this league.
There's no need to overanalyse, but we shouldn't be under analysing either. You've simplified what in reality has been a very difficult to negotiate scenario. Victims of our own too-quick success. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 10:13 - Dec 10 with 906 views | tractordownsouth |
| There is no need to over analyse on 17:01 - Dec 8 by Trequartista |
We bought too many Championship players and not enough players from overseas in my opinion. |
There wasn't much of an opportunity to set up those networks though. From 2021 until 2023 the visa requirements made it virtually impossible for all clubs outside of the Premier League (or those with parachute payments) to sign players from abroad.
It's another example of how we've been disadvantaged by flying through the leagues at such a pace. |  |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 10:16 - Dec 10 with 897 views | itfcjoe |
| There is no need to over analyse on 19:00 - Dec 9 by ITFCSG |
I disagree. Many Championship clubs have better foreign scouting networks compared to us. And I am not even talking about the scum who were in the Prem recently or Hull City with their Turkish owners. Look at Blackburn, Bristol City and Coventry, signing players from the J League - Ohashi is a decent Champ forward and Sakamoto a tidy player as well. Some of these clubs also recruit from the continent and USA, Cov even signed American Haji Wright from the Turkish League.
If Ashton and McK insists on only Home Nations players or players raised in the Home Nations who are imbued with British culture then they are closing the doors on a lot of talent.
How many Prem teams have such a high number of Home Nations players compared to us?
I really think it’s more an issue of them not wanting rather than being unable to. |
I don't think it is a case of insisting on it now, and never veering from it - but just that for this specific window we needed players adapted to English football and we needed to totally reshape the whole squad, and get complex game model messages across in quick time to lots of players in one hit.
It isn't an approach that will work long term, because the market doesn't have as much value in it (although on flip side players recruited in this way who succeed are worth more when it comes to sell); and I'd expect after January for the next 3-4 windows we'll be looking further afield but at the moment it's all about turning us into a side with a higher floor to cover any potential relegation than take flyers on foreign players currently
Foreign players take longer to integrate, even in the Champ they often come in and barely play for first half of the season, or come in and make a big immediate impact and then disappear for a while. We need the squad to be strong to carry that - in an ideal world that is the case even with Championship signings.....Semenyo looks fantastic at the moment but Bournemouth have been able to ease him in over a couple of seasons whereas we are having to chuck everyone in straight away [Post edited 10 Dec 2024 10:18]
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| There is no need to over analyse on 10:20 - Dec 10 with 884 views | NedPlimpton |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:00 - Dec 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
There are fitness issues and we are aware of them. Where have you been? |
Great player, but we're clearly managing his time carefully and people are forgetting he reportedly failed a medical at Brentford
Everyone saying we should have gone in for the players that Bournemouth got from abroad. As much as it pains to say it, we're always going to lose out to the likes of Bournemouth until we become an established PL side.
We were shopping in a market that reflects where our level is at. Realistically there's a few punts in there like a low on confidence Phillips, an injured Cajuste, Delap playing his first full season as a lone forward etc. Compare our window to Leicester and Southampton and it doesn't look too bad. People were crying out for Bereton Diaz and Downes and they're hardly setting the league alight [Post edited 10 Dec 2024 10:23]
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| There is no need to over analyse on 10:33 - Dec 10 with 840 views | itfcsuth |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:05 - Dec 10 by IPSWICHFANITFC |
I think that's a very fair assessment. I'd disagree on O'Shea though who I think is good enough. Him and Burgess have looked fairly good together and our better results have come with those two next door to each other.
Getting Cajuste up to speed where he can start every game is a massive priority for me. Getting support for Delap is another priority. Adding quality to our wide areas is a priority. Taking a bold decision on the GK as well could be a big difference in claiming points. Forest made the decision in January to replace their GK and it paid off. I feel like we may need to do similar. |
I think O'Shea has looked good at times, and struggled at others - but I think that goes back to my point as to where I think the level of some of the players are at.
I almost think a lot of those recruited are almost too good for the Championship but not quite good enough for the PL. | | | |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:41 - Dec 10 with 823 views | itfcsuth |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:05 - Dec 10 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"Horribly wrong", which you've used at least twice in this thread, is a massive overstatement. Yes it could've gone better. But you're forgetting where we've come from. The jump from the Champ to the Prem is hard enough, let alone the jump from League 1 to the Prem. And we don't have the FFP room anyone else has in this league.
There's no need to overanalyse, but we shouldn't be under analysing either. You've simplified what in reality has been a very difficult to negotiate scenario. Victims of our own too-quick success. |
I think it would be hard to disagree it didn't go horribly wrong, in the same way in previous windows we have got it absolutely spot on.
Of course we have made the jumps through the divisions quick, but I'm not sure I'd agree it is a difficult to negotiate scenario?
We still spent over £100m in the window, whichever way you dress it up, that is a lot of money. | | | |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:47 - Dec 10 with 801 views | Stewart27 |
| There is no need to over analyse on 21:30 - Dec 8 by FrimleyBlue |
Yes but apparently you only get to sign players from abroad if you had your scouting network up and running for 10 years.
It also doesn't help when you have a very restrictive lists of requirements for players. Must speak English. Culture etc etc. |
The requirements have been the hallmark for KMs success.
Culture is incredibly important too. | | | |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:53 - Dec 10 with 783 views | Stewart27 |
| There is no need to over analyse on 07:48 - Dec 10 by Blue_In_Boston |
There is no such thing as a free hit. I just don't get that attitude.
If you won the lottery you wouldn't just squander the money and opportunity that you have been given. |
No you’d invest the money if you had any sense. Pretty much what we seem to be doing.
Squandering it would be signing a bunch of premier league journey boys with a lack of forward thinking. | | | |
| There is no need to over analyse on 11:05 - Dec 10 with 774 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:41 - Dec 10 by itfcsuth |
I think it would be hard to disagree it didn't go horribly wrong, in the same way in previous windows we have got it absolutely spot on.
Of course we have made the jumps through the divisions quick, but I'm not sure I'd agree it is a difficult to negotiate scenario?
We still spent over £100m in the window, whichever way you dress it up, that is a lot of money. |
You don't think it's difficult turning a League 1 team into a Prem team (and stay there) in two seasons?! Blimey. You should be a football chairman if you aren't already. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 11:11 - Dec 10 with 756 views | FrimleyBlue |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:47 - Dec 10 by Stewart27 |
The requirements have been the hallmark for KMs success.
Culture is incredibly important too. |
You are correct Stewart and I do agree with you on both parts, it's just we are in a much different game now, the prem eats you up if you don't get it quite right, and throughout most sides there's a mix of languages, cultures etc.
I can see KM's view, and it's a well respected one. but it does indeed limit your available pots in the transfer windows. |  |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 11:19 - Dec 10 with 728 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| There is no need to over analyse on 11:11 - Dec 10 by FrimleyBlue |
You are correct Stewart and I do agree with you on both parts, it's just we are in a much different game now, the prem eats you up if you don't get it quite right, and throughout most sides there's a mix of languages, cultures etc.
I can see KM's view, and it's a well respected one. but it does indeed limit your available pots in the transfer windows. |
Those other teams with a mix of languages, cultures etc. have had a lot more time to integrate those players. We needed players to fit in and understand the way we play immediately. That's why we've done what we've done this summer. See Joe's post above. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 11:21 - Dec 10 with 727 views | itfcjoe |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:41 - Dec 10 by itfcsuth |
I think it would be hard to disagree it didn't go horribly wrong, in the same way in previous windows we have got it absolutely spot on.
Of course we have made the jumps through the divisions quick, but I'm not sure I'd agree it is a difficult to negotiate scenario?
We still spent over £100m in the window, whichever way you dress it up, that is a lot of money. |
I think there is a bit of an over egging and then some bias in descriptions of players when Cajuste is seen as the star signing ("looks the one who is really capable of PL football") and Delap is just seen as a top prospect who needs support, and Omari is seen as an inconsistent prospect.
If we were to go down this season, ypu could easily see something like this happening:
Cajuste and Phillips go back
Delap, Davis and Omari sold for north of £100m
Rest of the squad remain, and we have £80m to spend in the Championship to add more quality back to the squad and utilise the loan market
The promotion, and the window we have had has transformed as a football club | |
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| There is no need to over analyse on 11:21 - Dec 10 with 725 views | portmanking |
| There is no need to over analyse on 10:41 - Dec 10 by itfcsuth |
I think it would be hard to disagree it didn't go horribly wrong, in the same way in previous windows we have got it absolutely spot on.
Of course we have made the jumps through the divisions quick, but I'm not sure I'd agree it is a difficult to negotiate scenario?
We still spent over £100m in the window, whichever way you dress it up, that is a lot of money. |
It would be a lot of money if we already had a squad of elite Championship players - but we didn't.
We had to upskill elements of our squad where we could. £100m was essential just to move one step forward, let alone two or three. | | | |
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