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The only way to stand up to Trump is to play with his ego. Zelenskyy tried it with the 'misinformation' comment but didn't quite get the tone right - he was possibly too soft. I'm fascinated to see what would happen if a world leader stood up and openly called him Putin's puppet.
Someone said earlier about withdrawing the offer of a state visit. I wouldn't be surprised if it's discussed on Sunday, and whether it would have a positive impact or fuel the flames even further.
I’m not sure what else Zelenskyy can do here, Trump wants 50% or more mineral rights and is offering nothing in return, and is quite happy to give away all Russian taken territory so 20% or more of Ukraine - that isn’t a deal it’s a complete stitch up. I thought he handled it well really.
I think today was part of the paint Zelenskyy as a problem in the hope the can oust him and put up a Russian/US stooge in a pre determined election.
And there are also some who would defend him no matter what he did.
Both he and Macron achieved absolutely nothing in getting Trump to change his stance on Ukraine. If anything, their failure to tackle him gave him carte blanche to go steaming in.
It's exactly like western Europe's attempts to appease Hitler. European leaders collectively need to change tack and stand up to him.
What do you think they should've done that would've got Trump to change his stance on Ukraine?
I’m not sure what else Zelenskyy can do here, Trump wants 50% or more mineral rights and is offering nothing in return, and is quite happy to give away all Russian taken territory so 20% or more of Ukraine - that isn’t a deal it’s a complete stitch up. I thought he handled it well really.
I think today was part of the paint Zelenskyy as a problem in the hope the can oust him and put up a Russian/US stooge in a pre determined election.
Agree. I think that's where it's going. They want Zelensky gone so a puppet leader can be installed. We've already seen this play out in the regions that Russia has occupied. They've held "elections" and installed puppet leaders. Ukraine will end up like another Belarus.
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
I'm about to appear incredibly naive but here goes. I try to avoid the media as much as I can (and therefore don't really follow the political landscape). My question is thus: Why exactly does Trump seem to be so 'friendly' to Putin and Russia? Everyone else, barring North Korea (and Belarus? I see them mentioned a lot in this), can see what Russia and Putin did and are doing, and everyone else would see Zelensky and his country in an awful position and feel empathy and a desire to help. Trump seems to be seeing an opportunity to appear the 'saviour' by offering to help to create the route to a ceasire (but only in return for extorting Zelensky of his country's mineral deposits; essentially a Mafia protection racket?), whilst trying to humiliate him in front of the world's media and try to make him grovel and be oh so thankful to President Trump for his 'help' in finding an end to the war (minus any thought that Ukraine should get their territory back, nor be invited to the negotiations themselves).
Have I got this all correct? As I type the above it seems so ludicrous and to defy any logic; maybe that in itself is why I've not managed to keep up with it.
It's a good question. One I don't have an answer to.
Is he really that transactional and just sees the dollar value of siding with Putin? Is it as trivial as everything Biden was for he is against? Is it that he holds a grudge for being slighted in ~2016? Are the allegations that he was bailed out by Russia financially true and this is the debt being repaid (I've never looked at this, it could be conspiracy, it could be true)?
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100% with Zelenskyy here! That should have been behind closed doors not on live TV. A stitch up. If those US politicians had spent three years at war & had their territory occupied, they wouldn't behave in that fashion. Very sad to watch. I hope the rest of the world stand firm for Zelenskyy.
What are Trump’s weaknesses? A thin skin, inability to listen, an inclination to bully, to have his way, a lack of comprehension, reading, empathy. He has no positives to his nature or character. He is very like Putin in that. If you wanted to build a dictator to fit in the club, a lot of what Trump is would fit very nicely.
It interests me that he is getting no criticism for his actions within America. They love him and see his behaviours as strength. I don’t and they won’t one day, but for now he’s the man who can do no wrong - unless you work for the Federal Government.
The only way to deal with Trump is to get out of the room, which Macron and Starmer to their credit did. The stakes were different for Zelenski and given his skill set and how he was set up, he stood no chance.
There is huge criticism about Trump and Co. in the US, but when you control the media well we know we'll how that works.
There are a lot of very frightened and angry people in the States. But Trump is just bullying them all.
Lost count now of the number of people in the US I have spoken to who are making plans to emigrate.
The way things are going there is going to be serious public unrest yet again. I don't want to predict a full civil war but making 300k federal employees unemployed, changes to the education system quashing LGBT+ rights and Medicare....
Trump and Vance may need to deal with turmoil domestically rather than causing it internationally...at least that is what I hope happens. Without people dying...
What do you think they should've done that would've got Trump to change his stance on Ukraine?
Nothing was going to change his mind. I was never sure why they went, but maybe they had to be seen to try and establish some accord if only to buy time.
What do you think they should've done that would've got Trump to change his stance on Ukraine?
They could have out him right on the some of the nonsense he's been spouting. Such as Ukraine starting the war, Zelensky being a dictator, etc. Keir Starmer seemed more concerned about asserting we have free speech in the UK.
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
It's a good question. One I don't have an answer to.
Is he really that transactional and just sees the dollar value of siding with Putin? Is it as trivial as everything Biden was for he is against? Is it that he holds a grudge for being slighted in ~2016? Are the allegations that he was bailed out by Russia financially true and this is the debt being repaid (I've never looked at this, it could be conspiracy, it could be true)?
Sounds like I've summed it all up accurately then at least!
They could have out him right on the some of the nonsense he's been spouting. Such as Ukraine starting the war, Zelensky being a dictator, etc. Keir Starmer seemed more concerned about asserting we have free speech in the UK.
LOL, and you think that would get Trump to change his stance?! A few home truths and he'll wake up and say, "Yeah fair point lads". Cloud Cuckoo Land.
They could have out him right on the some of the nonsense he's been spouting. Such as Ukraine starting the war, Zelensky being a dictator, etc. Keir Starmer seemed more concerned about asserting we have free speech in the UK.
Oh but he didn't call Zelensky a dictator....as he doesn't remember that.
You think this wasn't done for the Americans to watch by Trump and Vance!!!? This played out exactly like they wanted.the US saw it and more took this as Zelenksy offending the US and disrespecting the president then you can believe.
The US is so polarised but unfortunately this has played right into trumps hands. And Putin's.
I think you may be confusing 'Americans' with Trump's base. Sucking up to Trump is only going to add to the illusion that the rest of the World, particularly Europe, thinks that his words and actions are ok. The Emperor has no Clothes and his base need that pushing down their throats.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
I really don't think it's necessary to say things like "crawling up his ring piece" and "kissing his butt" (not just you but I've seen others say similar). He's not remotely doing that. You can't go in all guns blazing and have a pop at Trump, that would just be stupid and achieve nothing at best or be really bad for the UK at worst.
Starmer is playing 'Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer.' It's exactly what he had to do and what any sensible statesman would do. And he did it very well. It's also nothing like appeasing Hitler.
But there are some in this thread who would criticise Starmer whatever he did.
All in all Starmer did well. However, I do wonder if he was able to establish exactly how the war was to end. A war that Trump has bigged up about ending .
They could have out him right on the some of the nonsense he's been spouting. Such as Ukraine starting the war, Zelensky being a dictator, etc. Keir Starmer seemed more concerned about asserting we have free speech in the UK.
Starmer said what you suggested earlier this week. Trump, when questioned, said that he couldn’t remember labelling him as a dictator.
Basically put his hands over his ears and started to shout ‘La, la, La, la, I’m not listening’.
LOL, and you think that would get Trump to change his stance?! A few home truths and he'll wake up and say, "Yeah fair point lads". Cloud Cuckoo Land.
So what was the point in them going there? If its clear that Europe and the US are going to differ in their support for Ukraine going forward then we need to just get on with it and leave Trump out of it.
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
All in all Starmer did well. However, I do wonder if he was able to establish exactly how the war was to end. A war that Trump has bigged up about ending .
Perhaps wishful thinking but envoys Macron and Starmer sent over to suss Trump out keep things calm. Macron did a good job in correcting Trump. Try and reassure Zelensky that they made progress then Trump and Vance try to belittle Zelensky (as mentioned try to force a regime change) and quite rightly Zelensky had none of it.
You just cannot go down the appeasement route with Trump, we've been here before throughout history. Trump respects hard ruthless leaders hence Putin has him on his finger.
The biggest wake up call was when the US voted with Russia in the UN. Personally it's now time for Europe to align and say enough enough.
The EU is the world's largest trading bloc, it's time for it to press this advantage home. There will be a trigger point when this happens and even Trump will struggle with that.
So what was the point in them going there? If its clear that Europe and the US are going to differ in their support for Ukraine going forward then we need to just get on with it and leave Trump out of it.
It's called diplomacy. You can't just leave America out of world affairs. Or give him grief. You live in the UK, you must know that wouldn't end well for us. The Yanks, bless 'em, voted for this loon. We can't do anything about that. Starmer's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, so he has to keep his dignity, not get drawn into squabbles, do what's best for the UK and try to be the adult in the room. He did as best as anyone could, to my mind.
It's obviously big and clever to call Trump out on a football messageboard, but you can't do that in real life without consequences for your country. You'd be the first complaining if Starmer went blundering in there offending Trump and then Trump immediately hits us with massive tariffs.
It's called diplomacy. You can't just leave America out of world affairs. Or give him grief. You live in the UK, you must know that wouldn't end well for us. The Yanks, bless 'em, voted for this loon. We can't do anything about that. Starmer's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, so he has to keep his dignity, not get drawn into squabbles, do what's best for the UK and try to be the adult in the room. He did as best as anyone could, to my mind.
It's obviously big and clever to call Trump out on a football messageboard, but you can't do that in real life without consequences for your country. You'd be the first complaining if Starmer went blundering in there offending Trump and then Trump immediately hits us with massive tariffs.
I'm about to appear incredibly naive but here goes. I try to avoid the media as much as I can (and therefore don't really follow the political landscape). My question is thus: Why exactly does Trump seem to be so 'friendly' to Putin and Russia? Everyone else, barring North Korea (and Belarus? I see them mentioned a lot in this), can see what Russia and Putin did and are doing, and everyone else would see Zelensky and his country in an awful position and feel empathy and a desire to help. Trump seems to be seeing an opportunity to appear the 'saviour' by offering to help to create the route to a ceasire (but only in return for extorting Zelensky of his country's mineral deposits; essentially a Mafia protection racket?), whilst trying to humiliate him in front of the world's media and try to make him grovel and be oh so thankful to President Trump for his 'help' in finding an end to the war (minus any thought that Ukraine should get their territory back, nor be invited to the negotiations themselves).
Have I got this all correct? As I type the above it seems so ludicrous and to defy any logic; maybe that in itself is why I've not managed to keep up with it.
Not sure anyone knows tbh. If I was to guess I’d say Trump and the lackeys have no appreciation for history. For why and how America came to be where they were before he was elected. They see know ‘value’ in it because all they truly value is dollar signs. They wanted the loot for literally nothing in return. They know Putin will take the rest and I’d love to know the terms of that deal.
They see strength in power. If you don’t have it, you deserve nothing. His dressing up of Zelenski as the aggressor, a little man not wearing a suit. The man that started the war (Trumps words) because they didn’t do a deal. On the basis of that, why did America start war with Japan leaving their ships in the way of those torpedoes and bombs.Nothing.
That Ukraine is being bombarded daily with missiles and drones is meaningless to Trump and probably all Americans because the lives of innocent people in ruins in a far off place have nothing to do with them. The only interest they have is ‘making America great’ again and if that means extorting money for nothing in return, great.
They wanted him on his knees yet mocked him for his dress. Vance was the bad cop, Trump the good cop but the bag of sht couldn’t even play good cop for long. They live in a world of deceit and lies. Biden, Obama both took a pasting in the knowledge that protocol says they cannot answer back. I notice military aid is now $350bn from America.
It seems 73 million Americans voted for him and over 400million didn't even vote. The original nominations for a 78 year old convicted criminal or a senile 84 year old shows their 2 party system doesn't work . Clearly democracy in USA is dead..
Regardless of policies, Trump, Vance and his appointees and backers are just not nice people in the sense that they behave in a way that no other President and his entourage would even contemplate.
In my view, Zelensky acted perfectly properly, showed class and remained calm in contrast to Trump who got redder and redder, and angrier and angrier, with Vance clearly spoiling for a fight.
Looked at objectively, Trump humiliated himself but will blame Zelensky and may well end up ceasing all support to Ukraine out of spite, which is really what Trump's backers and supporters want.
It's called diplomacy. You can't just leave America out of world affairs. Or give him grief. You live in the UK, you must know that wouldn't end well for us. The Yanks, bless 'em, voted for this loon. We can't do anything about that. Starmer's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, so he has to keep his dignity, not get drawn into squabbles, do what's best for the UK and try to be the adult in the room. He did as best as anyone could, to my mind.
It's obviously big and clever to call Trump out on a football messageboard, but you can't do that in real life without consequences for your country. You'd be the first complaining if Starmer went blundering in there offending Trump and then Trump immediately hits us with massive tariffs.
We have a trade surplus with the US so if they imposed tariffs on us we'd just reciprocate and they would lose more than us.
This belief that America can act with impunity needs to be challenged. Sure America is the big player in the western alliance but they need allies too. China for example would surely become emboldened if that alliance became fractured.
"Blueas is a great guy, one of the best." - Donald Trump
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