| If someone knocked on your door 02:28 - May 17 with 3294 views | onceablue |
And proceeded to tell you that they have left their homeland and decided to try and have a better life elsewhere and had picked you to do the following and you had no choice
House them at your expense
Feed them at your expense
Provide Clothing at your expense
Provide other life essentials at your expense (too many to mention)
Allow them to bring their own cultures to your house which may be very different from your own
You have to do this indefinitely until they can support themselves which may take years what would you say?
If you said look mate I would love to try and help you but we just haven’t got the space or the money would you think it fair if that person then called you a racist fascist pig?
This is the issue Migration is causing round the World. It is not always anything to do with race or religion but more to do with the finances of it all and how we pay for
If the Government were honest and said look life is really unfair and we need to support the less fortunate in life to come and live in our country so we are going to put the basic rate of tax up by 2p for everyone would this be supported by the general public?
For those of you posters that would say yes I support this please donate a minimum of £400 a year to a charity of your choice to replicate in the meantime.
|  | | |  |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:31 - May 17 with 753 views | DJR |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:21 - May 17 by bluelagos |
As an aside - why does private eye still use such small type print ffs. Especially as it's readership is more elderly - you'd think they would produce a magazine that is readable. |
They probably all own the type of reading light that costs £300 and has a full page ad on the inside page of the current issue. [Post edited 17 May 9:32]
|  | | |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:33 - May 17 with 739 views | lowhouseblue |
| If someone knocked on your door on 06:19 - May 17 by Swansea_Blue |
Nice strawman, but it’s not true. Migration to the UK has on average been a net financial (and most would also say cultural) benefit to the UK, so your analogy is simply wrong.
Why do you hate foreigners so much that your sole mission in life seems to be to try and undermine immigration? Have you suffered a traumatic experience at the hands of a migrant? There are probably better ways to deal with that than channelling your hatred like this. |
very strange op. but we're three posts into the thread and we've already had two of the distortions that are always brought out.
the first is that immigration is all about people coming to work in the nhs or social care. in 2024 about 40,000 workers came under health and care worker visas. that's an absolutely tiny proportion of current net migration (700,000+ in 2024). we could still bring in health care professionals with much lower total migration.
the second is that migration is a net financial benefit to the uk. that used to be true when immigration was much lower and most arrivals were skilled and productive. it is not longer true and the obr recognises that. low skilled, low productivity, low paid arrivals are a fiscal net draw on the uk - the taxes they pay do not cover the services they consume. in addition, immigration now includes a much higher proportion of people who are not economically active. we have some 1.2 million foreign national in the uk between 18 and 64 (excluding students) who are not economically active. they are not contributing economically in any way.
If we set the test of only welcoming people (other than refugees) who would be a net economic benefit then total immigration would be very much lower than it is currently.
if there's to be a sensible discussion of the topic it needs to get beyond the well worn half truths in the first two replies. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:39 - May 17 with 733 views | NedPlimpton |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:18 - May 17 by Guthrum |
The householder replies that they are too busy watching something on Netflix and need all their money for that subscription, plus their oveeseas holiday. To a nice place, not some war- or climate-torn place wrecked by the policies of the householder's country and their allies.
And yes, I do give that kind of money to various causes each year. |
It says a lot about the OP that they think the thought of giving £400 a year might shock some people into changing their mind about showing compassion to refugees |  | | |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:40 - May 17 with 727 views | Mullet |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:33 - May 17 by lowhouseblue |
very strange op. but we're three posts into the thread and we've already had two of the distortions that are always brought out.
the first is that immigration is all about people coming to work in the nhs or social care. in 2024 about 40,000 workers came under health and care worker visas. that's an absolutely tiny proportion of current net migration (700,000+ in 2024). we could still bring in health care professionals with much lower total migration.
the second is that migration is a net financial benefit to the uk. that used to be true when immigration was much lower and most arrivals were skilled and productive. it is not longer true and the obr recognises that. low skilled, low productivity, low paid arrivals are a fiscal net draw on the uk - the taxes they pay do not cover the services they consume. in addition, immigration now includes a much higher proportion of people who are not economically active. we have some 1.2 million foreign national in the uk between 18 and 64 (excluding students) who are not economically active. they are not contributing economically in any way.
If we set the test of only welcoming people (other than refugees) who would be a net economic benefit then total immigration would be very much lower than it is currently.
if there's to be a sensible discussion of the topic it needs to get beyond the well worn half truths in the first two replies. |
The NHS and care work are given as examples. It’s shorthand for all the menial low paid jobs people don’t want to do that are often filled my immigrants. Same as in any country.
If we are going to bogged down in details, at least don’t dismiss arguments so poorly. Likewise, the Tories have destroyed the country, Brexit has compounded this misery. If we want to invoke the WW2 stuff beloved of populists and fascists in this country, then we need manpower to rebuild it, to cope with the ageing population etc. |  |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:44 - May 17 with 720 views | bluelagos |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:31 - May 17 by DJR |
They probably all own the type of reading light that costs £300 and has a full page ad on the inside page of the current issue. [Post edited 17 May 9:32]
|
Pmsl - yeah, private eye probably has a share in the light company too :-) |  |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 10:07 - May 17 with 674 views | Swansea_Blue |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:15 - May 17 by bluelagos |
I would add we all have a choice how we react to people, be they migrants, refugees or fellow posters.
We can be kind and empathetic - or we can be hostile and act like a bit of a cnt. Your choice onceablue.
Enjoy yer day. [Post edited 17 May 9:19]
|
And that’s all there is to it really. As I spent a chunk of my career in universities, I worked and met with literally hundreds of immigrants. Most were great, the occasional one was an arsehole. So no different to UK nationals. Most people who were a pain in the backside were actually Brits.
And, as you have, I’ve also experienced what it’s like to be an immigrant. I wouldn’t have wanted or expected to be attacked just because through chance I was born somewhere else.
Ultimately, it’s a choice how you behave and I found most immigrants to be warm, polite and generous. Some won’t be pleasant, but as we’re increasingly seeing we’ve got plenty of mean spirited Brits of our own. |  |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 10:09 - May 17 with 668 views | Pendejo |
| If someone knocked on your door on 03:51 - May 17 by Kropotkin123 |
That isn’t true, and it’s not the core issue with migration. If it were, governments would have stopped migration by now - it would be in their interest and relatively easy to do through caps.
The real problem is that migration acts as a plaster over deeper, systemic issues. As I’ve said before, it’s fundamentally about supply and demand. Take healthcare as an example: there’s a strong demand for healthcare workers, yet the UK fails to train or retain enough domestic staff. Why? Because the hours are long, the conditions are tough, and the pay is relatively poor. As a result, many who could do the job either never enter the profession or leave to pursue something else.
Without immigration, the only solution would be to improve pay, conditions, education, and training in order to attract and retain domestic workers.
But we’re not willing to make those investments - largely because doing so would require higher taxes on the wealthy and redistributing wealth from the top 1%. Instead, we turn to immigration to bring in foreign workers who are willing to accept these conditions. This, in turn, keeps wages low and reduces opportunities for good domestic careers - not just in healthcare, but across many sectors.
In some cases, like seasonal fruit picking, such an approach might be intentional and manageable. But at the current scale and across so many industries, it’s unsustainable. Artificially suppressed wages, without correction via domestic supply and demand, lead to broader social and economic problems - such as people being unable to afford homes, start families, or build stable futures.
Aside from this, integrating so many cultures into the UK, at such a rate, is basically impossible and leads to social strife, as you are adequately demonstrating through your emotional, incorrect, but still insightful post. [Post edited 17 May 3:52]
|
I support what you've written and would add / ask...
Is the pay relatively poor or is it the cost of living is ridiculously high?
Ever since Thatchos allowed right to buy without replacement of social housing stock. Housing, which is a necessity, became a commodity, a medium to long term investment vehicle. Driving up the core cost in the oft quoted cost of living. Much of this commodity after purchase sits empty, as having tenants can be complex? Further restricting housing stock.
This is maybe a route cause of the need to recruit from overseas.
When we moved to Ipswich from London, my father's salary was sufficient to buy a 3 bed semi on Radcliffe Drive at a time when lending was a hard 3.5 x salary. To buy the flat I live in (SE London) would take more than 8x salary after 10% deposit.
So when we moved to Ipswich my mother took on part-time jobs for little bit extra spending money, now a wife / partner or significant other will need to take on a full time job. Havings kids and holding down 2 jobs can be tricky / expensive; so why bother having kids? Hence, lower birth rate and need for immigration.
And whilst they didn't knock on our door, we have housed more than 1 migrant over the years, feeding and clothing them. My wife runs a CIC which I support in excess of £400pa.
Compassion shouldn't come with a price tag.
There appears to be a nation out there willing to pull up the drawbridge and become insular ( Brexit ).
"Why should I feed other people's kids?"
How long before that becomes "educate or provide health care for?"
Largely ignoring any benefit they got from other people contributing so they could receive such benefits as kids.
Sorry to ramble on... All I needed to say was...
Relatively poor pay can also be stated as ridiculously expensive housing costs |  |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 10:32 - May 17 with 634 views | Horsham |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:16 - May 17 by bsw72 |
Surely for a 2% rise in income tax you must be on £32,570 per year, as generally £12,570 is your tax free allowance and £400 is 2% of £20,000. |
But if my taxable income is less or more than £20k then £400 is the wrong amount.
That’s applicable to practically everyone. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| If someone knocked on your door on 10:46 - May 17 with 584 views | Swansea_Blue |
| If someone knocked on your door on 10:09 - May 17 by Pendejo |
I support what you've written and would add / ask...
Is the pay relatively poor or is it the cost of living is ridiculously high?
Ever since Thatchos allowed right to buy without replacement of social housing stock. Housing, which is a necessity, became a commodity, a medium to long term investment vehicle. Driving up the core cost in the oft quoted cost of living. Much of this commodity after purchase sits empty, as having tenants can be complex? Further restricting housing stock.
This is maybe a route cause of the need to recruit from overseas.
When we moved to Ipswich from London, my father's salary was sufficient to buy a 3 bed semi on Radcliffe Drive at a time when lending was a hard 3.5 x salary. To buy the flat I live in (SE London) would take more than 8x salary after 10% deposit.
So when we moved to Ipswich my mother took on part-time jobs for little bit extra spending money, now a wife / partner or significant other will need to take on a full time job. Havings kids and holding down 2 jobs can be tricky / expensive; so why bother having kids? Hence, lower birth rate and need for immigration.
And whilst they didn't knock on our door, we have housed more than 1 migrant over the years, feeding and clothing them. My wife runs a CIC which I support in excess of £400pa.
Compassion shouldn't come with a price tag.
There appears to be a nation out there willing to pull up the drawbridge and become insular ( Brexit ).
"Why should I feed other people's kids?"
How long before that becomes "educate or provide health care for?"
Largely ignoring any benefit they got from other people contributing so they could receive such benefits as kids.
Sorry to ramble on... All I needed to say was...
Relatively poor pay can also be stated as ridiculously expensive housing costs |
“Compassion shouldn't come with a price tag.”
Absolutely. Let’s not forget that many families took in over 200,000 Ukrainian refugees not so long ago. There are still a lot of people willing to help those in need, thankfully. They’re the ones we should be focusing on, not wasting energy over people who only want to drive wedges between us. | |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 10:48 - May 17 with 574 views | lowhouseblue |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:40 - May 17 by Mullet |
The NHS and care work are given as examples. It’s shorthand for all the menial low paid jobs people don’t want to do that are often filled my immigrants. Same as in any country.
If we are going to bogged down in details, at least don’t dismiss arguments so poorly. Likewise, the Tories have destroyed the country, Brexit has compounded this misery. If we want to invoke the WW2 stuff beloved of populists and fascists in this country, then we need manpower to rebuild it, to cope with the ageing population etc. |
"we are going to bogged down in details". really? you don't think that deciding the right level of immigration is all about the details.? beyond refugees, it can't be turned into a moral, good v. bad, issue - it's all about the details and the benefits v. costs.
"menial low paid jobs people don’t want to do". as a society we shouldn't accept that as good enough. what are the people "who don't want to do" these jobs doing instead? we have huge levels of economic inactivity and benefit dependency in this country and justifying mass immigration of low skilled people to do menial low paid jobs in order to let that continue is appalling. a strategy based on importing low skilled low productivity labour is economically disastrous - gdp per head is already falling, it's a recipe for stagnation and falling living standards. even on the basis of your argument that we need foreigners to do
our menial jobs, how do you justify the 1.2 million foreign nationals that are economically inactive? how do you justify the fact that these people we've brought into be our 'menials' are a lifetime fiscal net negative draw?
also, net immigration is cumulative. in the past 4 years we've added 3 million people via this route? isn't that enough to do all your your menial jobs? do we need 3 million more? do we need that level of inflow on an on-going basis?
in terms of rebuilding - one of our biggest challenges is solving our decades long housing crisis. how have we accommodated an extra 3 million people in 4 years without making the housing crisis much worse?
any way the sun is shining and i'm off out into the wilds of north suffolk to look at art. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 10:56 - May 17 with 559 views | Mullet |
| If someone knocked on your door on 10:48 - May 17 by lowhouseblue |
"we are going to bogged down in details". really? you don't think that deciding the right level of immigration is all about the details.? beyond refugees, it can't be turned into a moral, good v. bad, issue - it's all about the details and the benefits v. costs.
"menial low paid jobs people don’t want to do". as a society we shouldn't accept that as good enough. what are the people "who don't want to do" these jobs doing instead? we have huge levels of economic inactivity and benefit dependency in this country and justifying mass immigration of low skilled people to do menial low paid jobs in order to let that continue is appalling. a strategy based on importing low skilled low productivity labour is economically disastrous - gdp per head is already falling, it's a recipe for stagnation and falling living standards. even on the basis of your argument that we need foreigners to do
our menial jobs, how do you justify the 1.2 million foreign nationals that are economically inactive? how do you justify the fact that these people we've brought into be our 'menials' are a lifetime fiscal net negative draw?
also, net immigration is cumulative. in the past 4 years we've added 3 million people via this route? isn't that enough to do all your your menial jobs? do we need 3 million more? do we need that level of inflow on an on-going basis?
in terms of rebuilding - one of our biggest challenges is solving our decades long housing crisis. how have we accommodated an extra 3 million people in 4 years without making the housing crisis much worse?
any way the sun is shining and i'm off out into the wilds of north suffolk to look at art. |
I think if you're going to criticse people's point in bad faith you're probably not in a position to decide that. Especially as we have so many people radicalised to a binary position of nothing but zero. Just look at the response to Starmer's announcement around young people being able to study and work in Europe again today.
Economic inactivity due to long term deindustrialisation, NIMBYism, poor health and education amongst several regions thanks to Tory short-termism are all issues. Solving that in a stroke is not possible. Suggesting that immigrants are making it worse without acknowledging they are also helping to alleviate those things is pretty dishonest. | |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 12:38 - May 17 with 462 views | Kropotkin123 |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:33 - May 17 by lowhouseblue |
very strange op. but we're three posts into the thread and we've already had two of the distortions that are always brought out.
the first is that immigration is all about people coming to work in the nhs or social care. in 2024 about 40,000 workers came under health and care worker visas. that's an absolutely tiny proportion of current net migration (700,000+ in 2024). we could still bring in health care professionals with much lower total migration.
the second is that migration is a net financial benefit to the uk. that used to be true when immigration was much lower and most arrivals were skilled and productive. it is not longer true and the obr recognises that. low skilled, low productivity, low paid arrivals are a fiscal net draw on the uk - the taxes they pay do not cover the services they consume. in addition, immigration now includes a much higher proportion of people who are not economically active. we have some 1.2 million foreign national in the uk between 18 and 64 (excluding students) who are not economically active. they are not contributing economically in any way.
If we set the test of only welcoming people (other than refugees) who would be a net economic benefit then total immigration would be very much lower than it is currently.
if there's to be a sensible discussion of the topic it needs to get beyond the well worn half truths in the first two replies. |
To illustrate a point through 40,000 out of 700,000 is not a distortion. Those figures absolutely justify my use and focus. Furthermore, in 2023, 20% of NHS workers are foreign born compared to a base to 14% foreign born nationals in the UK. In 2016, 13% of NHS workers were foreign born. A sensible discussion definitely includes illustrations of points using healthcare as an example.
Can you provide a link to the 1.2m foreign nationals not being economically active? I'd like to read this article first hand.
I think your focus on the low pid work is misleading. Gaps, such as picking fruit and veg is low pay and a lack of labour here causes significant problems for industries that are born out in other metrics, such as increased food prices due to domestic shortfall or increased costs. The point here is it is not the taxes that are covering the services they consume it is the reduction of costs to other sections of society or simply not letting undesirable industries fail.
My wife is a Canadian national and she was in a lower paid retail job when she was here. As part of her visa we had to pay thousands (twice) in order to cover potential NHS usage. Like many in her situation, she was fit and healthy and never used the NHS. Many low paid workers operate like that, coming in, paying for services, paying taxes, and never using the services they pay for, even though their contribution is low. I think this is missed by your data and focus. |  |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 12:53 - May 17 with 429 views | RadioOrwell |
| If someone knocked on your door on 08:50 - May 17 by StokieBlue |
You're getting pretty desperate in your trolling efforts now.
This one is especially poor.
And this part is rather unpleasant:
"Allow them to bring their own cultures to your house which may be very different from your own"
SB [Post edited 17 May 8:50]
|
It's a blessing that Brits never do that in Spain. |  | | |
| If someone knocked on your door on 12:57 - May 17 with 416 views | Kropotkin123 |
| If someone knocked on your door on 10:09 - May 17 by Pendejo |
I support what you've written and would add / ask...
Is the pay relatively poor or is it the cost of living is ridiculously high?
Ever since Thatchos allowed right to buy without replacement of social housing stock. Housing, which is a necessity, became a commodity, a medium to long term investment vehicle. Driving up the core cost in the oft quoted cost of living. Much of this commodity after purchase sits empty, as having tenants can be complex? Further restricting housing stock.
This is maybe a route cause of the need to recruit from overseas.
When we moved to Ipswich from London, my father's salary was sufficient to buy a 3 bed semi on Radcliffe Drive at a time when lending was a hard 3.5 x salary. To buy the flat I live in (SE London) would take more than 8x salary after 10% deposit.
So when we moved to Ipswich my mother took on part-time jobs for little bit extra spending money, now a wife / partner or significant other will need to take on a full time job. Havings kids and holding down 2 jobs can be tricky / expensive; so why bother having kids? Hence, lower birth rate and need for immigration.
And whilst they didn't knock on our door, we have housed more than 1 migrant over the years, feeding and clothing them. My wife runs a CIC which I support in excess of £400pa.
Compassion shouldn't come with a price tag.
There appears to be a nation out there willing to pull up the drawbridge and become insular ( Brexit ).
"Why should I feed other people's kids?"
How long before that becomes "educate or provide health care for?"
Largely ignoring any benefit they got from other people contributing so they could receive such benefits as kids.
Sorry to ramble on... All I needed to say was...
Relatively poor pay can also be stated as ridiculously expensive housing costs |
Absolutely, a statement in relation to pay is always in a context of purchasing power. That context is not luxury goods which have fallen relative to income over the past 30-40 years - TVs, computers, etc. It is in relation to housing. Rent as a percentage of income has grown, as has the cost of a house in the places people are required to work.
Cost of living is ridiculously high, but people need to realise that people of a certain age, without help from parents are asset poor and will remain so, even if they have what would traditionally be considered respectable jobs, such as going to uni and qualifying to become a nurse. | |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 12:58 - May 17 with 417 views | redrickstuhaart |
And what if they turned up at your door, clearly hurt saying they got mugged outside. Would you give them a cup of tea, let them use your phone and give them a tenner for a taxi home?
Ignorant muppet. | | | |
| If someone knocked on your door on 12:59 - May 17 with 411 views | leitrimblue |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:33 - May 17 by lowhouseblue |
very strange op. but we're three posts into the thread and we've already had two of the distortions that are always brought out.
the first is that immigration is all about people coming to work in the nhs or social care. in 2024 about 40,000 workers came under health and care worker visas. that's an absolutely tiny proportion of current net migration (700,000+ in 2024). we could still bring in health care professionals with much lower total migration.
the second is that migration is a net financial benefit to the uk. that used to be true when immigration was much lower and most arrivals were skilled and productive. it is not longer true and the obr recognises that. low skilled, low productivity, low paid arrivals are a fiscal net draw on the uk - the taxes they pay do not cover the services they consume. in addition, immigration now includes a much higher proportion of people who are not economically active. we have some 1.2 million foreign national in the uk between 18 and 64 (excluding students) who are not economically active. they are not contributing economically in any way.
If we set the test of only welcoming people (other than refugees) who would be a net economic benefit then total immigration would be very much lower than it is currently.
if there's to be a sensible discussion of the topic it needs to get beyond the well worn half truths in the first two replies. |
Great critique of the three posts pointing out the inadequacies of the OP.
I'm just wondering if you would like to take a crack at critiquing the OP?
Would be very interested to see if your critiquing skills are capable of being used against weird xenophobic rants |  | | |
| If someone knocked on your door on 13:34 - May 17 with 370 views | eireblue |
| If someone knocked on your door on 12:59 - May 17 by leitrimblue |
Great critique of the three posts pointing out the inadequacies of the OP.
I'm just wondering if you would like to take a crack at critiquing the OP?
Would be very interested to see if your critiquing skills are capable of being used against weird xenophobic rants |
That is the challenge for Lowhouse.
He has to turn Benters away from reform.
Sure he can go critiquing people that aren’t going to vote reform. That’s easy.
But can he apply all his advice that he gives to people that aren’t going to vote reform, and apply it to people that are. |  | | |
| If someone knocked on your door on 14:05 - May 17 with 330 views | Herbivore |
| If someone knocked on your door on 09:33 - May 17 by lowhouseblue |
very strange op. but we're three posts into the thread and we've already had two of the distortions that are always brought out.
the first is that immigration is all about people coming to work in the nhs or social care. in 2024 about 40,000 workers came under health and care worker visas. that's an absolutely tiny proportion of current net migration (700,000+ in 2024). we could still bring in health care professionals with much lower total migration.
the second is that migration is a net financial benefit to the uk. that used to be true when immigration was much lower and most arrivals were skilled and productive. it is not longer true and the obr recognises that. low skilled, low productivity, low paid arrivals are a fiscal net draw on the uk - the taxes they pay do not cover the services they consume. in addition, immigration now includes a much higher proportion of people who are not economically active. we have some 1.2 million foreign national in the uk between 18 and 64 (excluding students) who are not economically active. they are not contributing economically in any way.
If we set the test of only welcoming people (other than refugees) who would be a net economic benefit then total immigration would be very much lower than it is currently.
if there's to be a sensible discussion of the topic it needs to get beyond the well worn half truths in the first two replies. |
Why are you cherry picking 2024, when immigration numbers generally are predicted to be lower? The number of health and social care worker visas in the preceding years was hundreds of thousands: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migration-advisory-committee-report-o
Edit: A couple of highlights, firstly, most of the increase in work related visas in the spike years was down to health and social care visas: "Work visas issued rose from 125,000 in 2021 to 467,000 2 years later. Of this 342,000 increase, 57,000 was on the main Skilled Worker (SW) route and 285,000 was on the Health and Care worker (H&CW) route".
Second, because you still try to claim that most of the rise in immigration can't be explained by students or health and social care workers: "It demonstrates that the substantial increase in net migration since 2020 is largely explained by 3 factors: an increase in work visas (particularly in health & social care), an increase in student visas, and the opening of humanitarian routes such as the British National (Overseas) (BN(O)) and Ukraine schemes". [Post edited 17 May 14:17]
|  |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 14:34 - May 17 with 288 views | Herbivore |
| If someone knocked on your door on 12:59 - May 17 by leitrimblue |
Great critique of the three posts pointing out the inadequacies of the OP.
I'm just wondering if you would like to take a crack at critiquing the OP?
Would be very interested to see if your critiquing skills are capable of being used against weird xenophobic rants |
Good luck with that! | |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 15:52 - May 17 with 241 views | lowhouseblue |
| If someone knocked on your door on 14:05 - May 17 by Herbivore |
Why are you cherry picking 2024, when immigration numbers generally are predicted to be lower? The number of health and social care worker visas in the preceding years was hundreds of thousands: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/migration-advisory-committee-report-o
Edit: A couple of highlights, firstly, most of the increase in work related visas in the spike years was down to health and social care visas: "Work visas issued rose from 125,000 in 2021 to 467,000 2 years later. Of this 342,000 increase, 57,000 was on the main Skilled Worker (SW) route and 285,000 was on the Health and Care worker (H&CW) route".
Second, because you still try to claim that most of the rise in immigration can't be explained by students or health and social care workers: "It demonstrates that the substantial increase in net migration since 2020 is largely explained by 3 factors: an increase in work visas (particularly in health & social care), an increase in student visas, and the opening of humanitarian routes such as the British National (Overseas) (BN(O)) and Ukraine schemes". [Post edited 17 May 14:17]
|
i'm not cherry picking 2024. as you know i usually quote the four years from 2021 to 2024 when total net migration was some 3 million. the number of people coming to work on health and social care visas is shown at para 54 here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6821f334ced319d02c906103/restorin
2023 was the only year when it exceeds 100,000. 2022 it was about 80,000, and in 2021 it was the same as in 2024. so over those 4 years the number of people arriving to work on health and social care visas totalled some 300,000. but that isn't the net immigration of those workers - others will have completed their visas and left in the same period. so the contribution of that visa group to net immigration in the 4 year period is less than 10% of the total.
the numbers you are quoting includes a big rise in dependents - and again the numbers you quote don't allow for others leaving so they don't equate to net immigration (again the 3million figure).
we've done the student visa issue to death. all people who initially arrive on student visas are being counted here. but the rise in net immigration associated with this group is almost entirely explained by people staying on once they have ceased to be students. the net immigration is not primarily the result of more overseas students being in education here, it's lots of ex students getting graduate visas and staying here to do largely low skill work. the graduate visa is not a necessary consequence of overseas students - if it had never been invented the number of students would be the same but net immigration would have been much lower. but you know this. it's a distortion to pretend that the graduate visa is the same as people actually being in education here. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 16:03 - May 17 with 225 views | Herbivore |
| If someone knocked on your door on 15:52 - May 17 by lowhouseblue |
i'm not cherry picking 2024. as you know i usually quote the four years from 2021 to 2024 when total net migration was some 3 million. the number of people coming to work on health and social care visas is shown at para 54 here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6821f334ced319d02c906103/restorin
2023 was the only year when it exceeds 100,000. 2022 it was about 80,000, and in 2021 it was the same as in 2024. so over those 4 years the number of people arriving to work on health and social care visas totalled some 300,000. but that isn't the net immigration of those workers - others will have completed their visas and left in the same period. so the contribution of that visa group to net immigration in the 4 year period is less than 10% of the total.
the numbers you are quoting includes a big rise in dependents - and again the numbers you quote don't allow for others leaving so they don't equate to net immigration (again the 3million figure).
we've done the student visa issue to death. all people who initially arrive on student visas are being counted here. but the rise in net immigration associated with this group is almost entirely explained by people staying on once they have ceased to be students. the net immigration is not primarily the result of more overseas students being in education here, it's lots of ex students getting graduate visas and staying here to do largely low skill work. the graduate visa is not a necessary consequence of overseas students - if it had never been invented the number of students would be the same but net immigration would have been much lower. but you know this. it's a distortion to pretend that the graduate visa is the same as people actually being in education here. |
The irony of you accusing me of distortion, ffs. That's another irony meter gone. And you weren't cherry picking 2024 when you said "in 2024 about 40,000 workers came under health and care worker visas"? Okay, mate.
Edit: And glad you finally agree that there is a significant impact on net migration from far fewer people who entered the UK as students leaving each year compared with the number entering the UK as students. We got there in the end. [Post edited 17 May 16:08]
| |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 16:11 - May 17 with 197 views | lowhouseblue |
| If someone knocked on your door on 16:03 - May 17 by Herbivore |
The irony of you accusing me of distortion, ffs. That's another irony meter gone. And you weren't cherry picking 2024 when you said "in 2024 about 40,000 workers came under health and care worker visas"? Okay, mate.
Edit: And glad you finally agree that there is a significant impact on net migration from far fewer people who entered the UK as students leaving each year compared with the number entering the UK as students. We got there in the end. [Post edited 17 May 16:08]
|
you are distorting the figures. you say 'it's all health care and skilled workers' - when primarily what has changed is a huge increase in dependents but you just lump them into the one number. you say 'it's all students' - when primarily what has changed is that in 2020 the graduate visa was invented and meant that a huge number of non-students stayed on - but again you lump them into the one number. it's any trick you can think of to justify the status quo. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 16:39 - May 17 with 161 views | Herbivore |
| If someone knocked on your door on 16:11 - May 17 by lowhouseblue |
you are distorting the figures. you say 'it's all health care and skilled workers' - when primarily what has changed is a huge increase in dependents but you just lump them into the one number. you say 'it's all students' - when primarily what has changed is that in 2020 the graduate visa was invented and meant that a huge number of non-students stayed on - but again you lump them into the one number. it's any trick you can think of to justify the status quo. |
Which of the two things I've never said is it, because it clearly can't be ALL students or ALL health and social care workers? If you're going to lie, misrepresent, and engage with a staggering level of intellectual dishonesty, at least try to be consistent with it. I'm not the one using tricks here, when calculating net migration it's a simple numbers game of those entering and those leaving, so the fact that students come in and then don't leave so that we've had (though possibly not for much longer) more student arrivals than students leaving clearly impacts net migration. The ONS, as well as basic common sense, backs me up on this one. BuT tHeY aREn'T sTudEntS aNyMoRe is not the devastating counter attack you seem to think when we're dealing with a basic head count of who is coming in and who is leaving. Clearly you're not going to agree and I'll let others decide what they make of that. | |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 19:48 - May 17 with 90 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Seriously, do one! |  |
| |
| If someone knocked on your door on 20:05 - May 17 with 75 views | Swansea_Blue |
| If someone knocked on your door on 12:38 - May 17 by Kropotkin123 |
To illustrate a point through 40,000 out of 700,000 is not a distortion. Those figures absolutely justify my use and focus. Furthermore, in 2023, 20% of NHS workers are foreign born compared to a base to 14% foreign born nationals in the UK. In 2016, 13% of NHS workers were foreign born. A sensible discussion definitely includes illustrations of points using healthcare as an example.
Can you provide a link to the 1.2m foreign nationals not being economically active? I'd like to read this article first hand.
I think your focus on the low pid work is misleading. Gaps, such as picking fruit and veg is low pay and a lack of labour here causes significant problems for industries that are born out in other metrics, such as increased food prices due to domestic shortfall or increased costs. The point here is it is not the taxes that are covering the services they consume it is the reduction of costs to other sections of society or simply not letting undesirable industries fail.
My wife is a Canadian national and she was in a lower paid retail job when she was here. As part of her visa we had to pay thousands (twice) in order to cover potential NHS usage. Like many in her situation, she was fit and healthy and never used the NHS. Many low paid workers operate like that, coming in, paying for services, paying taxes, and never using the services they pay for, even though their contribution is low. I think this is missed by your data and focus. |
Is he wanging on about low pay again? The evidence shows that the median pay of immigrants is higher than UK nationals (which makes obvious sense if you actually think about it, as a lot come here on the high skilled visa into decent jobs such as doctors, engineers, management consultants, academics, etc. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
