| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? 11:18 - Jun 6 with 1750 views | Matt_Netherlands |
Before anyone gets trigger finger with the downvotes, in my opinion I wouldn’t have wanted anyone else at the helm even if we did a Southampton. But a couple of reflections:
Squad harmony / gel: You’d have to think McKenna would hands down get more out of that group (or a significant chunk of it) than anyone else
Recruitment: Think we all agree has been a bit mixed. Would a different manager have taken another approach eg tapped into overseas markets
System and tactics: I think one criticism this year has been that we were slow at times to change system or react, which is perhaps why some felt we got progressively less competitive as the season went on.
Summary: There May have been some incremental gains but I think the gulf between us and survival would’ve been too big for any manager.
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:21 - Jun 6 with 1531 views | J2BLUE |
Possibly someone like Allardyce but I think directionally and long term we're much better off with McKenna. If we go up again and he's still here I think he will have learnt a lot and know exactly what we need to compete. |  |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:23 - Jun 6 with 1516 views | Herbivore |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:21 - Jun 6 by J2BLUE |
Possibly someone like Allardyce but I think directionally and long term we're much better off with McKenna. If we go up again and he's still here I think he will have learnt a lot and know exactly what we need to compete. |
Even someone like Allardyce wouldn't have kept us up. We might have joylessly ground out a few more points but nowhere near enough to actually survive. The gap in quality and depth was just too big. |  |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:24 - Jun 6 with 1510 views | Nutkins_Return |
Next to no chance in my opinion. McKenna for me is still our best asset. The reality is injuries really made it next to impossible. McKenna will give thumbs up on targets but he isn't out there finding them so little change there.
Systems and Tactics would be the only major change potential. Could a Moyes or Dyche style keep us up. For me we would have had no chance with this approach with our squad. Would have been more of a Moyes complete failure at Sunderland situation (not really Moyes fault per se).
Anyway that's my take. To be honest I don't think this helps anything now. Let's draw a line and move on. |  |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:25 - Jun 6 with 1483 views | J2BLUE |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:23 - Jun 6 by Herbivore |
Even someone like Allardyce wouldn't have kept us up. We might have joylessly ground out a few more points but nowhere near enough to actually survive. The gap in quality and depth was just too big. |
I agree. It may well have been closer though.
We want to emulate Brighton or Brentford rather than Pulis era Stoke though don't we so there really is no contest. We have the right man. | |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:26 - Jun 6 with 1478 views | thebooks |
Recruitment– I doubt our (in)ability to find players abroad is anything to do with KM.
I think KM tried every tactic in the book — parking the bus, front foot, 532, 4231, 343 etc. etc.
I just think it was too big a step up from L1 a couple of seasons back – we had a lot of catching up to do. Pair that with injuries, some marginal events in key moments (e.g. Jack Clarke hitting the post at Fulham) and even the order of fixtures, and we fell short. |  | | |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:26 - Jun 6 with 1472 views | monty_radio |
I think that maybe the days when a Sam Allardyce or similar, or even a Mick McCarthy could keep you up by keeping them out are gone. Perhaps we might have conceded fewer and lost a couple less, but the outcome wouldn't have changed much. In the end I can't see beyond the fact that we just weren't good enough to trouble what the Prem has become. | |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:27 - Jun 6 with 1461 views | nodge_blue |
No. Ive come to think that with the quality of even a side like Wolves, we were pretty much doomed. |  |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:41 - Jun 6 with 1363 views | RobTheMonk |
Out of who was available, probably not. |  | | |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:01 - Jun 6 with 1266 views | textbackup |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:23 - Jun 6 by Herbivore |
Even someone like Allardyce wouldn't have kept us up. We might have joylessly ground out a few more points but nowhere near enough to actually survive. The gap in quality and depth was just too big. |
Joylessly ground out a few more points vs joylessly not grounding out more points.
Those games vs Leicester and Southampton ruined us. Had we beaten them a couple of times the mountain to climb wasn’t as big as it ultimately was.
Yet strangely the games vs them still had people saying they weren’t must wins games. |  |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:03 - Jun 6 with 1241 views | textbackup |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:41 - Jun 6 by RobTheMonk |
Out of who was available, probably not. |
Who was available, Do we know? | |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:03 - Jun 6 with 1244 views | smithy91 |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:24 - Jun 6 by Nutkins_Return |
Next to no chance in my opinion. McKenna for me is still our best asset. The reality is injuries really made it next to impossible. McKenna will give thumbs up on targets but he isn't out there finding them so little change there.
Systems and Tactics would be the only major change potential. Could a Moyes or Dyche style keep us up. For me we would have had no chance with this approach with our squad. Would have been more of a Moyes complete failure at Sunderland situation (not really Moyes fault per se).
Anyway that's my take. To be honest I don't think this helps anything now. Let's draw a line and move on. |
I know some fans dont like talking about it, but dont forget some of the refereeing/VAR-ing which shafted us in the first few months, which arguably denied some early momentum and putting back to back wins together. |  | | |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:07 - Jun 6 with 1207 views | Herbivore |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:01 - Jun 6 by textbackup |
Joylessly ground out a few more points vs joylessly not grounding out more points.
Those games vs Leicester and Southampton ruined us. Had we beaten them a couple of times the mountain to climb wasn’t as big as it ultimately was.
Yet strangely the games vs them still had people saying they weren’t must wins games. |
Even if we'd taken maximum points from those games - which we have no right to expect - we'd have been 6 points adrift still. Would you have taken a season of Allardyce style grinding to still fall 6 points short, and probably having built a squad full of journeymen with no scope for development? Maybe you would, although you'd still have spent the season being a massive whingebag I imagine. | |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:09 - Jun 6 with 1197 views | homer_123 |
Well, the answer is yes. Another manager, somewhere, might have got us to stay up, would be churlish to suggest otherwise.
That doesn't mean I would have wanted any other manager then or now to be honest.
It's an easy game to play in hindsight. [Post edited 6 Jun 12:10]
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:12 - Jun 6 with 1169 views | textbackup |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:07 - Jun 6 by Herbivore |
Even if we'd taken maximum points from those games - which we have no right to expect - we'd have been 6 points adrift still. Would you have taken a season of Allardyce style grinding to still fall 6 points short, and probably having built a squad full of journeymen with no scope for development? Maybe you would, although you'd still have spent the season being a massive whingebag I imagine. |
If I hated watching football under MM I think you have your answer.
In those massive games we were a real let down though, I think A N Other could have grinded out a result in those.
Then as you say, 6 points adrift, could we have gone to some places/had home games where we maybe did get over the line.
We’ll never know.
I’d rather face a championship season with KM in the seat though. | |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:22 - Jun 6 with 1094 views | burnbudgiesburn |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:12 - Jun 6 by textbackup |
If I hated watching football under MM I think you have your answer.
In those massive games we were a real let down though, I think A N Other could have grinded out a result in those.
Then as you say, 6 points adrift, could we have gone to some places/had home games where we maybe did get over the line.
We’ll never know.
I’d rather face a championship season with KM in the seat though. |
I felt we actually played better against Leicester & Saints this season than we did in the championship.
2/12 points was nowhere near a good enough return if we wanted to stay up but even though we got 8/12 points in the Champ season it felt we were the inferior team just up from L1 battling against Prem squads. | | | |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:43 - Jun 6 with 981 views | Radlett_blue |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:21 - Jun 6 by J2BLUE |
Possibly someone like Allardyce but I think directionally and long term we're much better off with McKenna. If we go up again and he's still here I think he will have learnt a lot and know exactly what we need to compete. |
McKenna has built a team around a certain style of play. Throwing that away and becoming a long ball, low block team would have been counter productive & also wouldn't have kept us up.
Like the other 2 promoted clubs, our players weren't nearly good enough. McKenna certainly made some mistakes & my concern is that we became less effective as the season went on so clearly we weren't learning from our defeats, or maybe it was just down to a feeling that we weren't good enough at this level.
Recruitment was mixed, but we couldn't afford proven PL players unless they were old and/or had injury issues. Hence the loan signing of Phillips, which failed. Muric was the worst signing; presumably McKenna saw him as a player of potential, which he undoubtedly is, but he ran out of patience after too many mistakes. |  |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:44 - Jun 6 with 970 views | NedPlimpton |
Who knows
Steve Cooper was making a decent fist of it at a club he was never really wanted at, before getting the boot
Could a manager with PL experience have done similar with us? It's possible, but McKenna will only come back stronger from this and is the only man I'd want to give that opportunity to |  | | |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:56 - Jun 6 with 889 views | HighgateBlue |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:09 - Jun 6 by homer_123 |
Well, the answer is yes. Another manager, somewhere, might have got us to stay up, would be churlish to suggest otherwise.
That doesn't mean I would have wanted any other manager then or now to be honest.
It's an easy game to play in hindsight. [Post edited 6 Jun 12:10]
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Completely agree with all of this.
If we had the same roll of the dice another 20 times, we would stay up in one of those scenarios, with KMac at the helm.
But we would have needed around 40 points. That would have been quite an ask. That's surely 9 or 10 wins, and we only managed 4. Turning 6 losses into wins would've been needed (or 5, plus some additional losses to draws or draws to wins). We can all think of a few games that might have gone differently but for the 'fine margins', but possibly not more than half a dozen.
What is reasonably clear is that we would have needed:
- fewer injuries. Without Burns and Ogbene injured, I doubt we would have recruited Hutch AND Philogene AND Clarke AND Enciso. That would have freed up some funds. Without Axel injured, we would have had a more settled right hand side, would not have 'needed' Godfrey, and O'Shea could have played in his natural position more often. Without Cajuste being less than 100% fit he would have been quite the player I feel (but query whether we'd have got him in the first place)
- a very high quality GK. You'd think this could have been achieved, either on Muric-type money, or by sacrificing one of the sweet-shop attacking baubles (I jest slightly but only slighty).
- different luck with refereeing decisions in key moments. Every side has bad luck with decisions, and I don't subscribe to refereeing conspiracy theories, but in order to stay up we would have needed to have positively good luck in certain moments, more than we did. The Brentford and Leicester games spring to mind.
- an additional striker / better chance conversion rates. Clearly we were after another striker. In a different universe we would have landed one. Our conversion of chances, especially towards the end of the season was really poor.
- Either Phillips to rekindle his old form, or a different option. He can't have been cheap. Our central midfield was notable in being clearly inferior to our opponents in almost all games, and was sliced open far too easily (Leicester away, for example).
I think with the same injuries/refereeing luck, it would have been very difficult to stay up, but I do think it would be going too far to say /no/ other manager could have kept us up. I agree though that we would have been mad to get rid of Kieran at any stage, and I'm very very glad that he's still with us. The one silver lining of our slightly limp final showing might be that his stock is insufficiently high to attract clubs that he might consider going to.
Touch wood, massively, due to the likes of Brentford..... |  | | |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 13:46 - Jun 6 with 697 views | bsw72 |
With a full 2 x transfer windows available then possibly, but the gap was not just a handful of points, we were 6 wins short of moving above 17th . . . |  | | |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 13:57 - Jun 6 with 657 views | monty_radio |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 12:01 - Jun 6 by textbackup |
Joylessly ground out a few more points vs joylessly not grounding out more points.
Those games vs Leicester and Southampton ruined us. Had we beaten them a couple of times the mountain to climb wasn’t as big as it ultimately was.
Yet strangely the games vs them still had people saying they weren’t must wins games. |
"Joylessly ground out a few more points vs joylessly not grounding out more points."
Well, quite.
Maybe, a Mick figure could have ensured four 0-0 "prisoner points" in those 4 fixtures. Anyway, by mid-January the feeling that we weren't going along to P.R. with hopes aloft was pretty much how many seemed to feel. | |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 18:19 - Jun 6 with 352 views | OldFart71 |
I think you have to have a certain type of team to keep you up such as the Vinny Jones Wimbledon. Whether they would be as successful today is open to debate.
Ashton referred to the question of getting more players in that were Premier League and stated he didn't want to put the clubs future in jeopardy by taking players that would want big contracts over a number of years.
KM although nobody can say after two fabulous seasons that someone else would have done better. Maybe another manager would have played things differently.
Some judges claimed we were too open and tried to play the same type of football as when in the Championship. That would have meant different personnel in the team.
Obviously there was a problem in midfield. Phillips spent a lot of time injured. Morsy whilst you cannot question his commitment was maybe a player who was playing one rung above his capability. Loungo whilst again you cannot criticise his contribution to our promotion was used sparingly. Taylor hasn't been able to hold down a regular place and Cajuste who was are best player in midfield has now gone.
I wouldn't have wanted to see a McCarthy style manager at Town. We have had the T-shirt and rejected it. Stick with McKenna and we won't go far wrong. | | | |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 18:24 - Jun 6 with 336 views | MK1 |
Think we just went up to soon. A season or 2 in the Championship, to build our squad slower, would have been of benefit. I think if we go back up next season, we will stand a much better chance of staying.
So, in answer to your question, no, I don't think so.
KM's reluctance to play 3 in midfield did bother me though. |  |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 18:26 - Jun 6 with 332 views | FromReuserWithLove |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 11:23 - Jun 6 by Herbivore |
Even someone like Allardyce wouldn't have kept us up. We might have joylessly ground out a few more points but nowhere near enough to actually survive. The gap in quality and depth was just too big. |
I know we've been told it was an impossible ask to keep us up but what about Steve Cooper? |  | | |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 18:28 - Jun 6 with 322 views | MK1 |
| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 18:26 - Jun 6 by FromReuserWithLove |
I know we've been told it was an impossible ask to keep us up but what about Steve Cooper? |
Only if we had a stronger 3 in midfield. If we go back up, I want us playing 4-3-3. | |
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| Genuine Question: Could a different manager have kept us up? on 18:29 - Jun 6 with 316 views | TheBoyBlue |
No. In fact no manager could've kept that bottom three up, which is why it was so pointless Leicester and Southampton sacking their managers. | |
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