| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah 20:24 - Sep 10 with 20702 views | ElderGrizzly |
Was speaking at a University event and appears to have been shot (from distance) in the neck.
And actually shot, not the Donald Trump kind.
Horrific whatever your political views and has no place in politics
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 15:08 - Sep 11 with 1199 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 13:04 - Sep 11 by Libero |
It's a statement I stand by, violence *is* essential in removing any kind of fascist organisation from positions of power.
That doesn't mean that I think that Charlie Kirk's assassination will directly bring down the current cabal of quasi-fascism in power. |
So you were making a separate point not related to Charlie Kirk's murder? Even though you were replying directly to me saying Charlie Kirk's murder doesn't help. Ok. |  |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 15:12 - Sep 11 with 1182 views | TownieRob |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:46 - Sep 11 by rkc123 |
If someone like Charlie Kirk is seen as a standard bearer for free speech and democracy in our society then we are in trouble. The term fascist does get thrown around too freely, but his style of debate was confrontational to the extreme, he avoided anyone with any actual knowledge on the things they were speaking about and instead made his reputation baiting naïve college students, and even then all of his social media content was edited and framed in a way to show him as the 'winner' of every debate, and embarrass the other side. He wasn't looking to discuss issues, he was making content and spreading what at times was a hateful message.
All that said you are right that the idea of celebrating his death is sickening, it goes without saying no one on either side of politics should be killed for expressing their views. |
I get your point, but calling students “naïve” is a little off. They’re the future, of course they’re impressionable but don't you think that’s why engaging with them matters? Challenging ideas and their thinking is what debate is meant to be.
What I can’t get my head around is seeing people in the Amercian education system (you dont have to look too hard online), the very people guiding those same "naive" students, celebrating his death. If educators are gloating over political violence, what message does that send?
Completely agree with your final pargraph. |  | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 15:14 - Sep 11 with 1163 views | BlueandTruesince82 |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 14:53 - Sep 11 by Kropotkin123 |
"violence solves nothing" - History demonstrates otherwise, even if it isn't palatable.
How many people would say they would go back in time and kill a Hitler or a Stalin if given an opportunity?
What was WW2, if not ending of multiple fascist states through mass killing and violence?
If find it a bit odd that the sacrifice of ordinary people standing up and joining WW2 to end fascist states is so celebrated. But we one person who deliberately moves a state in that direction is killed people find it "gut-wrenching". It's all a bit too weird for me.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not cracking out the champagne. I have family in the US and seeing the politics and violence continue to move in this direction is concerning. But I can't muster any feeling for his loss. |
But the context is key here right? Ending a regime embarking on a mass land grab, engaging in worldwide warfare ruled by a dictator is very different to brining about change in an elected society.
Taking what worked then and applying that to now doest work and circumstances are rather different.
Charilie Kirk may have had some questionable to say the leat views but he want ever going to invade Poland. He might well have been a mouth piece for a Russain regime should it have done so, maybe.
Time have changed, warfare has changed, polyicd and humanity have changed since ww2.
Thats not even then considering then benefit of hindsight and if you want to really deep the possible butterfly effect of a bigger and possibly much more capable monster arising had Hitler been taken out at art school. |  |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:23 - Sep 11 with 968 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 15:14 - Sep 11 by BlueandTruesince82 |
But the context is key here right? Ending a regime embarking on a mass land grab, engaging in worldwide warfare ruled by a dictator is very different to brining about change in an elected society.
Taking what worked then and applying that to now doest work and circumstances are rather different.
Charilie Kirk may have had some questionable to say the leat views but he want ever going to invade Poland. He might well have been a mouth piece for a Russain regime should it have done so, maybe.
Time have changed, warfare has changed, polyicd and humanity have changed since ww2.
Thats not even then considering then benefit of hindsight and if you want to really deep the possible butterfly effect of a bigger and possibly much more capable monster arising had Hitler been taken out at art school. |
He was fully pushing the "stop the steal" agenda and chartered 300-400 people to the insurrection. He may not be invading other countries, but he is a part of the systematic attack on US democratic institutions.
No point in history is exactly the same. So I don't get the point you are making. Should no one reference history because two events aren't the same?
The point I quoted and responded to was "violence solves nothing" not was "violence against Kirk justified". My answer to that would be "no".
With that said, I can see why it happened. His actions don't exist in a silo. To expect attacks on democratic institutions to go unanswered in a gun-wielding, politically stoked nation of 350m people is naive. It's the environment he has helped create and he has personally sought to prevent gun reform that would have protected himself. |  |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:42 - Sep 11 with 899 views | Libero |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 15:08 - Sep 11 by The_Flashing_Smile |
So you were making a separate point not related to Charlie Kirk's murder? Even though you were replying directly to me saying Charlie Kirk's murder doesn't help. Ok. |
No, the two are related but not directly causational?
- Violence is essential to dismantling fascism.
- Charlie Kirk is a quasi-fascist who has been a victim of violence and lost his life.
- I do not believe the violence Charlie Kirk was a victim of will lead directly to the dismantling of the current administration.
Not sure I can break it down much simpler than that, apologies if it’s still not communicating in a concise and/or clear enough manner for you to digest the intention behind my words. [Post edited 11 Sep 17:42]
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:21 - Sep 11 with 787 views | _clive_baker_ |
Couple of grainy images of the suspect released by FBI.
They've described him as college age? Looks older to me, but not the best images admittedly. Can't help but feel he's no amateur with a rifle either, picking someone off from 130 metres. |  | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:22 - Sep 11 with 764 views | lowhouseblue |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 16:42 - Sep 11 by Libero |
No, the two are related but not directly causational?
- Violence is essential to dismantling fascism.
- Charlie Kirk is a quasi-fascist who has been a victim of violence and lost his life.
- I do not believe the violence Charlie Kirk was a victim of will lead directly to the dismantling of the current administration.
Not sure I can break it down much simpler than that, apologies if it’s still not communicating in a concise and/or clear enough manner for you to digest the intention behind my words. [Post edited 11 Sep 17:42]
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"Violence is essential is dismantling fascism" - that's lovely, but what has it got to do with the united states? you do know that the next presidential election is 3 years away - or is violence also 'essential' in a democracy if election results don't go your way? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:23 - Sep 11 with 777 views | DJR |
What's the record time on TWTD for a thread becoming a 10-pager? |  | | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:40 - Sep 11 with 699 views | unbelievablue |
Having empathy for people you really, really don't like or agree with is incredibly important, I think. Kirk stood for pretty much everything I stand against. Don't get it twisted, he was a far right hatemonger in the guise of a free speech debater, and there is an absolute plethora of evidence to this end. He was making a concerted effort to influence youth culture across the States in line with Trumpist politics, which I abhor.
But he obviously, OBVIOUSLY didn't deserve to die for those beliefs. This is a f-ed up democracy but a democracy, of sorts, it is - political violence has no place there. Whether it has a place anywhere is debatable, I think, but not really in this context. |  |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:44 - Sep 11 with 674 views | Libero |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:22 - Sep 11 by lowhouseblue |
"Violence is essential is dismantling fascism" - that's lovely, but what has it got to do with the united states? you do know that the next presidential election is 3 years away - or is violence also 'essential' in a democracy if election results don't go your way? |
Your point id that you don’t believe the current United States administration to be a quasi-fascist government? [Post edited 11 Sep 17:44]
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:47 - Sep 11 with 634 views | lowhouseblue |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:44 - Sep 11 by Libero |
Your point id that you don’t believe the current United States administration to be a quasi-fascist government? [Post edited 11 Sep 17:44]
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my point is that the united states is a democracy and the next presidential election is in 3 years. violence in a democracy is not justifiable just cos your side lost.
not sure i can break it down much simpler than that, apologies if it’s still not communicating in a concise and/or clear enough manner for you to digest the intention behind my words. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:56 - Sep 11 with 610 views | Lamp |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:40 - Sep 11 by unbelievablue |
Having empathy for people you really, really don't like or agree with is incredibly important, I think. Kirk stood for pretty much everything I stand against. Don't get it twisted, he was a far right hatemonger in the guise of a free speech debater, and there is an absolute plethora of evidence to this end. He was making a concerted effort to influence youth culture across the States in line with Trumpist politics, which I abhor.
But he obviously, OBVIOUSLY didn't deserve to die for those beliefs. This is a f-ed up democracy but a democracy, of sorts, it is - political violence has no place there. Whether it has a place anywhere is debatable, I think, but not really in this context. |
I would argue that within America political violence absolutely is common place. Presidents are killed or had attempts on their life far more regularly than other mature Western democracies.
The issue now is there aren’t any political grown ups in power and they’ll ramp up the rhetoric to suit their own needs. |  | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:58 - Sep 11 with 596 views | The_Romford_Blue |
Look it just simply doesn’t matter if you’re left wing or right wing. All that matters is they get the ball in the box, Hirst will finish it. |  |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:05 - Sep 11 with 548 views | iamatractorboy |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:47 - Sep 11 by lowhouseblue |
my point is that the united states is a democracy and the next presidential election is in 3 years. violence in a democracy is not justifiable just cos your side lost.
not sure i can break it down much simpler than that, apologies if it’s still not communicating in a concise and/or clear enough manner for you to digest the intention behind my words. |
If it's a proper democracy in anything other than name in 3 years, I'll be very surprised. Sure, they might have elections but they won't be free and fair. | | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:10 - Sep 11 with 523 views | Libero |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:47 - Sep 11 by lowhouseblue |
my point is that the united states is a democracy and the next presidential election is in 3 years. violence in a democracy is not justifiable just cos your side lost.
not sure i can break it down much simpler than that, apologies if it’s still not communicating in a concise and/or clear enough manner for you to digest the intention behind my words. |
Weird that you took my sincere words to Dollers and reappropriated them here in a snide way- I appreciate your clarification because the point you were attempting to make was obtuse.
Many feel there are legitimate threats to ‘democracy’ in the USA right now, there are countless examples you could find if you were so inclined.
If it’s merely ‘because your side lost’ I’d be totally with you, but it’s a little beyond that in my opinion…
Also, to add- we know nothing about the person(s) who carried out this assassination.
I appreciate many have automatically assumed it’s someone left leaning and it may well be, but at the moment we don’t actually know. [Post edited 11 Sep 18:11]
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:11 - Sep 11 with 519 views | TheBoyBlue |
From what I've heard of him I didn't agree with much if anything of his, but nobody deserves this. Tragically a young family has lost it's father.
The extremes on both sides have created a horrible atmosphere in politics worldwide, but add in the free availability of whatever guns any lunatic wishes to get in the US and you sadly get things like this happening. And even more sadly is that it won't ever change over there in this regard, whoever's in power. | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:13 - Sep 11 with 484 views | lowhouseblue |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:10 - Sep 11 by Libero |
Weird that you took my sincere words to Dollers and reappropriated them here in a snide way- I appreciate your clarification because the point you were attempting to make was obtuse.
Many feel there are legitimate threats to ‘democracy’ in the USA right now, there are countless examples you could find if you were so inclined.
If it’s merely ‘because your side lost’ I’d be totally with you, but it’s a little beyond that in my opinion…
Also, to add- we know nothing about the person(s) who carried out this assassination.
I appreciate many have automatically assumed it’s someone left leaning and it may well be, but at the moment we don’t actually know. [Post edited 11 Sep 18:11]
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the biggest "threat to ‘democracy’" is political violence. democracy being under threat is very different from democracy not existing. there are elections, and courts, and democratic process - your attempts in this thread to justify violence - against imagined fascism - have not place in the us or in any other democracy. [Post edited 11 Sep 18:15]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:18 - Sep 11 with 478 views | Libero |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:05 - Sep 11 by iamatractorboy |
If it's a proper democracy in anything other than name in 3 years, I'll be very surprised. Sure, they might have elections but they won't be free and fair. |
Voter suppression is already in motion if reports are to be believed. | | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:18 - Sep 11 with 469 views | Libero |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:13 - Sep 11 by lowhouseblue |
the biggest "threat to ‘democracy’" is political violence. democracy being under threat is very different from democracy not existing. there are elections, and courts, and democratic process - your attempts in this thread to justify violence - against imagined fascism - have not place in the us or in any other democracy. [Post edited 11 Sep 18:15]
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OK, mate, thanks for your input. | | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:24 - Sep 11 with 428 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:18 - Sep 11 by Libero |
Voter suppression is already in motion if reports are to be believed. |
Is it voter supression even needed when this - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp8z4nj17dno - is underway? | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:43 - Sep 11 with 340 views | unbelievablue |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:56 - Sep 11 by Lamp |
I would argue that within America political violence absolutely is common place. Presidents are killed or had attempts on their life far more regularly than other mature Western democracies.
The issue now is there aren’t any political grown ups in power and they’ll ramp up the rhetoric to suit their own needs. |
Yes, it is and always has been commonplace there - agreed. I simply don't agree with it as a tactic for change *today*. | |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:57 - Sep 11 with 279 views | Libero |
I wonder where this falls within ‘elections, courts and democratic process’ | | | |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 19:02 - Sep 11 with 243 views | lowhouseblue |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 18:57 - Sep 11 by Libero |
I wonder where this falls within ‘elections, courts and democratic process’ |
it points to a flaw in us institutions - they lack the equivalent of an independent electoral commission. the uk regularly redraws boundaries but it is uncontroversial because it is done independently. but the thing with the us is that if the republicans are doing it in their favour while they have the necessary majority now, it is almost certain the democrats have done the same in their favour in the past when they had the chance. the lack of political independence in the judiciary and in processes such as this is a problem in the us, but it is in no sense new or unique to trump.
edit - and it isn't fascism. [Post edited 11 Sep 19:03]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 19:15 - Sep 11 with 205 views | Swansea_Blue |
Ah gerrymandering. They learnt well from us. |  |
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| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 19:18 - Sep 11 with 182 views | textbackup |
| Far right politico Charlie Kirk just shot in the neck in Utah on 17:58 - Sep 11 by The_Romford_Blue |
Look it just simply doesn’t matter if you’re left wing or right wing. All that matters is they get the ball in the box, Hirst will finish it. |
He didn’t vs Derby! That was on a plate, 5 yards out |  |
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