| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' 08:35 - Jul 16 with 3937 views | jasondozzell |
He was narked after Norway and rightly.
I think he felt he had to go 5 at the back because we were so passive and weren't able to follow direction. No bite in midfield after the goal.
It's a psychological thing. English players are weak mentally compared to international counterparts.
Anyway glad we can get back to Town and proper football.
[Post edited 16 Jul 8:36]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:41 - Jul 16 with 701 views | SWLondonBlue93 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:26 - Jul 16 by Dubtractor |
Yep. Surprised there is even any debate.
Fine to go more compact, but you absolutely have to have a counter attacking option to keep the opposition honest. 6 defenders and no pace on the transition was only going to end one way. |
Exactly right, how on earth did Tuchel think we would be able to alleviate any pressure with that setup? It was obviously wrong at the time and we were rightly punished. Can only hope Spain put them back in their box on Sunday. |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:45 - Jul 16 with 681 views | RobTheMonk |
Poor decisions from Tuchel to go super defensive. Kane also should have come off. There was a point where Anderson obviously was asking where is everyone playing. Completely lost control of the midfield.
But a huge credit to Argentina. They stepped up massively and we didn't match it. Messi is ridiculous. |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:48 - Jul 16 with 675 views | Basuco |
The players were just not good enough, IMO, the PL is full of foreign players for a reason, Town now have to look wider than the UK for players to compete in the PL for the same reason, when Argentina upped the tempo we were just not able to compete. There are only two players in the England team that are world class, Kane and Bellingham, EFL teams have been steadily increasing the number of foreign players over the years.
England are producing very few top players and the FA need to look at why, the very few top players are coming through despite the system, not because of it.
English football needs a clear out of those running it from top to bottom before anything will change. Maybe the PL and EFL should have a rule that at least 5 players in the starting 11 should be UK players. |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:50 - Jul 16 with 660 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:28 - Jul 16 by Mullet |
They didn’t even manage in the same era with the same players. You’re looking to make your half baked opinion fit, as per usual.
You can ignore facts all you like, it’s your MO |
I’ve stopped responding to anything the OP writes.
“ Before you argue with someone, ask yourself if they are even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of your perspective." | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:13 - Jul 16 with 614 views | ernie |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:37 - Jul 16 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Its both.
Mental preparation and strength comes under the managers remit too. |
What to develop it in the two months every two years they get to work together ? It’s an inner trait at the most elite level. You either have it or you don’t. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:19 - Jul 16 with 609 views | Ryorry |
Sorry but those are bizarre comments considering our game v Mexico.
Did you see that, or if you saw it, have you already totally forgotten it? |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:20 - Jul 16 with 606 views | giant_stow |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:57 - Jul 16 by itfc48 |
There’s a video going around on Twitter where Cesc sums it up perfectly of how a player’s mentality can change when a manager makes subs like that.
It was dreadful, we weren’t an underdog ranked 50 places below taking a shock 1-0 lead. We are a side with some of the most expensive players in world football.
It wasn’t just we parked the bus, everyone was in the box meaning the Argentinians could select whatever shooting or crossing angle they wanted. You give players of that quality those options they will eventually pick out a cross or bang one in from distance. Even if not you’re relying on the second ball after a duel in the box falling your way. |
True, cross after cross came on with no one running out to stop them. Maybe the fellas were just shattered. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:23 - Jul 16 with 601 views | DJR |
I haven't read the entire thread but it seems to me the problem is that England doesn't have the players to play the sort of possession game that Spain played when they took the lead against France.
That isn't really Tuchel's fault. |  | | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:34 - Jul 16 with 558 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:23 - Jul 16 by DJR |
I haven't read the entire thread but it seems to me the problem is that England doesn't have the players to play the sort of possession game that Spain played when they took the lead against France.
That isn't really Tuchel's fault. |
Tuchel's job though is to find another way if that isn't possible, which is why he's paid the big bucks and why Gareth (wrongly imo) was widely derided.
He had a strong bench and for whatever reason decided to approach the last 40 mins like a vauxhall conference team hanging on at Old Trafford in the 3rd round of the Cup.
His absolute BS after the game too that he wanted us to go and score more goals, while bringing on four defenders, was the icing on the cake.
You'll struggle to find a reputable outlet (Athletic, Guardian, Totally Football etc) that isn't this morning firmly laying the blame at Tommy's door. [Post edited 16 Jul 10:35]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:46 - Jul 16 with 523 views | DJR |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:34 - Jul 16 by nrb1985 |
Tuchel's job though is to find another way if that isn't possible, which is why he's paid the big bucks and why Gareth (wrongly imo) was widely derided.
He had a strong bench and for whatever reason decided to approach the last 40 mins like a vauxhall conference team hanging on at Old Trafford in the 3rd round of the Cup.
His absolute BS after the game too that he wanted us to go and score more goals, while bringing on four defenders, was the icing on the cake.
You'll struggle to find a reputable outlet (Athletic, Guardian, Totally Football etc) that isn't this morning firmly laying the blame at Tommy's door. [Post edited 16 Jul 10:35]
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But is it really a strong bench in world class terms?
As it is, I don't really do blame when it comes to football.
Sometimes, shite just happens. [Post edited 16 Jul 10:47]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:55 - Jul 16 with 489 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:46 - Jul 16 by DJR |
But is it really a strong bench in world class terms?
As it is, I don't really do blame when it comes to football.
Sometimes, shite just happens. [Post edited 16 Jul 10:47]
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It was a bench more than capable of getting us over the line against a team that struggled to beat Egypt and Cape Verde. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:57 - Jul 16 with 489 views | DJR |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:55 - Jul 16 by nrb1985 |
It was a bench more than capable of getting us over the line against a team that struggled to beat Egypt and Cape Verde. |
We'll never know.  | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:58 - Jul 16 with 483 views | hype313 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:19 - Jul 16 by Ryorry |
Sorry but those are bizarre comments considering our game v Mexico.
Did you see that, or if you saw it, have you already totally forgotten it? |
Mexico don't possess the firepower that Argentina do.
Shut up shop against Mexico and it's not an issue, give those Argentina forwards free rein and it's suicide. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:00 - Jul 16 with 462 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:49 - Jul 16 by LankHenners |
That match was possibly the most obvious case of a manager completely screwing it up that there’s ever been. |
Indeed. If ever there was a game where the manager publicly said, "I do not believe in my players or in their ability to beat any top teams", it was that game.
Really awful from Tuchel, and history tells us that for England, going 1-0 up and then sitting back, never ever works. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:13 - Jul 16 with 416 views | andytown |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 08:49 - Jul 16 by LankHenners |
That match was possibly the most obvious case of a manager completely screwing it up that there’s ever been. |
Since Alf Ramsay took Bobby Charlton off at 2-0 in the WC quarter final in 1970…?
I sometimes wonder how different England’s tournament history might have unfolded if that one sub. hadn’t been made. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:15 - Jul 16 with 412 views | Ryorry |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:58 - Jul 16 by hype313 |
Mexico don't possess the firepower that Argentina do.
Shut up shop against Mexico and it's not an issue, give those Argentina forwards free rein and it's suicide. |
I was referring to our fight, passion, team spirit & mental strength in holding on with 10 men at high altitude which our players weren't conditioned to but the Mexicans were, in response to the OP's assertion that England players are somehow mentally weak (or words to that effect).
Nothing whatsoever to do with tactics. [Post edited 16 Jul 11:56]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:17 - Jul 16 with 402 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:13 - Jul 16 by andytown |
Since Alf Ramsay took Bobby Charlton off at 2-0 in the WC quarter final in 1970…?
I sometimes wonder how different England’s tournament history might have unfolded if that one sub. hadn’t been made. |
Well, last night was the same as that, but, if Sir Alf had taken Bobby Charlton off three times in the same match. | |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:29 - Jul 16 with 358 views | LankHenners |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 09:02 - Jul 16 by jasondozzell |
What's more likely? A succession of elite coaches in world football (Eriksson, Capello, Hodgson, Tuchel etc.) spectacularly screw up or there's something deeper wrong with the psyche of English players? We were scared again last night. The only player who wasn't was Spence.
And you'll forgive me if I ignore the political jibe from someone who thinks the Starmer government was a success. [Post edited 16 Jul 9:03]
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Trying to compare across different eras with different players being pointless aside, there have been quite a few 'elite coaches' at this World Cup who have gone out in relatively dismal circumstances (Tuchel, Nagelsmann, Ancelotti, Pochettino) so it's hardly a uniquely English thing.
It's the sort of opinion some dinosaur Daily Mail columnist would come out with. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:43 - Jul 16 with 327 views | NthQldITFC |
Had he and the entire coaching team lost their voices? Was there some kind of sonic barrier between the coaching area and the pitch?
In my opinion he (rightly) sent them out to impose a high intensity pressing game on Argentina, which worked really well, but then failed to have a Plan B for replacing the shagged out core of that pressing team on 60 minutes or so.
If that's down to lack of available replacements then the Plan C needed to be a narrow rather than flat formation, working as a block side to side to defend against whichever side Argentina had it but maintaining a central (vertical, yuck!) structure to play out through and retain possession.
Failing that, then Plan D wold have involved a player or two with functional legs (Rashford, Saka, Toney) to provide a counter attacking threat.
Plan E was sh!t beyond belief, and we're back on the PlanE home because of it. [Post edited 16 Jul 12:10]
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:48 - Jul 16 with 307 views | nrb1985 |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:46 - Jul 16 by DJR |
But is it really a strong bench in world class terms?
As it is, I don't really do blame when it comes to football.
Sometimes, shite just happens. [Post edited 16 Jul 10:47]
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It was a bench more than capable of getting us over the line against a team that struggled to beat Egypt and Cape Verde. | | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:02 - Jul 16 with 278 views | Radlett_blue |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:43 - Jul 16 by NthQldITFC |
Had he and the entire coaching team lost their voices? Was there some kind of sonic barrier between the coaching area and the pitch?
In my opinion he (rightly) sent them out to impose a high intensity pressing game on Argentina, which worked really well, but then failed to have a Plan B for replacing the shagged out core of that pressing team on 60 minutes or so.
If that's down to lack of available replacements then the Plan C needed to be a narrow rather than flat formation, working as a block side to side to defend against whichever side Argentina had it but maintaining a central (vertical, yuck!) structure to play out through and retain possession.
Failing that, then Plan D wold have involved a player or two with functional legs (Rashford, Saka, Toney) to provide a counter attacking threat.
Plan E was sh!t beyond belief, and we're back on the PlanE home because of it. [Post edited 16 Jul 12:10]
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Mick McCarthy would have cost 10% of Tuchel's salary & I'm sure he could have parked the bus just as ineffectively. |  |
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| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:08 - Jul 16 with 245 views | HighgateBlue |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 10:23 - Jul 16 by DJR |
I haven't read the entire thread but it seems to me the problem is that England doesn't have the players to play the sort of possession game that Spain played when they took the lead against France.
That isn't really Tuchel's fault. |
I think that's right.
Are we one of the best 2 sides in the world? I'm not sure we are. If that's the case, then despite our disappointment, it was a decent result overall.
It's like asking whether it was Kieran's 'fault' that we only finished 2nd in the Championship on the first occasion when we went up, rather than 1st. We didn't win the division. But we overachieved. It's difficult to ask more of a manager. I think England achieved at least 'par' for their ability, and they did achieve par for their ranking. And it's a knockout game. It's churlish to be cross with a manager for not winning the FA Cup just because you have the best squad and even win the league.
On another day, yes, we'd have gone through. Maybe even if Tuchel had made different decisions. But hindsight is a wonderful thing. It's a shame we didn't actually beat any top drawer team, but losing to the world champions including the world's best player is not something that needs an excuse or an apology.
We go again. (albeit another little bit of us dies...) |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:17 - Jul 16 with 219 views | BseaBlue |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:08 - Jul 16 by HighgateBlue |
I think that's right.
Are we one of the best 2 sides in the world? I'm not sure we are. If that's the case, then despite our disappointment, it was a decent result overall.
It's like asking whether it was Kieran's 'fault' that we only finished 2nd in the Championship on the first occasion when we went up, rather than 1st. We didn't win the division. But we overachieved. It's difficult to ask more of a manager. I think England achieved at least 'par' for their ability, and they did achieve par for their ranking. And it's a knockout game. It's churlish to be cross with a manager for not winning the FA Cup just because you have the best squad and even win the league.
On another day, yes, we'd have gone through. Maybe even if Tuchel had made different decisions. But hindsight is a wonderful thing. It's a shame we didn't actually beat any top drawer team, but losing to the world champions including the world's best player is not something that needs an excuse or an apology.
We go again. (albeit another little bit of us dies...) |
If we'd have got beat comfortably like France the evening before I would understand that argument but we were in complete control until the 55th minute when we scored.
It was the tactical changes and substitutions that cost us. We did have options on the bench to maintain control in midfield if we were tiring in Mainoo or potentially Eze if we wanted to drop Jude in with Anderson. We chose to end up with 6 defenders on the pitch though! That is the manager's responsibility.
Also, Kane is the best 9 in the world, Bellingham world class, Rice just won the premier league, Guehi snapped up by double winning side Man City, Anderson rated at £130+million, Gordon who has been snapped up by Barca for big bucks and that is without the likes of Eze, Saka, Rashford, Mainoo on the bench and then Plamer/Foden/Trent that couldn't even get in the squad.
In years gone by, not having the quality has been a fair argument but not this time round in my opinion. |  | | |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 12:39 - Jul 16 with 177 views | Plums |
| It's not Tuchel's fault imo - it's the players' on 11:43 - Jul 16 by NthQldITFC |
Had he and the entire coaching team lost their voices? Was there some kind of sonic barrier between the coaching area and the pitch?
In my opinion he (rightly) sent them out to impose a high intensity pressing game on Argentina, which worked really well, but then failed to have a Plan B for replacing the shagged out core of that pressing team on 60 minutes or so.
If that's down to lack of available replacements then the Plan C needed to be a narrow rather than flat formation, working as a block side to side to defend against whichever side Argentina had it but maintaining a central (vertical, yuck!) structure to play out through and retain possession.
Failing that, then Plan D wold have involved a player or two with functional legs (Rashford, Saka, Toney) to provide a counter attacking threat.
Plan E was sh!t beyond belief, and we're back on the PlanE home because of it. [Post edited 16 Jul 12:10]
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I don't think they lost their voices - as much as their heads.
Ending the World Cup with Dan Burn up front and Pickford trying to find him was a pitiful way of exiting. If it was a script for Mike Bassett, we'd be howling at it.
It's been an enjoyable tournament but ultimately the substitutions have cost us. Not only in the semi-final but also in the Norway game where a less cautious substitution that compromised Bellingham at half time probably meant we didn't need to go to extra time - where the energy we needed last night was expended. |  |
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