| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio 13:30 - Jan 9 with 28611 views | Lord_Lucan |
I despair
I thought it was the best man wins
Is it just me who thinks positive discrimination is racist to both black and white
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:37 - Jan 9 with 8913 views | J2BLUE |
Is this where they will get a guaranteed interview? If so, it's still the best person for the job that wins. I'm applying for jobs at the moment. Suffolk Council (I think it's them) give a guaranteed interview to disabled candidates. I think it's quite common. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:39 - Jan 9 with 8913 views | yorkshire |
I think you are missing the point - the object is to add people into the interview process - not just give them the job - this means open the interview panel up to different thoughts and visions that they may not have been exposed to
I can't see how this is a bad thing and it is only the way that some right leading media outlets are reporting it that is creating this uproar |  | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:39 - Jan 9 with 8899 views | factual_blue |
If positive discrimination meant appointing people solely on the colour of their skin, it's wrong. If positive discrimination means ensuring candidates from any background are given the opportunity to be interviewed, then no. Always appoint the best person. I've seen unconscious - and fairly blatant - discrimination at play in pre-interview selection in the past. Wipe that out (eg withhold names from sifting panels). Then ask every candidate exactly the same questions, ideally competence-based. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:40 - Jan 9 with 8908 views | Darth_Koont |
No, the Rooney Rule is a great way to combat institutional racism and/or subconscious profiling.
If you want the best man or woman for the job it's unlikely if you already have a pre-conceived idea of what type of person that is before the interview process even starts. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:42 - Jan 9 with 8871 views | LankHenners |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:37 - Jan 9 by J2BLUE |
Is this where they will get a guaranteed interview? If so, it's still the best person for the job that wins. I'm applying for jobs at the moment. Suffolk Council (I think it's them) give a guaranteed interview to disabled candidates. I think it's quite common. |
BBC article on it here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42623021
Yeah, one BAME candidate will be interviewed in any future roles in the England set-up. Clearly, they'll still have to meet the relevant criteria for the role. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:45 - Jan 9 with 8851 views | J2BLUE |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:42 - Jan 9 by LankHenners |
BBC article on it here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42623021
Yeah, one BAME candidate will be interviewed in any future roles in the England set-up. Clearly, they'll still have to meet the relevant criteria for the role. |
I read the title and thought he meant New England Revolution...no wonder I couldn't find the story 
Cheers. I like this policy. Perhaps now Paul Ince will realise he doesn't get jobs because he's a crap manager and no other reason. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:49 - Jan 9 with 8832 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:39 - Jan 9 by factual_blue |
If positive discrimination meant appointing people solely on the colour of their skin, it's wrong. If positive discrimination means ensuring candidates from any background are given the opportunity to be interviewed, then no. Always appoint the best person. I've seen unconscious - and fairly blatant - discrimination at play in pre-interview selection in the past. Wipe that out (eg withhold names from sifting panels). Then ask every candidate exactly the same questions, ideally competence-based. |
It's obviously for the interview process - and one would think that the best man wins, and I have no doubt that would be the case.
I just personally feel that positive discrimination is not a way to prevent racism. If a person, panel or organisation is racist then the candidate won't get the job anyway.
I feel the same way for organisations such as the black lawyers association and the gay ITFC supporters club. For me it is a backward step and continues to separate.
If there was a white xxxxxxxxx association or straight ITFC supporters club I would want nothing to do with them. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:51 - Jan 9 with 8814 views | King_of_Portman_Rd |
It's a classic example of needing far better communication in what it actually means.. I think people can easily misinterpret these sorts of rules and procedures.
In reality an organisation would shortlist maybe 6 candidates.. Then if there were any disabled candidates they would add them as extra candidates, totaling 7, so not at the detriment of the initial 6.. therefore no one really loses out (except the added time in the interview process) |  | | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:51 - Jan 9 with 8815 views | JakeITFC |
Been a while since we've had this on here.
Can't possibly see how this is a bad thing. |  | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:51 - Jan 9 with 8808 views | J2BLUE |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:49 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
It's obviously for the interview process - and one would think that the best man wins, and I have no doubt that would be the case.
I just personally feel that positive discrimination is not a way to prevent racism. If a person, panel or organisation is racist then the candidate won't get the job anyway.
I feel the same way for organisations such as the black lawyers association and the gay ITFC supporters club. For me it is a backward step and continues to separate.
If there was a white xxxxxxxxx association or straight ITFC supporters club I would want nothing to do with them. |
People aren't usually discriminated against for being white or straight though.
The gay ITFC supporters club was, I assume, set up by a gay person. That in itself shows there is demand for such a group. I get what you're saying. In an ideal world no one would care and everyone would be equal. Perhaps some people just need a bit of moral support though? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:52 - Jan 9 with 8803 views | yesjohn99 |
Agree. Surely any success in a job application should be based on your ability and not the colour of your skin?
Suppose this gives hope to John Barnes’s fantastic managerial career. | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:57 - Jan 9 with 8770 views | DanTheMan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:52 - Jan 9 by yesjohn99 |
Agree. Surely any success in a job application should be based on your ability and not the colour of your skin?
Suppose this gives hope to John Barnes’s fantastic managerial career. |
You would think that, but studies have shown that with identical CVs, people with say Middle Eastern sounding names will not get as many interviews are those with English name for example.
Some basic info here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38751307 |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:05 - Jan 9 with 8719 views | unbelievablue |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:52 - Jan 9 by yesjohn99 |
Agree. Surely any success in a job application should be based on your ability and not the colour of your skin?
Suppose this gives hope to John Barnes’s fantastic managerial career. |
Yes, it should. Curently it isn't. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:06 - Jan 9 with 8713 views | chicoazul |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:49 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
It's obviously for the interview process - and one would think that the best man wins, and I have no doubt that would be the case.
I just personally feel that positive discrimination is not a way to prevent racism. If a person, panel or organisation is racist then the candidate won't get the job anyway.
I feel the same way for organisations such as the black lawyers association and the gay ITFC supporters club. For me it is a backward step and continues to separate.
If there was a white xxxxxxxxx association or straight ITFC supporters club I would want nothing to do with them. |
No offence intended as you are a good bloke, but this is the kind of thinking one would expect a successful white middle class man to have. Black people, gay people (to use your examples) almost always have a very different experience of professional life from you. |  |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:06 - Jan 9 with 8722 views | unbelievablue |
In the NFL, teams can avoid interviewing Black and Ethnic Minority candidates and pay a $200k fine instead. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:06 - Jan 9 with 8724 views | yorkshire |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:52 - Jan 9 by yesjohn99 |
Agree. Surely any success in a job application should be based on your ability and not the colour of your skin?
Suppose this gives hope to John Barnes’s fantastic managerial career. |
Another one who has missed the point - the rule is that people get an interview - not that they get the job
Now, who knows - maybe they will have something innovative or creative that the interview panel haven't seen or heard of before | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:07 - Jan 9 with 8709 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 13:49 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
It's obviously for the interview process - and one would think that the best man wins, and I have no doubt that would be the case.
I just personally feel that positive discrimination is not a way to prevent racism. If a person, panel or organisation is racist then the candidate won't get the job anyway.
I feel the same way for organisations such as the black lawyers association and the gay ITFC supporters club. For me it is a backward step and continues to separate.
If there was a white xxxxxxxxx association or straight ITFC supporters club I would want nothing to do with them. |
It's not actually about trying to legislate against racist interviewers. It's much more about the subconscious and preconceived narrowing of the candidate list.
Basically if there's an agreed list of criteria for the job our brains trick us into seeing a particular type of candidate that represents those qualities almost as a stereotype. Even though other candidates who look different may have exactly the same qualities and an even better fit for the job.
For example, if you were putting together a list of potential ITFC managers who needed the following:
- Energy
- Vision
- Innovative tactics
- Fresh coaching ideas and techniques
You'll likely have an image of someone in your head already (probably aged 35-45) and subconsciously you'll use the interview process to match that. Even though there's no reason why a 55-year-old couldn't be the best candidate on these criteria but without thinking about it you'll be leaning towards candidates that look.the part. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:08 - Jan 9 with 8692 views | chicoazul |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:07 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
It's not actually about trying to legislate against racist interviewers. It's much more about the subconscious and preconceived narrowing of the candidate list.
Basically if there's an agreed list of criteria for the job our brains trick us into seeing a particular type of candidate that represents those qualities almost as a stereotype. Even though other candidates who look different may have exactly the same qualities and an even better fit for the job.
For example, if you were putting together a list of potential ITFC managers who needed the following:
- Energy
- Vision
- Innovative tactics
- Fresh coaching ideas and techniques
You'll likely have an image of someone in your head already (probably aged 35-45) and subconsciously you'll use the interview process to match that. Even though there's no reason why a 55-year-old couldn't be the best candidate on these criteria but without thinking about it you'll be leaning towards candidates that look.the part. |
Very well put. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:11 - Jan 9 with 8688 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:06 - Jan 9 by yorkshire |
Another one who has missed the point - the rule is that people get an interview - not that they get the job
Now, who knows - maybe they will have something innovative or creative that the interview panel haven't seen or heard of before |
If it were the case for an interview after a postal application then I can see the point in assuring minorities are included in the final stages - I can accept that.
But the England managers job is a bit different.
At least Terry Connor is in with a shout I suppose. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:15 - Jan 9 with 8665 views | yorkshire |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:11 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
If it were the case for an interview after a postal application then I can see the point in assuring minorities are included in the final stages - I can accept that.
But the England managers job is a bit different.
At least Terry Connor is in with a shout I suppose. |
See the trouble with posts like this is that now, if a minority candidate does get the job then there will be people that claim it is due to positive discrimination
There is no job that is a 'bit different' and if Terry Connor was given the England Managers job then it would be because he had the best interview | | | |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:16 - Jan 9 with 8655 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:07 - Jan 9 by Darth_Koont |
It's not actually about trying to legislate against racist interviewers. It's much more about the subconscious and preconceived narrowing of the candidate list.
Basically if there's an agreed list of criteria for the job our brains trick us into seeing a particular type of candidate that represents those qualities almost as a stereotype. Even though other candidates who look different may have exactly the same qualities and an even better fit for the job.
For example, if you were putting together a list of potential ITFC managers who needed the following:
- Energy
- Vision
- Innovative tactics
- Fresh coaching ideas and techniques
You'll likely have an image of someone in your head already (probably aged 35-45) and subconsciously you'll use the interview process to match that. Even though there's no reason why a 55-year-old couldn't be the best candidate on these criteria but without thinking about it you'll be leaning towards candidates that look.the part. |
I fully appreciate what you say and I agree with it in most circumstances. I've sort of just briefly touched on this in an earlier post.
Actually I'm knowingly racist when appointing jobs. I always look for an Asian when seeking in house bookkeepers - although the last bastard ripped me off. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:21 - Jan 9 with 8631 views | Darth_Koont |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:16 - Jan 9 by Lord_Lucan |
I fully appreciate what you say and I agree with it in most circumstances. I've sort of just briefly touched on this in an earlier post.
Actually I'm knowingly racist when appointing jobs. I always look for an Asian when seeking in house bookkeepers - although the last bastard ripped me off. |
Then you should be bringing in other candidates. Sounds utterly stupid.
Do you end up appointing the candidate who is "most Asian"? If not, why not? | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:24 - Jan 9 with 8609 views | Lord_Lucan |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:15 - Jan 9 by yorkshire |
See the trouble with posts like this is that now, if a minority candidate does get the job then there will be people that claim it is due to positive discrimination
There is no job that is a 'bit different' and if Terry Connor was given the England Managers job then it would be because he had the best interview |
The point is, that will always be said about a successful black candidate whilst there is positive discrimination. If there wasn't positive discrimination then you couldn't argue that.
Having read some posts I can take other opinions - and I can change my mind, I often do. Some powerful arguments have been put across.But it is a minefield and it depresses me a bit that it is deemed necessary.
I'm gonna pull you up on Terry Connor though. If he gets it then positive discrimination is counter productive. | |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:25 - Jan 9 with 8591 views | artsbossbeard |
| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 14:06 - Jan 9 by chicoazul |
No offence intended as you are a good bloke, but this is the kind of thinking one would expect a successful white middle class man to have. Black people, gay people (to use your examples) almost always have a very different experience of professional life from you. |
I can confirm middle class as an intention. |  |
| Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing. | | Poll: | Raining in IP8 - shall I get the washing in? |
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| New England manager candidates in future to be subject to positive discriminatio on 15:31 - Jan 9 with 8414 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
Its only really positive discriminatuon if the BAME candidate were to get the job and didnt have the credentials to support that decision.
I dont really have a problem with it.
Genuine question though... if the England job came available now, which BAME candidate might be considered? |  |
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