| The Times with another explosive scoop.... 19:25 - Apr 18 with 20254 views | itfcjoe |
Won’t be long until these Tories are truly held to account.
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 15:33 - Apr 20 with 1217 views | Herbivore |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:02 - Apr 20 by Clapham_Junction |
I'm sure most of us want the government to follow their expert advice they've been given. But as pointed out by a few people in a thread a couple of weeks ago, that's not necessarily what governments do.
Experts give advice, politicians say 'we don't want to do that'. A compromise is reached and both sides have to back that decision in public. |
Quite. There seems to be a real (deliberate or otherwise) lack of understanding of the relationship between advisers and the government. The advice is not neutral. We don't know specifically what they are being asked to advise on and any parameters given, what options are or are not on the table, and how closely policy decisions actually mirror the 'raw' scientific evidence. It's either naive or disingenuous to accept and perpetuate the simplistic "we're following the science" narrative. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 15:59 - Apr 20 with 1190 views | sparks |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 15:05 - Apr 20 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. Sparks is a terrorist sympathiser sympathiser although I have some sympathy with that. |
Nawaz has absolutely renounced his former views, and founded the quilliam foundation.
Some of his work and thoughts on the issue are extremely well considered and incisive.
Very unfortunate he did not get elected. That is clearly not sympathising with a terrorist sympathiser. It is much closer to (for instance) supporting an ex sinn fein terrorist sympathiser who is now committed to a peaceful political process. Albeit the likes of Adams and McGuinness never actually renounced and changed their views as Nawaz has... |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 16:36 - Apr 20 with 1150 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 15:59 - Apr 20 by sparks |
Nawaz has absolutely renounced his former views, and founded the quilliam foundation.
Some of his work and thoughts on the issue are extremely well considered and incisive.
Very unfortunate he did not get elected. That is clearly not sympathising with a terrorist sympathiser. It is much closer to (for instance) supporting an ex sinn fein terrorist sympathiser who is now committed to a peaceful political process. Albeit the likes of Adams and McGuinness never actually renounced and changed their views as Nawaz has... |
There’s a really interesting documentary on Bobby Sands on Netflix I think it would be of benefit you watch.
“Terrorist sympathiser” is probably one of the most lazy and factually blurred smears the right have come up with in recent years to remove the nucience of why conflict happens and how these problems both come to be and fail to resolve.
There’s definitely a pattern there, similar to accusing anyone who sympathises with Palastine an AS. Although I’ve never seen someone on here say it I’ve seen it happen elsewhere online.
The former example with the IRA however, I’ve seen people have a field day with that here. [Post edited 20 Apr 2020 16:41]
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 16:41 - Apr 20 with 1141 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:51 - Apr 19 by sparks |
How do you know this?
What is starkly apparent is that people cannot step back and assess, rationally, the information available (and importantly- the information not available) because they are so wed to their political and ideological positions.
Someone points out a gap in the information, making your assertion speculative? Just shout "TORY!" or "LEFTY!"" depending on your perspective. Its pathetic. |
You missed out "CENTRIST!" |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 16:46 - Apr 20 with 1124 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 16:41 - Apr 20 by Ewan_Oozami |
You missed out "CENTRIST!" |
To be fair centralists are the real issue. At least with the right wing you know what you’re dealing with. Centralists are the ones who sit on the fence and then wonder how the entire world has gone insane as if sitting back and allowing populist fascists run riot was nothing to do with them. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 17:07 - Apr 20 with 1092 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 15:59 - Apr 20 by sparks |
Nawaz has absolutely renounced his former views, and founded the quilliam foundation.
Some of his work and thoughts on the issue are extremely well considered and incisive.
Very unfortunate he did not get elected. That is clearly not sympathising with a terrorist sympathiser. It is much closer to (for instance) supporting an ex sinn fein terrorist sympathiser who is now committed to a peaceful political process. Albeit the likes of Adams and McGuinness never actually renounced and changed their views as Nawaz has... |
I know I was just mildly joshing.
Because I'm pretty certain that, despite never having advocated violence, Maajid would be portrayed as a "terrorist sympathiser" based on his past if he was attacking the Establishment rather than weirdly propping it up all the time. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 17:14 - Apr 20 with 1077 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 17:07 - Apr 20 by Darth_Koont |
I know I was just mildly joshing.
Because I'm pretty certain that, despite never having advocated violence, Maajid would be portrayed as a "terrorist sympathiser" based on his past if he was attacking the Establishment rather than weirdly propping it up all the time. |
I make you right. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 18:17 - Apr 20 with 1058 views | DanTheMan |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 14:55 - Apr 20 by Swansea_Blue |
A response to the Government response, from the editor of the Lancet.
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That's some impressive cherry picking from the Government. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 18:54 - Apr 20 with 1021 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 18:17 - Apr 20 by DanTheMan |
That's some impressive cherry picking from the Government. |
For someone who screamed I was being quiet, the lefty jizz fest was ignoring him and he had everyone bang to rights Glassers had gone very quiet again 😂 | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:11 - Apr 20 with 1000 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 18:54 - Apr 20 by monytowbray |
For someone who screamed I was being quiet, the lefty jizz fest was ignoring him and he had everyone bang to rights Glassers had gone very quiet again 😂 |
Don't worry. He'll be racing around assembling an ad hominem, guilt by accusation twitter bomb as we speak.
What's it called in the legal world when you dump a load of information on people they have to pick through to find how it addresses the case in question? Death by Discovery, I think.
Anyway, it's a tactic to try and avoid dealing with the relevant and damning evidence. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:35 - Apr 20 with 979 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 18:54 - Apr 20 by monytowbray |
For someone who screamed I was being quiet, the lefty jizz fest was ignoring him and he had everyone bang to rights Glassers had gone very quiet again 😂 |
Thanks for the mention.
I know you are in your own cocoon plugged into the internet 24/7 but since I posted this morning I’ve done a ten mile run, sanded down my banister back to the original wood, sent back my preferences for what volunteering I will do during the Covid crisis, checked in with my accountant re my furloughed staff and am now cooking up the bar-b-q for the wife and kids.
Enjoy your evening in TWTD. I may check in before bed. [Post edited 20 Apr 2020 19:37]
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:37 - Apr 20 with 974 views | DanTheMan |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:35 - Apr 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Thanks for the mention.
I know you are in your own cocoon plugged into the internet 24/7 but since I posted this morning I’ve done a ten mile run, sanded down my banister back to the original wood, sent back my preferences for what volunteering I will do during the Covid crisis, checked in with my accountant re my furloughed staff and am now cooking up the bar-b-q for the wife and kids.
Enjoy your evening in TWTD. I may check in before bed. [Post edited 20 Apr 2020 19:37]
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Bit late (and cold) for a BBQ isn't it!? | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:38 - Apr 20 with 969 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:37 - Apr 20 by DanTheMan |
Bit late (and cold) for a BBQ isn't it!? |
It’s beautiful up here. And we seem to be eating later since the lockdown. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:42 - Apr 20 with 959 views | DanTheMan |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:38 - Apr 20 by GlasgowBlue |
It’s beautiful up here. And we seem to be eating later since the lockdown. |
Lucky for some, just a bit cold but clear here.
What's on the BBQ tonight? | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:42 - Apr 20 with 959 views | footers |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 18:54 - Apr 20 by monytowbray |
For someone who screamed I was being quiet, the lefty jizz fest was ignoring him and he had everyone bang to rights Glassers had gone very quiet again 😂 |
You should have posted when he was queuing for the cinema instead. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:56 - Apr 20 with 935 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:42 - Apr 20 by DanTheMan |
Lucky for some, just a bit cold but clear here.
What's on the BBQ tonight? |
Nothing spectacular. Burgers, minute steak, sausages and chicken wings.
And I’m getting told of for being in my iPad.
And for Callis, just so you don’t get lonely I’m playing pool with the kids and then I’ll be jumping in the hot tub afterwards.
Take care without me 💋💋💋💋💋💋 | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 20:10 - Apr 20 with 906 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:35 - Apr 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Thanks for the mention.
I know you are in your own cocoon plugged into the internet 24/7 but since I posted this morning I’ve done a ten mile run, sanded down my banister back to the original wood, sent back my preferences for what volunteering I will do during the Covid crisis, checked in with my accountant re my furloughed staff and am now cooking up the bar-b-q for the wife and kids.
Enjoy your evening in TWTD. I may check in before bed. [Post edited 20 Apr 2020 19:37]
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I do exactly the same and well aware you do too. It just amused me you felt the need to do the same to me earlier. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 21:08 - Apr 20 with 870 views | tractordownsouth |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 19:37 - Apr 19 by GlasgowBlue |
So the PM is being criticised for "skipping" 5 COBRA meetings, despite it being the norm for Secretary of States to chair them
and during this period the PM met with both the CMO and CSA twice a week to be briefed on their latest scientific and medical advice.
Majjid sums it up perfectly here
He takes the Times story apart here..
"Read the article dispassionately. It makes it clear that the scientists who were advising a different course were dissenting voices. Theirs was not the formal advice presented by the science committees (SAGE & NERVTAG). Government followed the official committee advice throughout"
"Read the minutes of meetings the article refers to. It’s not really up for debate. The article confuses (or deliberately mixes up) the dissenting scientists’ advice from the formal, official science committees’ advice. The article is just full of blunders"
"Instead, this appears (transparently so) as more of the same: a Murdoch vs Barclay Brothers media war over whether to back Johnson or Gove going forward (typical media oligarch squabbling over who should be leader, in the middle of the worst global emergency of our lifetimes)."
So a question for those criticising the government's handling of this crisis. Do you want Ministers to follow the advice of their experts at a time of national crisis, or do you not?
And it wasn't just the ministers of the UK government, or as Callis likes to call them, the Tories. The devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland too. They’re responsible for health policy in their countries. Thye have been in the loop from day one and they followed and continue to follow the same strategy. Not one of Labour or SNP devolved governments has gone rogue on this. If you watched the press conferences up here Sturgeon is getting the same stick from journos that the UK spokespeople are getting. It would be easier for Nicola just to blame Boris.
And another question. If Johnson announced the country was being placed under the most draconian lock-down in peacetime against the advice of his senior science and medical advisers, who would have been the first person on here crying that we are "sleepwalking into fascism" and that the "Brexiteers don't listen to experts"?
The lockdown was always coming. They made this clear at the very first press conference. They said the lockdown had to be perfectly timed. Not too early so that the country didn't get fatique (anyone crying out for an exit strategy after just three weeks) but times to keep the curve below NHS capacity while expanding it. Which is exactly what has happened.
This isn't to say that those criticising the government's strategy are wrong or right. We may not know who was truly correct for decades, or ever. But the government had to follow the advice given. [Post edited 19 Apr 2020 19:42]
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Maajid does not "sum it up perfectly" - the original bad WHO advice was corrected and they declared a global health emergency on 31st January. Johnson missed the meetings (and calls for ordering PPE) in February and March, so it's a poor lack of research from him. Besides, an emergency is the ideal time for a PM to step up to the plate. He's failed, plain and simple.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51318246 [Post edited 20 Apr 2020 21:13]
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 07:25 - Apr 21 with 792 views | dissboy2 |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 08:11 - Apr 20 by sparks |
Amused at the ridiculous downvotes on this one- to a post which is essentially factual.
I dont listen to LBC, but I do sometimes watch some of the clips. O Brien is good. Majid is excellent- and prepared to address difficult stuff in a measured rational way. It was a great shame he did not succeed in getting elected as a libdem MP a few years ago. |
the first paragraph was all wrong for a start |  | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 07:35 - Apr 21 with 785 views | dissboy2 |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:34 - Apr 20 by Herbivore |
Last year when the whole Jeremy Kyle thing kicked off after that person committed suicide, I tweeted about professional experience I'd had with two families where there'd been domestic violence incidents following them appearing on Jeremy Kyle. They contacted me and asked me if I'd go on Iain Dale's show to talk about it, but I wasn't really comfortable to do so and I was also two pints deep at a pub quiz, so I declined. |
good decision! | | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 09:52 - Apr 21 with 748 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:38 - Apr 20 by Pinewoodblue |
Presumably one of the reasons for requiring an export license is to protect home supply. |
So it appears that this has come into force from the Chinese government in the last two weeks. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:09 - Apr 21 with 711 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 15:33 - Apr 20 by Herbivore |
Quite. There seems to be a real (deliberate or otherwise) lack of understanding of the relationship between advisers and the government. The advice is not neutral. We don't know specifically what they are being asked to advise on and any parameters given, what options are or are not on the table, and how closely policy decisions actually mirror the 'raw' scientific evidence. It's either naive or disingenuous to accept and perpetuate the simplistic "we're following the science" narrative. |
We don’t need to know, anymore than we would need to know why an ITFC manager picks his team. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:10 - Apr 21 with 709 views | Herbivore |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:09 - Apr 21 by Pinewoodblue |
We don’t need to know, anymore than we would need to know why an ITFC manager picks his team. |
Great contribution. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:18 - Apr 21 with 700 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:09 - Apr 21 by Pinewoodblue |
We don’t need to know, anymore than we would need to know why an ITFC manager picks his team. |
As a consultant who uses data as a big part of his job (alas in a different industry) I can vouch Herbz has a valid point.
There’s being consulted to give the best strategy for the task at hand, and then there’s having to deliver a b@stardised version with limitations set by whomever is paying you.
It happens more than you think. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had to say “I really don’t recommend that, but I also can’t stop you, so I’m making it clear now in written form I take no responsibility for what may happen off the back of it” during my 8 year career.
And in that case the client would be 100% correct in the statement; “we are listening to the expert(s) and being informed by the data”, but that doesn’t mean they are acting upon the expert advice and following the data.
It’s also nothing like football in this case. We’re not protecting a secret sauce recipe here have a head up on the competition. Really there should be detailed and live (as reasonably possible) information and explanations available as to what we’re doing and why to assist global efforts. A hypothesis is not much use without the evidence determining it. That’s what science is to a lot of extent - scrutiny and proof. It’s certainly not just saying the word “science” over and over in the hope people just assume you know what you’re on about. I’d rightly get grilled with my work if my answer for everything was “we’re following SEO best practice” but had no idea what SEO best practice actually is. [Post edited 21 Apr 2020 11:24]
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:19 - Apr 21 with 695 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:10 - Apr 21 by Herbivore |
Great contribution. |
Far better than the contribution I was responding to. | |
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