| The Times with another explosive scoop.... 19:25 - Apr 18 with 20320 views | itfcjoe |
Won’t be long until these Tories are truly held to account.
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:34 - Apr 20 with 1181 views | Herbivore |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 08:08 - Apr 20 by dissboy2 |
what about if you dont mind me asking? |
Last year when the whole Jeremy Kyle thing kicked off after that person committed suicide, I tweeted about professional experience I'd had with two families where there'd been domestic violence incidents following them appearing on Jeremy Kyle. They contacted me and asked me if I'd go on Iain Dale's show to talk about it, but I wasn't really comfortable to do so and I was also two pints deep at a pub quiz, so I declined. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:42 - Apr 20 with 1157 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:12 - Apr 20 by Lord_Lucan |
I agree with your last point in particular.
I think the whole of The West assumed it would stay in The Far East, I think we all did to be honest.
Early February I was in Birmingham with an Italian and a Chinese supplier, they had both flown in together from Nuremberg where they had both been attending a trade show and they came to visit me at our show in Brum. I just looked back, this was 10th February.
Even then we were not thinking about a European problem, Li, the Chinese guy couldn't get back to China as flights were blocked China end and he had to go back to Italy with our Italian friend. Over dinner we were taking the p1ss over his situation.
The fact that unlike SARS etc it has decided to trouble us in The West it is also a fact that The Far East can handle this sort of thing like second nature. |
Indeed. I was watching the Wuhan stuff but thought this was similar. Then again, it's not my job or area of expertise.
I certainly wasn't expecting the government to declare a lockdown in February and it was only what was happening in Italy that really focused attention. So I'm definitely not one for thinking that the timing of the lockdown was as much a problem but the preparedness for the potential situation seems weak and subsequent response to the lack of preparedness slow re: the general availability of PPE and testing. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:48 - Apr 20 with 1150 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 09:35 - Apr 20 by Darth_Koont |
Nawaz is, as someone aptly said on Twitter, "a gob on a stick".
He also hops from 14th of January when there was still doubt over human-to-human transmission to the 2nd of March. But the WHO updated that there was evidence of human-to-human transmission within a week of that Jan 14th statement. So we have 5 weeks when the risk was (or at least should have been) known and would only strengthen as the cases started emerging outside of China.
It takes foresight but if a pandemic is one of our greatest national threats then seems a little bizarre that the early signs of a possible pandemic (and our capacity to deal with it) weren't taken more seriously earlier. It's not as if the Wuhan outbreak is repeated on a monthly or even yearly basis. In fact, this is only the 4th novel coronavirus to emerge this century. I'm guessing this time the risk assessment compared it rather too closely to SARS and MERS and thought it would only really affect Asia and the Middle East again. |
I rarely come across Nawaz so don't know much about him, but he does seem very confident in his opinions (presumably that's his job though if he's a shock jock).
As for SARS/MERS, was there criticism of us 'wasting money' preparing for at least one of those? You could be right in that there was an assumption that this would play the same way; maybe a bit of cry wolf over our (in the end) unnecessary responses to those? Who knows.
What's sure is that people were raising concerns over the government's response throughout this whole process. They've been criticised by the WHO, former scientific advisor, various leading academics, etc. And going back some time too. It's not just a hindsight issue as is being made out. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:09 - Apr 20 with 1126 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:42 - Apr 20 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed. I was watching the Wuhan stuff but thought this was similar. Then again, it's not my job or area of expertise.
I certainly wasn't expecting the government to declare a lockdown in February and it was only what was happening in Italy that really focused attention. So I'm definitely not one for thinking that the timing of the lockdown was as much a problem but the preparedness for the potential situation seems weak and subsequent response to the lack of preparedness slow re: the general availability of PPE and testing. |
There is something a little strange about PPE but I'm not sure exactly what it is yet, it might be that mortals like me don't appreciate the absolute scale of what is coming in and being used - and what is actually required.
Right at this very moment I am trying to fly in 175,000 masks from China and was just about to confirm it - until just now I'm advised by our freight agent that since earlier this year PPE suppliers require an export license so I'm now having to tackle that. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:20 - Apr 20 with 1100 views | sparks |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:48 - Apr 20 by Swansea_Blue |
I rarely come across Nawaz so don't know much about him, but he does seem very confident in his opinions (presumably that's his job though if he's a shock jock).
As for SARS/MERS, was there criticism of us 'wasting money' preparing for at least one of those? You could be right in that there was an assumption that this would play the same way; maybe a bit of cry wolf over our (in the end) unnecessary responses to those? Who knows.
What's sure is that people were raising concerns over the government's response throughout this whole process. They've been criticised by the WHO, former scientific advisor, various leading academics, etc. And going back some time too. It's not just a hindsight issue as is being made out. |
He's not a shock jock. he is an intelligent and well informed ex political candidate, who is also a former muslim extremist who now champions anti- radicalisation and rationality, as well as seeking to influence Islam from within. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:28 - Apr 20 with 1086 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:20 - Apr 20 by sparks |
He's not a shock jock. he is an intelligent and well informed ex political candidate, who is also a former muslim extremist who now champions anti- radicalisation and rationality, as well as seeking to influence Islam from within. |
Sparks is a terrorist sympathiser. 😂
This board has pulled all the stops recently |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:38 - Apr 20 with 1060 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:09 - Apr 20 by Lord_Lucan |
There is something a little strange about PPE but I'm not sure exactly what it is yet, it might be that mortals like me don't appreciate the absolute scale of what is coming in and being used - and what is actually required.
Right at this very moment I am trying to fly in 175,000 masks from China and was just about to confirm it - until just now I'm advised by our freight agent that since earlier this year PPE suppliers require an export license so I'm now having to tackle that. |
Presumably one of the reasons for requiring an export license is to protect home supply. |  |
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| The right of reply.... on 11:40 - Apr 20 with 1054 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The right of reply.... on 07:30 - Apr 20 by DanTheMan |
That's a really strange Government response. Certainly addresses some of the points but does it in a manner more akin to an argument on Twitter than what I'd expect for an official piece from a Government department.
Annoyingly they don't go into much of the detail about things that are really important with regards to pandemic planning and really focus in on the whole COBR(A) stuff which is a bit of a side show. For example the pandemic planning being bumped off constantly before this all kicked off isn't mentioned.
They do mention they had planned "legislative proposals", and whilst that's all good, they don't then refute the specific claim that Cygnus highlighted a lack of ventilators and PPE. If that is true then it's not like this is some hindsight scenario where we couldn't have possibly known they would have been needed.
I did find this bit funny in a sad way:
Claim - By the time the Prime Minister chaired a COBR meeting on March 2 ‘the virus had sneaked into our airports, our trains, our workplaces and our homes. Britain was on course for one of the worst infections of the most insidious virus to have hit the world in a century.'
Response - This virus has hit countries across the world. It is ridiculous to suggest that coronavirus only reached the UK because the Health Secretary and not the PM chaired a COBR meeting.
That's an interesting rebuttal... |
Must admit that on my first reading I couldn't get passed "Our response has ensured that the NHS has been given all the support it needs" as it's a blatant lie, but have just gone back to read it.
It is a bit of a strange response in places. It doesn't get past the accusation that they've been very selective in which advice they've listened to. There's a fair bit of spin in there, but also some genuine corrections of problems with the ST piece.
Some of the ST claims are very general (I think I mentioned yesterday, the unnamed sources limited its credibility), so quite easy to refute in general terms, yet we know there were fundamental issues in the planning. Take the ventilator issue - they were warned that the low-tech route they were going down wasn't appropriate. And surprise, surprise that's how it panned out with one of the three selected bids collapsing, one being put on hold and one failing to get approvals so far, all because the technology wasn't suitable. (I'm not sure what the latest is on that, but last we heard only 100 suitable ventilators had come from that exercise).
There's titt and tatt on both sides over this, and I'm not sure either side comes out smelling of roses. | |
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| The right of reply.... on 11:42 - Apr 20 with 1046 views | monytowbray |
| The right of reply.... on 11:40 - Apr 20 by Swansea_Blue |
Must admit that on my first reading I couldn't get passed "Our response has ensured that the NHS has been given all the support it needs" as it's a blatant lie, but have just gone back to read it.
It is a bit of a strange response in places. It doesn't get past the accusation that they've been very selective in which advice they've listened to. There's a fair bit of spin in there, but also some genuine corrections of problems with the ST piece.
Some of the ST claims are very general (I think I mentioned yesterday, the unnamed sources limited its credibility), so quite easy to refute in general terms, yet we know there were fundamental issues in the planning. Take the ventilator issue - they were warned that the low-tech route they were going down wasn't appropriate. And surprise, surprise that's how it panned out with one of the three selected bids collapsing, one being put on hold and one failing to get approvals so far, all because the technology wasn't suitable. (I'm not sure what the latest is on that, but last we heard only 100 suitable ventilators had come from that exercise).
There's titt and tatt on both sides over this, and I'm not sure either side comes out smelling of roses. |
Tories warring among themselves was never going to be pretty though. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:44 - Apr 20 with 1035 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:20 - Apr 20 by sparks |
He's not a shock jock. he is an intelligent and well informed ex political candidate, who is also a former muslim extremist who now champions anti- radicalisation and rationality, as well as seeking to influence Islam from within. |
Hmmm. That's maybe more the bio blurb than the reality of him being a professional contrarian who's at least sharp enough to argue any point.
I lost most of the respect I had for him when he effectively dismissed Tory islamophobia as not an issue worth worrying about, despite it being far too pervasive in our politics and media. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:54 - Apr 20 with 1014 views | gordon |
This is a good, clear summary of where we are:
Just meant the first summary from Devi Sridhar, not Piers contribution (although he certainly has a point). [Post edited 20 Apr 2020 11:56]
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| The right of reply.... on 12:23 - Apr 20 with 958 views | itfcjoe |
| The right of reply.... on 11:40 - Apr 20 by Swansea_Blue |
Must admit that on my first reading I couldn't get passed "Our response has ensured that the NHS has been given all the support it needs" as it's a blatant lie, but have just gone back to read it.
It is a bit of a strange response in places. It doesn't get past the accusation that they've been very selective in which advice they've listened to. There's a fair bit of spin in there, but also some genuine corrections of problems with the ST piece.
Some of the ST claims are very general (I think I mentioned yesterday, the unnamed sources limited its credibility), so quite easy to refute in general terms, yet we know there were fundamental issues in the planning. Take the ventilator issue - they were warned that the low-tech route they were going down wasn't appropriate. And surprise, surprise that's how it panned out with one of the three selected bids collapsing, one being put on hold and one failing to get approvals so far, all because the technology wasn't suitable. (I'm not sure what the latest is on that, but last we heard only 100 suitable ventilators had come from that exercise).
There's titt and tatt on both sides over this, and I'm not sure either side comes out smelling of roses. |
Talking of LBC presenters....
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:24 - Apr 20 with 954 views | giant_stow |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:28 - Apr 20 by monytowbray |
Sparks is a terrorist sympathiser. 😂
This board has pulled all the stops recently |
I'd watch talk like that mr - Majid has sued people for saying similar things (although I've no idea if your comment is over the legal line or not) |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:27 - Apr 20 with 942 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:24 - Apr 20 by giant_stow |
I'd watch talk like that mr - Majid has sued people for saying similar things (although I've no idea if your comment is over the legal line or not) |
I have no beef with his former views. I was just more surprised by Buller's take. Just seems a bit rich for the person who shouted IRA SYMPATHISER about Corbyn a lot without evidently understanding of the underlying issues in NI throughout the troubles would do such a switcheroo when it suited him.
I guess when you have to change your opinion every 5 minutes depending on who's paying you to defend/fight for them results in a lot of cognitive dissonance. [Post edited 20 Apr 2020 12:29]
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:29 - Apr 20 with 930 views | giant_stow |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:27 - Apr 20 by monytowbray |
I have no beef with his former views. I was just more surprised by Buller's take. Just seems a bit rich for the person who shouted IRA SYMPATHISER about Corbyn a lot without evidently understanding of the underlying issues in NI throughout the troubles would do such a switcheroo when it suited him.
I guess when you have to change your opinion every 5 minutes depending on who's paying you to defend/fight for them results in a lot of cognitive dissonance. [Post edited 20 Apr 2020 12:29]
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Not making any comment on the rights and wrongs - just don't want to see you in needless bother. Just be careful - he's not afraid to go legal. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:30 - Apr 20 with 918 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:29 - Apr 20 by giant_stow |
Not making any comment on the rights and wrongs - just don't want to see you in needless bother. Just be careful - he's not afraid to go legal. |
I edited the post as I realise i didn't word it clearly. Diving on here between work means it happens. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:02 - Apr 20 with 863 views | Clapham_Junction |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 08:06 - Apr 20 by GlasgowBlue |
The video is from 2018 but the first link is from less than a year ago.
I still can’t anyone to address the content rather then the presenter. Nor can I get anyone to answer the following questions.
Do those who are criticising the government's handling of this crisis want Ministers to follow the advice of their experts at a time of national crisis, or do they not?
If Johnson had announced that the country was being placed under the most draconian lock-down in peacetime against the advice of his senior science and medical advisers, would they have happily accepted that or would they have been on here crying that we are "sleepwalking into fascism" and that the "Brexiteers don't listen to experts"?
The devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are responsible for health policy in their countries. Why do they follow the same strategy? |
I'm sure most of us want the government to follow their expert advice they've been given. But as pointed out by a few people in a thread a couple of weeks ago, that's not necessarily what governments do.
Experts give advice, politicians say 'we don't want to do that'. A compromise is reached and both sides have to back that decision in public. |  | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:21 - Apr 20 with 842 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:02 - Apr 20 by Clapham_Junction |
I'm sure most of us want the government to follow their expert advice they've been given. But as pointed out by a few people in a thread a couple of weeks ago, that's not necessarily what governments do.
Experts give advice, politicians say 'we don't want to do that'. A compromise is reached and both sides have to back that decision in public. |
Indeed.
I don't see why there isn't more transparency around the science and the healthcare expertise if that's what's leading the response. It's a non-political issue.
But if this is more about the government appearing strong, stable and in control then it doesn't look like it's working for them or their science. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:26 - Apr 20 with 832 views | bluelagos |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 08:45 - Apr 20 by Mullet |
You too old boy, I'm off to work as it were. |
I once was on a ITFC supporters coach (Sat next to PJH) when LBC phoned me up for a live interview. Didn't do it.
(Had done one with Nick Ferrari post Hillsborough inquest and they had me on their system)
Edit - relied to the wrong post - can't be arsed to repost. Someone posted about being asked to do an LBC interview. [Post edited 20 Apr 2020 13:37]
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:41 - Apr 20 with 809 views | eireblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:02 - Apr 20 by Clapham_Junction |
I'm sure most of us want the government to follow their expert advice they've been given. But as pointed out by a few people in a thread a couple of weeks ago, that's not necessarily what governments do.
Experts give advice, politicians say 'we don't want to do that'. A compromise is reached and both sides have to back that decision in public. |
The expert advise was to communicate clearly why the government were taking certain actions, including when UK government actions differed from other guidance or actions.
Unless the UK government has said things like, the reason we are doing X, although the WHO recommended Y, and Italy did Z, then they haven’t fully followed expert advice.
Which means politicians maybe guided by expert advise, but they are not simply following all advice.
Seems to me, since Gove has stated that mistakes made will be reviewed in time, then discussing those mistakes, and comparing UK response to other places, doesn’t seem an unreasonable activity on a fairly active message board. |  | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 14:11 - Apr 20 with 762 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:38 - Apr 20 by Pinewoodblue |
Presumably one of the reasons for requiring an export license is to protect home supply. |
More to do with the factory is a bona fida factory but it's a bit daft as they require CE marking anyway so that should be enough.
I thought they relaxed this in light of the supply chain problem but my freight agent says no. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 14:54 - Apr 20 with 707 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:20 - Apr 20 by sparks |
He's not a shock jock. he is an intelligent and well informed ex political candidate, who is also a former muslim extremist who now champions anti- radicalisation and rationality, as well as seeking to influence Islam from within. |
That's me put right then. Whoever he is and whatever his background, he seemed very certain about his opinions without any real evidence in those series of tweets. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 14:54 - Apr 20 with 706 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:28 - Apr 20 by monytowbray |
Sparks is a terrorist sympathiser. 😂
This board has pulled all the stops recently |
Sparks said he was a former extremist, not a terrorist.
You may wish to revisit the words you just used as you could get yourself and Phil into legal bother.
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 14:55 - Apr 20 with 712 views | Swansea_Blue |
A response to the Government response, from the editor of the Lancet.
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 15:05 - Apr 20 with 690 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 14:54 - Apr 20 by GlasgowBlue |
Sparks said he was a former extremist, not a terrorist.
You may wish to revisit the words you just used as you could get yourself and Phil into legal bother.
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Indeed. Sparks is a terrorist sympathiser sympathiser although I have some sympathy with that. | |
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