| The Times with another explosive scoop.... 19:25 - Apr 18 with 20245 views | itfcjoe |
Won’t be long until these Tories are truly held to account.
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:12 - Apr 19 with 1448 views | pointofblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:00 - Apr 19 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, Brexit was definitely a huge factor and probably the biggest given how it dominated politics for the two years before as we approached the March 2019 exit and then the subsequent political manoeuvrings after that.
But again this is against the backdrop of Corbyn (and even his Brexit compromise when it came to that) being characterised as incompetent, mudddled, dangerous, out of touch etc for over 4 years. That's while we'd actually lived through 10 years of the actual incompetent, mudddled, dangerous, out of touch Tory government and they would be the only beneficiaries of such a campaign.
Politicians aren't going to change, of course. I'm actually more depressed about the state of our media that can't speak truth to power because it's either campaigning for the sitting government and against the opposition or too busy trying to get on the inside and raise their own media profiles. |
The problem was, when challenged, Corbyn came across at times as incompetent, muddled and out of touch. His interview with Andrew Neil prior to the December election was painful. Now every leader was shredded by Neil - every one who dared to face him, that is - by Corbyn’s stood out as particularly painful. He never could get the handle of Prime Minister’s questions either and appeared more often than not to be on the back foot when he should have been the one putting the Government under scrutiny. Unfortunately a lot of politics is about image and presentation and, whilst Corbyn was excellent in selling his ideas to those who had faith in his ideals, he struggled to gain confidence in others. That was fine when the Conservatives had a leader in the same position as him but not when they had someone who could talk the talk - even if they couldn’t walk the walk. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:23 - Apr 19 with 1434 views | Ryorry |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:12 - Apr 19 by pointofblue |
The problem was, when challenged, Corbyn came across at times as incompetent, muddled and out of touch. His interview with Andrew Neil prior to the December election was painful. Now every leader was shredded by Neil - every one who dared to face him, that is - by Corbyn’s stood out as particularly painful. He never could get the handle of Prime Minister’s questions either and appeared more often than not to be on the back foot when he should have been the one putting the Government under scrutiny. Unfortunately a lot of politics is about image and presentation and, whilst Corbyn was excellent in selling his ideas to those who had faith in his ideals, he struggled to gain confidence in others. That was fine when the Conservatives had a leader in the same position as him but not when they had someone who could talk the talk - even if they couldn’t walk the walk. |
Quite - for me the issue wasn't how the media portrayed Corbyn, as I completely ignored them on that. The problem was what JC himself said & did (or didn't do), plus his body language.
He came across as weak, indecisive and not in control - exactly what you don't want in a leader. Those who doubt this should listen to what numerous Labour candidates' Agents said re feedback from the doorstep when they were canvassing in Dec last year - tens of thousands of voters saying they wouldn't vote Labour because of JC. And that was in traditional Labour heartlands in the N of England. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:26 - Apr 19 with 1428 views | BlueBadger |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 09:51 - Apr 19 by r2d2 |
#anotherleftiebumfestthread |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:27 - Apr 19 with 1426 views | Plums |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:23 - Apr 19 by Ryorry |
Quite - for me the issue wasn't how the media portrayed Corbyn, as I completely ignored them on that. The problem was what JC himself said & did (or didn't do), plus his body language.
He came across as weak, indecisive and not in control - exactly what you don't want in a leader. Those who doubt this should listen to what numerous Labour candidates' Agents said re feedback from the doorstep when they were canvassing in Dec last year - tens of thousands of voters saying they wouldn't vote Labour because of JC. And that was in traditional Labour heartlands in the N of England. |
For me, it wasn’t even Corbyn as much as Momentum, as equally dangerous a bunch of loons as Cummings and his ilk - just without the financial and media backing. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:27 - Apr 19 with 1425 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:12 - Apr 19 by pointofblue |
The problem was, when challenged, Corbyn came across at times as incompetent, muddled and out of touch. His interview with Andrew Neil prior to the December election was painful. Now every leader was shredded by Neil - every one who dared to face him, that is - by Corbyn’s stood out as particularly painful. He never could get the handle of Prime Minister’s questions either and appeared more often than not to be on the back foot when he should have been the one putting the Government under scrutiny. Unfortunately a lot of politics is about image and presentation and, whilst Corbyn was excellent in selling his ideas to those who had faith in his ideals, he struggled to gain confidence in others. That was fine when the Conservatives had a leader in the same position as him but not when they had someone who could talk the talk - even if they couldn’t walk the walk. |
I agree that Corbyn isn't a statesman and there's a certain managerial quality people look for (even if it's the bluff of a media-friendly CEO like BoJo or Trump). That's fair enough but these are still superficials.
The problem was that the policies were freely attacked and misrepresented as Marxist and/or crazy. Or that Corbyn's deeper instincts were anti-British. That he hated success etc. etc.
These were misleading and dangerous characterisations that went way beyond presentation and personality. And yet they were freely traded in the media as if they were all part of the game.
Ultimately that playing of the game and not taking policy (or the effects of government policy) seriously has left us with a mess of dodgy, unaccountable politicians and a truly compromised media that's in too deep themselves. The result is disillusionment and disenfranchisement among the population which can then be exploited by Farage, Robinson and their ilk for even worse and more destructive policies in the future. We've been watching a race to the bottom because of how we've stood by and watched politics and the media become an industry that serves its own needs and the needs of those who have the major cash to buy into it. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:32 - Apr 19 with 1417 views | BlueBadger |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:12 - Apr 19 by sparks |
Its almost as if you didnt read what you were replying to. |
Ironically enough, this is exactly the sort of 'political point scoring' you claim to hate. We're all in this together at a time of crisis right? So anyone not pulling their weight or making it worse SHOULD be criticised, no? | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:39 - Apr 19 with 1388 views | Ryorry |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:27 - Apr 19 by Plums |
For me, it wasn’t even Corbyn as much as Momentum, as equally dangerous a bunch of loons as Cummings and his ilk - just without the financial and media backing. |
Yep, they often appeared to be the puppeteers pulling JC's strings. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:39 - Apr 19 with 1385 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:23 - Apr 19 by Ryorry |
Quite - for me the issue wasn't how the media portrayed Corbyn, as I completely ignored them on that. The problem was what JC himself said & did (or didn't do), plus his body language.
He came across as weak, indecisive and not in control - exactly what you don't want in a leader. Those who doubt this should listen to what numerous Labour candidates' Agents said re feedback from the doorstep when they were canvassing in Dec last year - tens of thousands of voters saying they wouldn't vote Labour because of JC. And that was in traditional Labour heartlands in the N of England. |
"Body language"!? Give me an example please.
All seems a bit silly in a modern democracy which is meant to be about representing people and tackling the real challenges in society and the world.
Everything you're talking about was, of course, amplified by the media. So not sure how you or anyone on the doorstep managed to ignore it. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:44 - Apr 19 with 1363 views | Ryorry |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:39 - Apr 19 by Darth_Koont |
"Body language"!? Give me an example please.
All seems a bit silly in a modern democracy which is meant to be about representing people and tackling the real challenges in society and the world.
Everything you're talking about was, of course, amplified by the media. So not sure how you or anyone on the doorstep managed to ignore it. |
How on earth do you expect me to pull up hundreds of video clips from 6 months - 5 years ago?!
I took no notice whatsoever of media "portrayal", I simply listened to and watched him. And don't say that was selective, as it included hundreds of live broadcasts, including Wednesday Questions to the PM in the HoC. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:51 - Apr 19 with 1346 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:27 - Apr 19 by Plums |
For me, it wasn’t even Corbyn as much as Momentum, as equally dangerous a bunch of loons as Cummings and his ilk - just without the financial and media backing. |
They were supporters certainly. But that comparison doesn't really stand up.
Lansman and Momentum were grassroots activists trying to sway voters from outside the traditional party lines. Like Farage and UKIP/The Brexit Partyultimately did for the Conservatives. Both had influence on the leaderships of the respective parties by mobilising people.
Cummings is something else entirely. A political machine who has grasped how politics actually works and how he can game it. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:52 - Apr 19 with 1340 views | Churchman |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:03 - Apr 19 by giant_stow |
Cobra meetings tend to be a little bit important, no? |
To be fair, I think the nature, frequency and content of COBRA meetings have changed in recent years. I’d be interested to know how many there have been in the past say six months, who attended them and what the agendas were. More than people think, I suspect.
Using words like ‘skipped’ 5 Cobra meetings implies that he couldn’t be bothered to attend, which equates to ignorant, lazy, uncaring and no judgement. Maybe that’s the case, given my views on how badly this disaster has been handled. But without knowing the answers to the above paragraph there’s a danger that things will be taken out of context - something our dear beloved media and opposition politicians love to do.
The reality is that it doesn’t matter if Johnson attended every meeting, committee, sub-committee, working groups, focus groups, weekly Pilates and read every word of every minister (the last one T May used to do), he and his shambles of a government are accountable for the mishandling of this. Nobody else, just them and as PM, he can work 24/7, be in hospital or stay forever in his hidey hole, he is accountable person no 1. |  | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:54 - Apr 19 with 1330 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:44 - Apr 19 by Ryorry |
How on earth do you expect me to pull up hundreds of video clips from 6 months - 5 years ago?!
I took no notice whatsoever of media "portrayal", I simply listened to and watched him. And don't say that was selective, as it included hundreds of live broadcasts, including Wednesday Questions to the PM in the HoC. |
So you can't point to anything specific? It was just a feeling you had?
Never underestimate how much those non-specific feelings come from the outside. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:03 - Apr 19 with 1303 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:33 - Apr 19 by sparks |
How can you possibly know?
I dont know- so I dont assume. Certainly there are questions to be asked. [Post edited 19 Apr 2020 11:34]
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How can we know that he's not committed? Might have something to do with the civil service leaks about him going MIA, as raised in the Sunday Times piece. We won't know the half of it for sure, and yes media pieces should be taken with a pinch of salt especially when sources are not named. But on the other hand there are unquoted sources saying it was a problem and he should have been there.
There's also a long list of other evidence that Boris isn't the most conscientious and doesn't want to get involved in stuff or take responsibility. We've heard it from former employer(s?), colleagues and others he's worked with over the years.
So the civil service leak might be rubbish, but it's certainly in character.
(He doesn't even want to get involved with some of his kids. Although that isn't relevant to whether he can do a job, it is another insight into the character of the man). |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:04 - Apr 19 with 1299 views | Ryorry |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:54 - Apr 19 by Darth_Koont |
So you can't point to anything specific? It was just a feeling you had?
Never underestimate how much those non-specific feelings come from the outside. |
Yes I could if I had a week spare and it weren't sunny at the busiest time of year in my large garden; no; and I already did. People know what I'm talking about, just you that apparently doesn't. [Post edited 19 Apr 2020 13:07]
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:06 - Apr 19 with 1284 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:04 - Apr 19 by Ryorry |
Yes I could if I had a week spare and it weren't sunny at the busiest time of year in my large garden; no; and I already did. People know what I'm talking about, just you that apparently doesn't. [Post edited 19 Apr 2020 13:07]
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Righto! | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:07 - Apr 19 with 1282 views | Guthrum |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:58 - Apr 19 by sparks |
Not really enough information imo.
Meeting being set up- Boris says "I haev these key things to deal with- am I needed?"
Senior folks say "no- we're good, we'll report back to you and get you on the phone if there is anythign very major to decide that we havent already discussed".
"Righto."
This is what goes on with meetings and senior people in every organisation. It may be that he was being lackadaisical. There may have been good reasons. Too many simply make assumptions though. |
I'm more going by things I've heard from people who've worked in his departments. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:11 - Apr 19 with 1263 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:12 - Apr 19 by pointofblue |
The problem was, when challenged, Corbyn came across at times as incompetent, muddled and out of touch. His interview with Andrew Neil prior to the December election was painful. Now every leader was shredded by Neil - every one who dared to face him, that is - by Corbyn’s stood out as particularly painful. He never could get the handle of Prime Minister’s questions either and appeared more often than not to be on the back foot when he should have been the one putting the Government under scrutiny. Unfortunately a lot of politics is about image and presentation and, whilst Corbyn was excellent in selling his ideas to those who had faith in his ideals, he struggled to gain confidence in others. That was fine when the Conservatives had a leader in the same position as him but not when they had someone who could talk the talk - even if they couldn’t walk the walk. |
Corbiyn admitting he folund the prospect of being PM daunting was the final straw for me. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:15 - Apr 19 with 1254 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:11 - Apr 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Corbiyn admitting he folund the prospect of being PM daunting was the final straw for me. |
It's politically naive or refreshingly honest depending on how you see it.
Contrast that with BoJo's cavalier and casual approach to being Foreign Secretary or (as it seems so far) PM, and I think I'd rather have someone daunted by the task and the responsibility. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:23 - Apr 19 with 1226 views | EdwardStone |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:03 - Apr 19 by Swansea_Blue |
How can we know that he's not committed? Might have something to do with the civil service leaks about him going MIA, as raised in the Sunday Times piece. We won't know the half of it for sure, and yes media pieces should be taken with a pinch of salt especially when sources are not named. But on the other hand there are unquoted sources saying it was a problem and he should have been there.
There's also a long list of other evidence that Boris isn't the most conscientious and doesn't want to get involved in stuff or take responsibility. We've heard it from former employer(s?), colleagues and others he's worked with over the years.
So the civil service leak might be rubbish, but it's certainly in character.
(He doesn't even want to get involved with some of his kids. Although that isn't relevant to whether he can do a job, it is another insight into the character of the man). |
I know someone who was MLA when Johnson was Mayor
They stated the he was idle, never read briefing sheets and survived by busking it "on the wing"
I always felt that he would run the country like he runs his private life; chaotic, reckless and generating massive crushing disappointment for many people
I now see that is seems his turbulent private life has actually prevented him from giving the country his full and proper attention
He is a deeply flawed human and should not be allowed to hold public office
* Edit...MLA * [Post edited 19 Apr 2020 16:46]
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:26 - Apr 19 with 1216 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:15 - Apr 19 by Darth_Koont |
It's politically naive or refreshingly honest depending on how you see it.
Contrast that with BoJo's cavalier and casual approach to being Foreign Secretary or (as it seems so far) PM, and I think I'd rather have someone daunted by the task and the responsibility. |
Maybe but it came over that he doubted his own ability | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:36 - Apr 19 with 1194 views | manchego |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 20:16 - Apr 18 by BloomBlue |
But it wouldn't be brutal you only have to look at the Iraq inquiry and see how Blair got off |
146 out of 148 Tories voted with Blair on Iraq. |  | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:47 - Apr 19 with 1181 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:26 - Apr 19 by Pinewoodblue |
Maybe but it came over that he doubted his own ability |
Well, conscious incompetence is further along the road to actual competence than unconscious incompetence.
It's a sign of competent people to admit what they don't know or where they are inexperienced. And it's a sign of dangerous narcissists that they never do. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:48 - Apr 19 with 1180 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:36 - Apr 19 by manchego |
146 out of 148 Tories voted with Blair on Iraq. |
It’s almost as if party politics is boll0cks if every party is the same neo liberal ideology in a different tie. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:51 - Apr 19 with 1173 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:48 - Apr 19 by monytowbray |
It’s almost as if party politics is boll0cks if every party is the same neo liberal ideology in a different tie. |
2015-2020 it didn't. I'll even give Miliband some credit for bucking the neoliberal juggernaut too.
Fingers crossed, Starmer is true to his word and still committed to most of those progressive policies. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:59 - Apr 19 with 1160 views | monytowbray |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 13:51 - Apr 19 by Darth_Koont |
2015-2020 it didn't. I'll even give Miliband some credit for bucking the neoliberal juggernaut too.
Fingers crossed, Starmer is true to his word and still committed to most of those progressive policies. |
Oh 100% agree. But the neoliberals didn’t want that so they sabotaged their own party. | |
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