| The Times with another explosive scoop.... 19:25 - Apr 18 with 20257 views | itfcjoe |
Won’t be long until these Tories are truly held to account.
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:58 - Apr 19 with 1499 views | jaykay |
i'm waiting for the ' i didnt vote tory but' blah blah |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:03 - Apr 19 with 1504 views | giant_stow |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:58 - Apr 19 by sparks |
Not really enough information imo.
Meeting being set up- Boris says "I haev these key things to deal with- am I needed?"
Senior folks say "no- we're good, we'll report back to you and get you on the phone if there is anythign very major to decide that we havent already discussed".
"Righto."
This is what goes on with meetings and senior people in every organisation. It may be that he was being lackadaisical. There may have been good reasons. Too many simply make assumptions though. |
Cobra meetings tend to be a little bit important, no? |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:06 - Apr 19 with 1486 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:50 - Apr 19 by tractordownsouth |
That stuff with the officials was awful and they should have been sacked, but the idea that it affected the election 2017 result in any meaningful way is misguided. Besides, they weren’t in charge in 2019 and that was our worst defeat in years, so they can’t be blamed for that.
It’s not necessarily a case of factionalism - sure, the manifesto was hard to get behind for many moderate voters, but a different leader with the same manifesto would have at least made a fist of it. Don’t get me wrong, I’d have preferred JC to Johnson any day, but his dodgy past associations, as well as his response to the Salisbury poisoning made many voters feel like he didn’t love this country .Whether that’s justified or not, that was the general perception... and having Abbott and McDonnell in high offices was just asking for trouble, electorally. The has to stop with him, I wish it didn’t and I was still supportive of Labour at the GE, but it’s abundantly clear that he wasn’t anything other than ineffective |
Of course it had an effect in both elections. 2017 was by the slenderest of margins from being a Centre-Left alliance in government and 2019 was where the antisemitism complaints were the loudest. These anti-democratic, reactionary feckers were a part of that.
And I lost count of how many commentators and voters said that they didn't think Corbyn was an antisemite but he needed to be doing more about the problem ... and there you have Sam Matthews at the centre of the accusations on Panorama who is the one doing most of the damage. It's a sick joke.
The Labour Party is done unless it really gets to grips with this and gets much, much clearer on what their job is. And who and what they need to represent. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:06 - Apr 19 with 1492 views | pointofblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:43 - Apr 19 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, you got it wrong.
The choice needs to be between sensible left-wing policies and sensible right-wing policies. The problem in the UK is we’ve gone a fair bit to the right so the relatively benign social democracy of the Labour Party manifestos of 2017 and 2019 has been painted by many as radical and extreme. But they’re not - they’re bog-standard European centre-left politics and a necessary answer to several decades of increasing inequality and under-investment.
A backdrop of a predominantly right-wing media with even the “centrist” media being highly resistant to upsetting the cosy status quo has left us here. It’s taken a pandemic to perhaps snap us out of it. |
Bar the obvious independence belief do you think Sturgeon would have had the same problem in drumming up votes in England as leader of Labour as Corbyn did in 2019? I do think a lot of the resistance towards the party was because of Corbyn himself and Starmer will have a much better chance of reclaiming votes lost.
In terms of policy my key concern is nationalisation as I don’t think the Treasury will be able to sustain the additional burden. There was also a concern when Corbyn couldn’t say where the money would come from to reimburse the Waspi women and the IFS stated that Labour’s claim that 95% of taxpayers wouldn’t have to pay more was incorrect.
Just to put my cards on the table, I voted for the Greens in December despite disagreeing with their regulated legalisation of Cannabis. I wouldn’t consider myself right wing but nothing added up with Labour’s policies. Admittedly that’s nothing new with political parties so you have to trust the leader will be able to join the dots and Corbyn never presented to me as being able to do so, either in the Commons or when being interviewed or challenged.
In hindsight the worst thing which could have happened was him presenting a real and direct challenge in the 2017 general election. It allowed him to fight another election which resulted, in turn, in the Conservatives moving even further to the right. May’s ministry had a lot of faults but she was not as far right as Johnson (or those who have his ear) are. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:11 - Apr 19 with 1482 views | eireblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 10:58 - Apr 19 by sparks |
Not really enough information imo.
Meeting being set up- Boris says "I haev these key things to deal with- am I needed?"
Senior folks say "no- we're good, we'll report back to you and get you on the phone if there is anythign very major to decide that we havent already discussed".
"Righto."
This is what goes on with meetings and senior people in every organisation. It may be that he was being lackadaisical. There may have been good reasons. Too many simply make assumptions though. |
Evidence that prime ministers regularly skip COBRA meetings? |  | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:12 - Apr 19 with 1477 views | sparks |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:11 - Apr 19 by eireblue |
Evidence that prime ministers regularly skip COBRA meetings? |
Its almost as if you didnt read what you were replying to. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:14 - Apr 19 with 1470 views | sparks |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:03 - Apr 19 by giant_stow |
Cobra meetings tend to be a little bit important, no? |
I dont know. Could there be other matters that were more important? Could it have been that these were less significant ones? Could it have been that there was agreement that all agenda items were very capable of being handled by the rest of the attendees? So many possibilities- and yet determined assumptions are made.
The right answer, sometimes, is "We dont know- but would like to know more". | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:17 - Apr 19 with 1454 views | Herbivore |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:03 - Apr 19 by giant_stow |
Cobra meetings tend to be a little bit important, no? |
It shouldn't even need stating. The lengths some of these Tory boys will go to so they can try to deflect criticism. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:18 - Apr 19 with 1449 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:06 - Apr 19 by pointofblue |
Bar the obvious independence belief do you think Sturgeon would have had the same problem in drumming up votes in England as leader of Labour as Corbyn did in 2019? I do think a lot of the resistance towards the party was because of Corbyn himself and Starmer will have a much better chance of reclaiming votes lost.
In terms of policy my key concern is nationalisation as I don’t think the Treasury will be able to sustain the additional burden. There was also a concern when Corbyn couldn’t say where the money would come from to reimburse the Waspi women and the IFS stated that Labour’s claim that 95% of taxpayers wouldn’t have to pay more was incorrect.
Just to put my cards on the table, I voted for the Greens in December despite disagreeing with their regulated legalisation of Cannabis. I wouldn’t consider myself right wing but nothing added up with Labour’s policies. Admittedly that’s nothing new with political parties so you have to trust the leader will be able to join the dots and Corbyn never presented to me as being able to do so, either in the Commons or when being interviewed or challenged.
In hindsight the worst thing which could have happened was him presenting a real and direct challenge in the 2017 general election. It allowed him to fight another election which resulted, in turn, in the Conservatives moving even further to the right. May’s ministry had a lot of faults but she was not as far right as Johnson (or those who have his ear) are. |
Greens are fair enough, good on you. Think that's where I'll be heading back to unless I see a commitment to change from the Labour Party and Starmer (and an honesty dealing with the mess of internal politics).
We sound similar in that we both seem to vote on policy rather than party colours or personalities. I think policies can and should be discussed on their own merits - but then the backdrop of having Corbyn as the most smeared and misrepresented politician ever gets totally in the way of that. And we end up voting in jolly BoJo waving a Union Jack even after a decade of austerity, Brexit nonsense and widening gaps in our society and Union.
I think we've been played as a country for far too long by people who want to keep power and their own interests intact rather than be democratically representative and responsible. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:21 - Apr 19 with 1434 views | giant_stow |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:14 - Apr 19 by sparks |
I dont know. Could there be other matters that were more important? Could it have been that these were less significant ones? Could it have been that there was agreement that all agenda items were very capable of being handled by the rest of the attendees? So many possibilities- and yet determined assumptions are made.
The right answer, sometimes, is "We dont know- but would like to know more". |
Some assumptions are reasonable, such as assuming that a prime minster might want to attend a meeting of high-level crisis management during a pandemic. Perhaps missing one for a very good unknown reason might be acceptable, but not 5. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:22 - Apr 19 with 1429 views | Dubtractor |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:03 - Apr 19 by giant_stow |
Cobra meetings tend to be a little bit important, no? |
Be fair now, it was only 5 cobra meetings that he missed. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:23 - Apr 19 with 1420 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:14 - Apr 19 by sparks |
I dont know. Could there be other matters that were more important? Could it have been that these were less significant ones? Could it have been that there was agreement that all agenda items were very capable of being handled by the rest of the attendees? So many possibilities- and yet determined assumptions are made.
The right answer, sometimes, is "We dont know- but would like to know more". |
Well he does have a very complicated home life to be fair. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:25 - Apr 19 with 1421 views | eireblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:12 - Apr 19 by sparks |
Its almost as if you didnt read what you were replying to. |
“ This is what goes on with meetings and senior people in every organisation.”
Your post has an implicit bias or suggestion that COBRA meetings are like meetings in every organisation.
Unless there is evidence that COBRA meetings and a PM attendance is like other senior people attendance at meetings in every organisation, then your point is not really relevant.
COBRA meetings are held during times of national emergency, not when discussing a new marketing strategy. | | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:29 - Apr 19 with 1410 views | pointofblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:18 - Apr 19 by Darth_Koont |
Greens are fair enough, good on you. Think that's where I'll be heading back to unless I see a commitment to change from the Labour Party and Starmer (and an honesty dealing with the mess of internal politics).
We sound similar in that we both seem to vote on policy rather than party colours or personalities. I think policies can and should be discussed on their own merits - but then the backdrop of having Corbyn as the most smeared and misrepresented politician ever gets totally in the way of that. And we end up voting in jolly BoJo waving a Union Jack even after a decade of austerity, Brexit nonsense and widening gaps in our society and Union.
I think we've been played as a country for far too long by people who want to keep power and their own interests intact rather than be democratically representative and responsible. |
It is interesting to note that smearing Corbyn had very little impact in 2017 so I’m not sure whether that was the issue in 2019 or of the simplification of the Conservative Brexit message plus Johnson being able to embrace the ‘man in the pub’ image saw an uplift at Corbyn’s expense. Corbyn came across as personable, if not more so, than May but I think many people saw Johnson as ‘one of them’ and more approachable than Corbyn. I think the smear campaign had done all the damage it could by the 2017 election; it was something simpler yet possibly even more dangerous which had an impact in 2019. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:33 - Apr 19 with 1397 views | sparks |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:21 - Apr 19 by giant_stow |
Some assumptions are reasonable, such as assuming that a prime minster might want to attend a meeting of high-level crisis management during a pandemic. Perhaps missing one for a very good unknown reason might be acceptable, but not 5. |
How can you possibly know?
I dont know- so I dont assume. Certainly there are questions to be asked. [Post edited 19 Apr 2020 11:34]
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| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:35 - Apr 19 with 1392 views | sparks |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:25 - Apr 19 by eireblue |
“ This is what goes on with meetings and senior people in every organisation.”
Your post has an implicit bias or suggestion that COBRA meetings are like meetings in every organisation.
Unless there is evidence that COBRA meetings and a PM attendance is like other senior people attendance at meetings in every organisation, then your point is not really relevant.
COBRA meetings are held during times of national emergency, not when discussing a new marketing strategy. |
No- it doesnt. The post states facts and points out we dont know the details of how and why meetings were missed (assuming they were...), whether PMs presence was expected or needed at those meetings, what else was going on etc etc etc. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:41 - Apr 19 with 1383 views | BlueNomad |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:33 - Apr 19 by sparks |
How can you possibly know?
I dont know- so I dont assume. Certainly there are questions to be asked. [Post edited 19 Apr 2020 11:34]
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He is PM. He can delegate but not abrogate. The PM is responsible. Stop throwing smoke grenades in order to shut this down. As I said earlier, and you tried to shoot me down, regardless of right / left, this government is charged with protecting us all. If you think they are making a good job of it then I believe you are mistaken. Those bits of the audit trail that we see don’t show them in a good light.
They wanted the power - they should have made better use of it. |  | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:41 - Apr 19 with 1383 views | eireblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:35 - Apr 19 by sparks |
No- it doesnt. The post states facts and points out we dont know the details of how and why meetings were missed (assuming they were...), whether PMs presence was expected or needed at those meetings, what else was going on etc etc etc. |
Hence, the question, is it usual for the PM to skip COBRA meetings, the purpose of which is to discuss national emergencies.
The meetings are held out the back of Downing Street.
So it seems entirely reasonable to ask, what was more important to the nation, than the 5 COBRA meetings. | | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:42 - Apr 19 with 1375 views | BlueNomad |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:41 - Apr 19 by eireblue |
Hence, the question, is it usual for the PM to skip COBRA meetings, the purpose of which is to discuss national emergencies.
The meetings are held out the back of Downing Street.
So it seems entirely reasonable to ask, what was more important to the nation, than the 5 COBRA meetings. |
Blue passports? | | | |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:48 - Apr 19 with 1354 views | Herbivore |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:41 - Apr 19 by eireblue |
Hence, the question, is it usual for the PM to skip COBRA meetings, the purpose of which is to discuss national emergencies.
The meetings are held out the back of Downing Street.
So it seems entirely reasonable to ask, what was more important to the nation, than the 5 COBRA meetings. |
Apparently because we don't know for sure our base assumption should be that there was never any need for him to attend the meetings and he must have had something more important on. Honestly, poor Sparks is making himself look entirely ridiculous here. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:51 - Apr 19 with 1346 views | giant_stow |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:33 - Apr 19 by sparks |
How can you possibly know?
I dont know- so I dont assume. Certainly there are questions to be asked. [Post edited 19 Apr 2020 11:34]
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I think you need to remember what Cobra meetings are: surely if soimething was more important than the pandemic, it should have ben discussed in the same bludy meetings! | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:52 - Apr 19 with 1340 views | Ryorry |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:35 - Apr 19 by sparks |
No- it doesnt. The post states facts and points out we dont know the details of how and why meetings were missed (assuming they were...), whether PMs presence was expected or needed at those meetings, what else was going on etc etc etc. |
If he/they considered that it was more important to be elsewhere, then they absolutely should have publicly stated that + given the reasons - along the lines of "justice should not only be done, but be seen to be done".
Johnson's communications and statements during the whole crisis* have been shambolic - frequently bumbling, vague and confusing. There was a long thread on here the other day about what "only go to work if it's necessary and you can't do it from home" means exactly - and that was a good 3 weeks into "lockdown"!
*leaving out the time he was in hospital, obviously. |  |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:54 - Apr 19 with 1327 views | sparks |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:41 - Apr 19 by BlueNomad |
He is PM. He can delegate but not abrogate. The PM is responsible. Stop throwing smoke grenades in order to shut this down. As I said earlier, and you tried to shoot me down, regardless of right / left, this government is charged with protecting us all. If you think they are making a good job of it then I believe you are mistaken. Those bits of the audit trail that we see don’t show them in a good light.
They wanted the power - they should have made better use of it. |
So you know the reasons and the circumstances?
Excellent. Please share so I can reach a proper informed view. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:00 - Apr 19 with 1303 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 11:29 - Apr 19 by pointofblue |
It is interesting to note that smearing Corbyn had very little impact in 2017 so I’m not sure whether that was the issue in 2019 or of the simplification of the Conservative Brexit message plus Johnson being able to embrace the ‘man in the pub’ image saw an uplift at Corbyn’s expense. Corbyn came across as personable, if not more so, than May but I think many people saw Johnson as ‘one of them’ and more approachable than Corbyn. I think the smear campaign had done all the damage it could by the 2017 election; it was something simpler yet possibly even more dangerous which had an impact in 2019. |
Yes, Brexit was definitely a huge factor and probably the biggest given how it dominated politics for the two years before as we approached the March 2019 exit and then the subsequent political manoeuvrings after that.
But again this is against the backdrop of Corbyn (and even his Brexit compromise when it came to that) being characterised as incompetent, mudddled, dangerous, out of touch etc for over 4 years. That's while we'd actually lived through 10 years of the actual incompetent, mudddled, dangerous, out of touch Tory government and they would be the only beneficiaries of such a campaign.
Politicians aren't going to change, of course. I'm actually more depressed about the state of our media that can't speak truth to power because it's either campaigning for the sitting government and against the opposition or too busy trying to get on the inside and raise their own media profiles. | |
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| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:05 - Apr 19 with 1284 views | Pinewoodblue |
| The Times with another explosive scoop.... on 12:00 - Apr 19 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, Brexit was definitely a huge factor and probably the biggest given how it dominated politics for the two years before as we approached the March 2019 exit and then the subsequent political manoeuvrings after that.
But again this is against the backdrop of Corbyn (and even his Brexit compromise when it came to that) being characterised as incompetent, mudddled, dangerous, out of touch etc for over 4 years. That's while we'd actually lived through 10 years of the actual incompetent, mudddled, dangerous, out of touch Tory government and they would be the only beneficiaries of such a campaign.
Politicians aren't going to change, of course. I'm actually more depressed about the state of our media that can't speak truth to power because it's either campaigning for the sitting government and against the opposition or too busy trying to get on the inside and raise their own media profiles. |
Agreed with regards to state of the media. Most days they struggle to put a decent question together. At CV -19 press conferences. |  |
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