| So itfcjoe... 23:54 - Jun 23 with 23784 views | OriginalMarkyP |
What did PC say to Dobra that's so bad that he will definitely leave?
Dobra did actually say he wanted to come back and fight for a first team place. I'm assuming he said that after PC said whatever it was to him. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 15:21 - Jun 24 with 2104 views | chrismakin |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:56 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
But he's known Cook for years - since they were players together - so is a better person to judge than most (certainly most of us on here). |
I think this is one of the biggest frustrations
You have numerous ex players, coaches etc talk about the man that PC is, his honesty, his infectious smile around the ground etc. You have Dyer currently u23 manager praising what he's learnt from PC, loves how open PC is, loves working with him. A Lee praising him and Roberts, what they are, how they are...
Yet because of some thoughts from recently departed players... PC's handling of the situation has been awful..... |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 15:26 - Jun 24 with 2088 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 13:57 - Jun 24 by BloomBlue |
I do find it funny last season PL dropped some youngsters from the team photo session and this site went into meltdown about PL's poor man-management and you'll never motivate players taking that approach.
PC drops them to the U23's and for many it's a masterstroke of good man-management, its the kick up the backside they need
Horses for courses I guess |
I don't think it's as simple as that or that the same people have changed their tune. I can't speak for everyone, but personally it didn't seem that big an issue to me then and it doesn't now. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 15:28 - Jun 24 with 2080 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:01 - Jun 24 by ITFC_96 |
Yeah, no... Putting a player in the U23s is very, very rarely a motivational move. Would struggle to find a single time where dumping players in the U23s when there is still a NEED and space for them in the first team has been anything but a form of punishment and (potentially) to embarrass them. It is absolving himself of blame for the failure at the end of the season. Also reeks of Paul Lambert's style last year with the youngsters not getting their photos taken and being sent home as some form of "motivation". It is bad and reactionary man management, I'm sorry. There is no other way around it. [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 14:02]
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I expect you know better than Alan Lee then - someone who's been a professional footballer and has known Cook for years.
But no, I'm sure you know best. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 15:32 - Jun 24 with 2048 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:05 - Jun 24 by clive_baker |
I think that's all perfectly fair, reasonable and balanced.
We can all have our own opinions on Cook, how he's going about it, who he's shifted or shifting, who he's signed or signing etc. My view is that the club needed a proper shake up, to awaken it from a gradual demise that had set in over a very long time under Evans. It seems to me that the new owners are serious about getting the 'structure' right off the pitch, qualified people into the right roles, and resetting a culture of acceptance and mediocrity. None of that has come a day too soon for me.
On the field, I don't believe all of our players became sh1t overnight, I genuinely don't think that's true, and the very fact that our few better ones are more likely to earn moves up a division is testament to that. Equally, Cook needed to show he means business, he was probably embarrassed with what his name was associated with last season and won't stand for it.
Ultimately he's going to be judged on results, as all managers are. I wasn't impressed with what I saw for his 16 games last season, when we still very much had something to play for. However it only seems fair to give him the courtesy of a full window and pre season, and letting him stamp his mark on the side. Until then we really have to give him the benefit of the doubt IMO. |
All of our players haven't become sh1t overnight, they've been sh!t and getting worse for years. Look at our slide down the league for your evidence. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 15:34 - Jun 24 with 2041 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:11 - Jun 24 by OriginalMarkyP |
I agree.
I think for a fair proportion of posters 'criticising' Cook, is 'Anti-Cook', and that just isn't the case.
I do find it slightly disheartening that any devation from the party line of 'Cook's great, he knows 100% what he's doing, every decision he makes is correct, we're going to have a team full of superior players by August'...is roundly attacked in some kind or Orwellian show trial format, where the 'names' line up to denounce the comrade who has had the termierity to question ANYTHING with near manical fervour.
Do I like Paul Cook? Yes.
Do I want Paul Cook to succeed as our manager? Yes.
Do I think everything he does is right? No.
Do I dislike some of the things he's done? Yes.
Do I worry about certain things I personally think he has got wrong coming back to bite us? Yes.
Do I think he has got some stuff bang on? Yes.
I really find the slamming down on anything that certain posters disagree with as unpleasant and not really in the spirit of a messageboard.
It gets to the point where people jump on any statement you make and try and frame it to fit their portrayal of you as a 'Bed Wetter', 'Panicer', 'Budgie', 'Enemy of the State'.
So I totally get where you're coming from. |
Classic TWTD exaggeration tactic. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 15:35 - Jun 24 with 2041 views | Butterbing |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:01 - Jun 24 by ITFC_96 |
Yeah, no... Putting a player in the U23s is very, very rarely a motivational move. Would struggle to find a single time where dumping players in the U23s when there is still a NEED and space for them in the first team has been anything but a form of punishment and (potentially) to embarrass them. It is absolving himself of blame for the failure at the end of the season. Also reeks of Paul Lambert's style last year with the youngsters not getting their photos taken and being sent home as some form of "motivation". It is bad and reactionary man management, I'm sorry. There is no other way around it. [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 14:02]
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There are lots of other ways around it. For example one would be: they are not training with the 1st team as they are not likely to be playing in the 1st team.
But, go ahead and make some assumptions and discount any other possibility. |  | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 15:39 - Jun 24 with 2019 views | Coco |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:02 - Jun 24 by Vic |
It does seem that because Joe takes a middle ground position that it’s become open season for a group of posters to pile in on him. The guy has more links into the club than most do (and from what I can see most of those piling in on him have NO inside contacts) and yet his comments and opinions are dismissed by this group.
I remember when Cook first started to make some serious negative comments about some of the team, and then it came out the way he had spoken to the players I didn’t believe it. Joe stood by his story and has since been proven correct so I’ve had to accept that it’s happened.
Do I think it’s great man management? No I don’t! I think it’s really poor. What I still don’t know, and I don’t think any of us know is how he said it and what his intent was. Alan Lee reckons it’s a bit of motivation - I hope he’s right. But it’s still not a tactic I’d personally used - it’s too open to being misunderstood.
But do I think Cook is the right man for the job? Yes I do and I do think he, MA and the other guys will get things sorted. So I’m not anti Cook, any more than Joe is. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with the way he’s gone about his business though.
Anyway, what I really want to say is that I’m finding the criticism of Joe, a long term, well respected poster really tiresome. If he dropped off for a while I wouldn’t be surprised - sadly it will just leave this place less balanced and ever more dominated by the ill informed.
I can’t help but wonder if Phil still enjoys the board he created! [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 14:19]
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Simply not true and I don't know why Joe gets some sort of special celebrity treatment on here. If I post nonsense (and I regularly do), I get treated like satan on here by the TWTD mafioso.
I apologise if Joe thinks I have been overly sniping at him recently but I just think a lot of his opinions of late have been particularly pointed.
Cook HAS to make huge changes and with that he HAS to upset some people. Some of those people have their feet well and truly under the table, with big fluffy slippers and a cuban cigars! Using their voice as fact that Cook is not doing the right things is a little disingenuous really isn't it? My six year old told me she hated her teacher once because the teacher told her off. Somebody needed to be the 'bad guy' and why shouldn't it be Cook? |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 16:08 - Jun 24 with 1898 views | Hullblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 15:39 - Jun 24 by Coco |
Simply not true and I don't know why Joe gets some sort of special celebrity treatment on here. If I post nonsense (and I regularly do), I get treated like satan on here by the TWTD mafioso.
I apologise if Joe thinks I have been overly sniping at him recently but I just think a lot of his opinions of late have been particularly pointed.
Cook HAS to make huge changes and with that he HAS to upset some people. Some of those people have their feet well and truly under the table, with big fluffy slippers and a cuban cigars! Using their voice as fact that Cook is not doing the right things is a little disingenuous really isn't it? My six year old told me she hated her teacher once because the teacher told her off. Somebody needed to be the 'bad guy' and why shouldn't it be Cook? |
If anything Joe seems to get reverse 'celebrity treatment' at the moment.
He offers his opinion and then one or two people seem to want to make it personal - with this thread being a prime example. I'm sure Joe doesn't mind people disagreeing with his opinion but a number of people are framing it in a certain way now.
Joe said "If it is the case he stays I imagine it will be all down to Dyer who likes him". Imagine being the operative word there - he's giving his opinion based on what he's heard.
He gets 10 down votes (I realise that's not the end of the world) and at least a couple of people accusing him of having an agenda. When actually, if you listen to Joe on BM or anything else, he's pretty balanced and even optimistic about PC.
Without disappearing too far up Joe's a***, he's the main reason I listen to BM and I look out for his posts on here more than anyone else's. Would be a shame if he was driven away by this anti-PC narrative people have made up for themselves. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 16:11 - Jun 24 with 1873 views | Mullet |
Absolute shambles of an OP this and the ensuing thread too. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 16:15 - Jun 24 with 1834 views | Butterbing |
| So itfcjoe... on 16:08 - Jun 24 by Hullblue |
If anything Joe seems to get reverse 'celebrity treatment' at the moment.
He offers his opinion and then one or two people seem to want to make it personal - with this thread being a prime example. I'm sure Joe doesn't mind people disagreeing with his opinion but a number of people are framing it in a certain way now.
Joe said "If it is the case he stays I imagine it will be all down to Dyer who likes him". Imagine being the operative word there - he's giving his opinion based on what he's heard.
He gets 10 down votes (I realise that's not the end of the world) and at least a couple of people accusing him of having an agenda. When actually, if you listen to Joe on BM or anything else, he's pretty balanced and even optimistic about PC.
Without disappearing too far up Joe's a***, he's the main reason I listen to BM and I look out for his posts on here more than anyone else's. Would be a shame if he was driven away by this anti-PC narrative people have made up for themselves. |
To be fair his name is in the thread title so it would be hard to not make it personal.
However, I can't see much in this thread that is anything but discussion and opinion. Apologies if I missed any personal insults. | | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 16:15 - Jun 24 with 1825 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| So itfcjoe... on 16:11 - Jun 24 by Mullet |
Absolute shambles of an OP this and the ensuing thread too. |
Sorry Dad. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 16:31 - Jun 24 with 1730 views | Hullblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 16:15 - Jun 24 by Butterbing |
To be fair his name is in the thread title so it would be hard to not make it personal.
However, I can't see much in this thread that is anything but discussion and opinion. Apologies if I missed any personal insults. |
Not insults but just unfair digs, imo. And not just on this thread either.
It all just gets in the way of actual debate. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 16:31 - Jun 24 with 1731 views | DinDjarin |
| So itfcjoe... on 14:02 - Jun 24 by Vic |
It does seem that because Joe takes a middle ground position that it’s become open season for a group of posters to pile in on him. The guy has more links into the club than most do (and from what I can see most of those piling in on him have NO inside contacts) and yet his comments and opinions are dismissed by this group.
I remember when Cook first started to make some serious negative comments about some of the team, and then it came out the way he had spoken to the players I didn’t believe it. Joe stood by his story and has since been proven correct so I’ve had to accept that it’s happened.
Do I think it’s great man management? No I don’t! I think it’s really poor. What I still don’t know, and I don’t think any of us know is how he said it and what his intent was. Alan Lee reckons it’s a bit of motivation - I hope he’s right. But it’s still not a tactic I’d personally used - it’s too open to being misunderstood.
But do I think Cook is the right man for the job? Yes I do and I do think he, MA and the other guys will get things sorted. So I’m not anti Cook, any more than Joe is. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with the way he’s gone about his business though.
Anyway, what I really want to say is that I’m finding the criticism of Joe, a long term, well respected poster really tiresome. If he dropped off for a while I wouldn’t be surprised - sadly it will just leave this place less balanced and ever more dominated by the ill informed.
I can’t help but wonder if Phil still enjoys the board he created! [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 14:19]
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I have a friend well embedded into the club and has been for a lot of years. He knows all the players and socializes with some of them on a fairly regular basis. Well he did as most are gone or soon to be.
Some of the things he speaks about regarding players makes my toes curl so do not believe everything you read and hear.
Out of respect to him I never post about it but trust me when I say this group of players we are better off without. |  | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 16:33 - Jun 24 with 1704 views | footers |
| So itfcjoe... on 16:11 - Jun 24 by Mullet |
Absolute shambles of an OP this and the ensuing thread too. |
Pretty funny though. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 16:38 - Jun 24 with 1672 views | N2_Blue |
| So itfcjoe... on 16:31 - Jun 24 by DinDjarin |
I have a friend well embedded into the club and has been for a lot of years. He knows all the players and socializes with some of them on a fairly regular basis. Well he did as most are gone or soon to be.
Some of the things he speaks about regarding players makes my toes curl so do not believe everything you read and hear.
Out of respect to him I never post about it but trust me when I say this group of players we are better off without. |
Indeed.
I think it's telling how crap we've been recently under 3 different managers.
And very telling how a manager who has had significant success at this level has wanted to get rid of so many players.
Many fans thought it was an exaggeration and didn't believe the talk of changing a whole squad...but now realise its happening. The only reason this is happening is down to the players themselves....poor performance, not as good as they thought they were, inability to take on different tactics and the key factor... a shocking attitude to personal fitness and the ambition to work hard. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 16:47 - Jun 24 with 1605 views | DinDjarin |
| So itfcjoe... on 16:38 - Jun 24 by N2_Blue |
Indeed.
I think it's telling how crap we've been recently under 3 different managers.
And very telling how a manager who has had significant success at this level has wanted to get rid of so many players.
Many fans thought it was an exaggeration and didn't believe the talk of changing a whole squad...but now realise its happening. The only reason this is happening is down to the players themselves....poor performance, not as good as they thought they were, inability to take on different tactics and the key factor... a shocking attitude to personal fitness and the ambition to work hard. |
He absolutely loves Nsiala and says he is the nicest most humble person you would ever wish to meet so there are some good eggs in there just a lot of rotten ones too who think they are billy big bollo*ks.
3 successive managers have failed with them and Cook has now called them out and good job too. | | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:13 - Jun 24 with 1515 views | clive_baker |
| So itfcjoe... on 15:32 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
All of our players haven't become sh1t overnight, they've been sh!t and getting worse for years. Look at our slide down the league for your evidence. |
Yet Downes & Dozzell will likely be playing in the Championship next season?
I don't think you'll find many people losing any sleep over Hawkins, Kenlock and Wilson moving on, we ended last season with a bloated squad, and a huge number of average-at-best players. I'm more than happy to see the back of them.
I just felt like we could be more nuanced than 'they can all go'. There were only a handful I would've liked to see given a shot in a better, more professional, progressive, driven culture, with a view to supplementing them with new signings. The aforementioned, KVY, Bishop, Dobra, the ones that have shown they've got something about them and IMO a higher ceiling. We'll be lucky to be left with 1 or 2 of them, and I think we might look back with some regret at losing the baby with the bathwater.
Completely agree with regards to the majority though. Chambers, Skuse, Huws, Sears, Judge. Absolutely time for a fresh start regards those lads. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 17:17 - Jun 24 with 1489 views | Coco |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:13 - Jun 24 by clive_baker |
Yet Downes & Dozzell will likely be playing in the Championship next season?
I don't think you'll find many people losing any sleep over Hawkins, Kenlock and Wilson moving on, we ended last season with a bloated squad, and a huge number of average-at-best players. I'm more than happy to see the back of them.
I just felt like we could be more nuanced than 'they can all go'. There were only a handful I would've liked to see given a shot in a better, more professional, progressive, driven culture, with a view to supplementing them with new signings. The aforementioned, KVY, Bishop, Dobra, the ones that have shown they've got something about them and IMO a higher ceiling. We'll be lucky to be left with 1 or 2 of them, and I think we might look back with some regret at losing the baby with the bathwater.
Completely agree with regards to the majority though. Chambers, Skuse, Huws, Sears, Judge. Absolutely time for a fresh start regards those lads. |
Club had no choice in Dozzell sale as it was written into his contract that he wanted out at a modest fee. Downes has mad it public that he wants out so prob best if he moves on. Two sides to every story. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 17:32 - Jun 24 with 1421 views | pointofblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 16:38 - Jun 24 by N2_Blue |
Indeed.
I think it's telling how crap we've been recently under 3 different managers.
And very telling how a manager who has had significant success at this level has wanted to get rid of so many players.
Many fans thought it was an exaggeration and didn't believe the talk of changing a whole squad...but now realise its happening. The only reason this is happening is down to the players themselves....poor performance, not as good as they thought they were, inability to take on different tactics and the key factor... a shocking attitude to personal fitness and the ambition to work hard. |
And this goes against the grain of the black and white nature of debate that so many posters are supposedly trying to avoid. It’s the same old approach which has been taken since Cook started to struggle - he is the messiah, the players need to be ditched. There has been little balance, little nuance, very little acceptance that Cook perhaps could have done things differently/better himself at the end of the season.
Everyone from Evans down should take some responsibility for the mess of last season, but it seems that some get all the criticism and some get away with it completely.
That’s not to say that Cook in the long term isn’t the right option for this club and he isn’t going to bring us success (and I’m sure he, like us, is desperate for some signings) - just that the black/white, good/bad, light/dark approach means that anyone who dares to raise their head above the parapet and say everyone has some responsibility gets called anti-Cook. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 17:37 - Jun 24 with 1377 views | chrismakin |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:32 - Jun 24 by pointofblue |
And this goes against the grain of the black and white nature of debate that so many posters are supposedly trying to avoid. It’s the same old approach which has been taken since Cook started to struggle - he is the messiah, the players need to be ditched. There has been little balance, little nuance, very little acceptance that Cook perhaps could have done things differently/better himself at the end of the season.
Everyone from Evans down should take some responsibility for the mess of last season, but it seems that some get all the criticism and some get away with it completely.
That’s not to say that Cook in the long term isn’t the right option for this club and he isn’t going to bring us success (and I’m sure he, like us, is desperate for some signings) - just that the black/white, good/bad, light/dark approach means that anyone who dares to raise their head above the parapet and say everyone has some responsibility gets called anti-Cook. |
Will someone with those views actually say what else he should have done? that's the problem, we keep seeing he failed, and could have done more... or something different but what?
4 2 3 1, did it, 4 4 2, did it, 3 5 2, did it
nicey nicey, did it
strong honest did it
same players, did it
different players did it
slow, possession play did it
fast high temp, did it
So, yes unsure of what else PC could have done that he didn't that would have changed the course of that end of season.
The only thing that happend which is upto others to decide why... but as soon as we were out of the pay off running, we won some games to end the season.
So yeah, open to hear what he could/should have done, im sure even PC himself would like to know | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 17:44 - Jun 24 with 1363 views | Coco |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:32 - Jun 24 by pointofblue |
And this goes against the grain of the black and white nature of debate that so many posters are supposedly trying to avoid. It’s the same old approach which has been taken since Cook started to struggle - he is the messiah, the players need to be ditched. There has been little balance, little nuance, very little acceptance that Cook perhaps could have done things differently/better himself at the end of the season.
Everyone from Evans down should take some responsibility for the mess of last season, but it seems that some get all the criticism and some get away with it completely.
That’s not to say that Cook in the long term isn’t the right option for this club and he isn’t going to bring us success (and I’m sure he, like us, is desperate for some signings) - just that the black/white, good/bad, light/dark approach means that anyone who dares to raise their head above the parapet and say everyone has some responsibility gets called anti-Cook. |
Not true.
Nobody was blind to the fact that Cook wasn’t doing as well as hoped it was the usual ‘player revolt’ stories that came quicker and harder than ever before that left a sour taste.
“Hearing players not happy with Cook’ etc etc.
Also the nonsense that “Cook needs to try something else” then “Why is Cook trying something else” crap that some were soooo strangely quick to beat him with. Joe was uncharacteristically quick to jump on his back. That’s all. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 17:46 - Jun 24 with 1342 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:32 - Jun 24 by pointofblue |
And this goes against the grain of the black and white nature of debate that so many posters are supposedly trying to avoid. It’s the same old approach which has been taken since Cook started to struggle - he is the messiah, the players need to be ditched. There has been little balance, little nuance, very little acceptance that Cook perhaps could have done things differently/better himself at the end of the season.
Everyone from Evans down should take some responsibility for the mess of last season, but it seems that some get all the criticism and some get away with it completely.
That’s not to say that Cook in the long term isn’t the right option for this club and he isn’t going to bring us success (and I’m sure he, like us, is desperate for some signings) - just that the black/white, good/bad, light/dark approach means that anyone who dares to raise their head above the parapet and say everyone has some responsibility gets called anti-Cook. |
This is just absolute nonsense I'm afraid, and incredibly ironic that you're actually painting things as black and white. There has been loads of balance, nuance, and acceptance that Cook perhaps could have done things differently. There might be one or two at the extremes on either side, but most aren't that. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 17:50 - Jun 24 with 1307 views | DinDjarin |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:13 - Jun 24 by clive_baker |
Yet Downes & Dozzell will likely be playing in the Championship next season?
I don't think you'll find many people losing any sleep over Hawkins, Kenlock and Wilson moving on, we ended last season with a bloated squad, and a huge number of average-at-best players. I'm more than happy to see the back of them.
I just felt like we could be more nuanced than 'they can all go'. There were only a handful I would've liked to see given a shot in a better, more professional, progressive, driven culture, with a view to supplementing them with new signings. The aforementioned, KVY, Bishop, Dobra, the ones that have shown they've got something about them and IMO a higher ceiling. We'll be lucky to be left with 1 or 2 of them, and I think we might look back with some regret at losing the baby with the bathwater.
Completely agree with regards to the majority though. Chambers, Skuse, Huws, Sears, Judge. Absolutely time for a fresh start regards those lads. |
With one of the two you mentioned who may / may not hold down a place in the championship next season it was not ability but attitude that broke the camels back. | | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:55 - Jun 24 with 1281 views | Hullblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:46 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
This is just absolute nonsense I'm afraid, and incredibly ironic that you're actually painting things as black and white. There has been loads of balance, nuance, and acceptance that Cook perhaps could have done things differently. There might be one or two at the extremes on either side, but most aren't that. |
You're standing up for the nuance on the board by calling their post nonsense?
...And you think their post was ironic? | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 17:57 - Jun 24 with 1264 views | jeera |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:55 - Jun 24 by Hullblue |
You're standing up for the nuance on the board by calling their post nonsense?
...And you think their post was ironic? |
Standards have certainly slipped on here when decent posters like Pointers are also being spoken down to.
Not good. |  |
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