| So itfcjoe... 23:54 - Jun 23 with 23786 views | OriginalMarkyP |
What did PC say to Dobra that's so bad that he will definitely leave?
Dobra did actually say he wanted to come back and fight for a first team place. I'm assuming he said that after PC said whatever it was to him. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 18:10 - Jun 24 with 2624 views | Freddiesearsismagic |
| So itfcjoe... on 12:43 - Jun 24 by itfcjoe |
Literally everything I say in here is taken the wrong way - it’s an utter waste of my time.
Adios for now |
Calm down Beyoncé |  | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 18:19 - Jun 24 with 2573 views | pointofblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:46 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
This is just absolute nonsense I'm afraid, and incredibly ironic that you're actually painting things as black and white. There has been loads of balance, nuance, and acceptance that Cook perhaps could have done things differently. There might be one or two at the extremes on either side, but most aren't that. |
Except I was replying to a post that was specifically calling out the players. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 18:28 - Jun 24 with 2506 views | N2_Blue |
| So itfcjoe... on 18:19 - Jun 24 by pointofblue |
Except I was replying to a post that was specifically calling out the players. |
I really don't understand why so many fans stick up for the players like they can walk on water.
They have let us, the manager and club down so many times recently. I can forgive results not being what we want or expect if they bust a gut, or if things aren't working players come in and try do extra work, talk to coaches, ask for advice how to get out of a run of poor form. Unfortunately there was absolutely no evidence of this from our most recent squads.
It's the acceptance of poor performance and the willingness to carry on in that comfort zone with no desire to achieve more or improve that i cannot tolerate....and thankfully neither can Paul Cook. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 18:31 - Jun 24 with 2490 views | Ewan_Oozami |
This thread should have been titled "Hey itfcjoe".... |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 19:19 - Jun 24 with 2361 views | pointofblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:37 - Jun 24 by chrismakin |
Will someone with those views actually say what else he should have done? that's the problem, we keep seeing he failed, and could have done more... or something different but what?
4 2 3 1, did it, 4 4 2, did it, 3 5 2, did it
nicey nicey, did it
strong honest did it
same players, did it
different players did it
slow, possession play did it
fast high temp, did it
So, yes unsure of what else PC could have done that he didn't that would have changed the course of that end of season.
The only thing that happend which is upto others to decide why... but as soon as we were out of the pay off running, we won some games to end the season.
So yeah, open to hear what he could/should have done, im sure even PC himself would like to know |
That is a fair point and it's difficult to answer because everything looks easier in hindsight. Looking back I think Cook would have given time to bed in his ideas even though they didn't work straight away, because the constant chopping and changing just caused more confusion and almost put us back further. But I stress that's all in hindsight and I completely understand why he did that at the time.
Except... it's a manager's job to get a team working. They don't get the benefit of hindsight so they have to make the right choices at the right time. If they don't get adequate results the finger will soon turn on them, that's the nature of the beast. Maybe I'm being unfair on expecting Cook to find the answer sooner, though I think we all - him included - expected him to have an impact. Obviously the reaction of the playing squad had an impact on this, I think it is fair to say a few did not respond to his ideas and approach in a professional manner.
I guess the thing that gets me and possibly concerns me now is Cook cracked. Goodness knows how stressed and pressurised the environment was without the external pressures but I wish he had managed himself better when speaking to the press in particular. Even if he felt he had nothing to lose at that point it was unedifying and uncomfortable - then them and us had seemingly returned but it was a case of management against players. I suppose it's what we ask for some fans - some honesty - but there is a halfway point between every performance being a 'good effort' when it was clearly anything but and a cracked Cook saying he was a demolition man and laying most of the fault at the players door.
And did his reaction cause more tension and upset? Undoubtedly - wouldn't it in any workplace? And until the rebuild has been completed then some of the tensions will remain, hence the radical split between the main squad and the Under 23s. We have six weeks to finish off the clearout and get the majority of targets in - the last thing we want is any poisoned apples in the barrel for the final week of pre-season. And hopefully Cook will be calmer and more diplomatic in both the short and long term. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 19:34 - Jun 24 with 2293 views | pointofblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 18:28 - Jun 24 by N2_Blue |
I really don't understand why so many fans stick up for the players like they can walk on water.
They have let us, the manager and club down so many times recently. I can forgive results not being what we want or expect if they bust a gut, or if things aren't working players come in and try do extra work, talk to coaches, ask for advice how to get out of a run of poor form. Unfortunately there was absolutely no evidence of this from our most recent squads.
It's the acceptance of poor performance and the willingness to carry on in that comfort zone with no desire to achieve more or improve that i cannot tolerate....and thankfully neither can Paul Cook. |
Hurst and Lambert are as much, if not more, to blame for their and the club's demise compared to the players though the over-arching presence of Evans caused horrific problems.
Hurst came in, ripped Mick's sqaud to bits, called out players who had previously been consistent performers for us destroying their confidence, brought in lower quality signings (possibly because Evans wouldn't release funds for higher quality) and left us with a squad that couldn't score and leaked like a sieve. This had nothing to do with a lack of effort and more to do with having a League One - at best - squad trying to hold it's own in the Championship.
But his biggest issue was a lack of structure to support him through the transition. Mick had ran the club from almost top to bottom. He allowed Evans to take his hands off the tiller and basically leave it ticking over as an ongoing concern. When he left, we appointed someone with far less knowledge and experience - it was always asking for problems that he had the first and final call on everything which is something I presume he nhad never done before.
Looking back I'm not sure if Lambert was ever truly invested in the club. He should have been as it was surely his final chance to make something of his managerial career but he seemed to do the bare minimum from the off. Yes, he was great at public relations to start with but we never seemed properly coached with a sense of clear direction or purpose. And that's before going down the route of what was happening in terms of match fitness.
The players no doubt preferred Lambert to Hurst and Cook because the latter two called them out even before they got their feet fully under the table. Those from Mick's era (and who had come through the under 23s) were used to everything being dealt with behind closed doors and a united front being presented to the press. Those who joined post Mick found a club listless and lifeless, with an owner who did not care which was a feeling which permeated down.
I've already repeated more than once that the players have to carry some of the blame for the mess we found (find?) ourselves in but it's not the be all and end all that they alone are at fault. If there hadn't been a takeover, subsequently resulting in an attempt to fix the lack of structure (though I do fear our coaching team is inexperienced and really hope Cook has someone he can trust enough to sound off to and who is able to stand up to him) then I would fear we would just be repeating history all over again, just with perhaps another set of players. Insanity is trying the same thing and expecting a different result. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 19:58 - Jun 24 with 2230 views | Ryorry |
| So itfcjoe... on 19:19 - Jun 24 by pointofblue |
That is a fair point and it's difficult to answer because everything looks easier in hindsight. Looking back I think Cook would have given time to bed in his ideas even though they didn't work straight away, because the constant chopping and changing just caused more confusion and almost put us back further. But I stress that's all in hindsight and I completely understand why he did that at the time.
Except... it's a manager's job to get a team working. They don't get the benefit of hindsight so they have to make the right choices at the right time. If they don't get adequate results the finger will soon turn on them, that's the nature of the beast. Maybe I'm being unfair on expecting Cook to find the answer sooner, though I think we all - him included - expected him to have an impact. Obviously the reaction of the playing squad had an impact on this, I think it is fair to say a few did not respond to his ideas and approach in a professional manner.
I guess the thing that gets me and possibly concerns me now is Cook cracked. Goodness knows how stressed and pressurised the environment was without the external pressures but I wish he had managed himself better when speaking to the press in particular. Even if he felt he had nothing to lose at that point it was unedifying and uncomfortable - then them and us had seemingly returned but it was a case of management against players. I suppose it's what we ask for some fans - some honesty - but there is a halfway point between every performance being a 'good effort' when it was clearly anything but and a cracked Cook saying he was a demolition man and laying most of the fault at the players door.
And did his reaction cause more tension and upset? Undoubtedly - wouldn't it in any workplace? And until the rebuild has been completed then some of the tensions will remain, hence the radical split between the main squad and the Under 23s. We have six weeks to finish off the clearout and get the majority of targets in - the last thing we want is any poisoned apples in the barrel for the final week of pre-season. And hopefully Cook will be calmer and more diplomatic in both the short and long term. |
"Is Cook cracked" ...
Seriously, can't believe someone would write that about our new Manager, who's only been in post a few months & hasn't even had a whole window yet.
In fact I can't believe this thread at all.
My take - none of us know *exactly* what is going on behind the scenes - even half a dozen people in the same room will interpret the same words spoken slightly differently according to their position, point of view, personality etc.
Sorry, but basically it seems to me that the answer is fairly simple - wait till the window's closed & we're a few games into the new season, we'll soon know how things are going.
And Joe, please stay, we need the sensible people & moderate voices more than ever on here, & you post interesting stuff from inside the club through a line that we wouldn't otherwise have (though one or two people as well as Phil appear to have additional genuine links). |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 20:10 - Jun 24 with 2183 views | pointofblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 19:58 - Jun 24 by Ryorry |
"Is Cook cracked" ...
Seriously, can't believe someone would write that about our new Manager, who's only been in post a few months & hasn't even had a whole window yet.
In fact I can't believe this thread at all.
My take - none of us know *exactly* what is going on behind the scenes - even half a dozen people in the same room will interpret the same words spoken slightly differently according to their position, point of view, personality etc.
Sorry, but basically it seems to me that the answer is fairly simple - wait till the window's closed & we're a few games into the new season, we'll soon know how things are going.
And Joe, please stay, we need the sensible people & moderate voices more than ever on here, & you post interesting stuff from inside the club through a line that we wouldn't otherwise have (though one or two people as well as Phil appear to have additional genuine links). |
I was referring to the way he interacted with the press and how he responded to questions put to him, particularly after the poor start where it almost felt like he wrote off the season and was desperate for the chance to rebuild the squad, despite our continuing proxmity to the play offs. How many times did he say we were not in a play off fight when, mathematically, we very much were? He seemed to be delighted to be known as the demolition man.
And saying all this doesn't mean I feel he deserves no support heading into the new season. Just he made errors at the tail end of last season, something which many people seem very defensive over when it's pointed out.
Agree with you completely regarding Joe. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 20:17 - Jun 24 with 2159 views | Churchman |
| So itfcjoe... on 19:34 - Jun 24 by pointofblue |
Hurst and Lambert are as much, if not more, to blame for their and the club's demise compared to the players though the over-arching presence of Evans caused horrific problems.
Hurst came in, ripped Mick's sqaud to bits, called out players who had previously been consistent performers for us destroying their confidence, brought in lower quality signings (possibly because Evans wouldn't release funds for higher quality) and left us with a squad that couldn't score and leaked like a sieve. This had nothing to do with a lack of effort and more to do with having a League One - at best - squad trying to hold it's own in the Championship.
But his biggest issue was a lack of structure to support him through the transition. Mick had ran the club from almost top to bottom. He allowed Evans to take his hands off the tiller and basically leave it ticking over as an ongoing concern. When he left, we appointed someone with far less knowledge and experience - it was always asking for problems that he had the first and final call on everything which is something I presume he nhad never done before.
Looking back I'm not sure if Lambert was ever truly invested in the club. He should have been as it was surely his final chance to make something of his managerial career but he seemed to do the bare minimum from the off. Yes, he was great at public relations to start with but we never seemed properly coached with a sense of clear direction or purpose. And that's before going down the route of what was happening in terms of match fitness.
The players no doubt preferred Lambert to Hurst and Cook because the latter two called them out even before they got their feet fully under the table. Those from Mick's era (and who had come through the under 23s) were used to everything being dealt with behind closed doors and a united front being presented to the press. Those who joined post Mick found a club listless and lifeless, with an owner who did not care which was a feeling which permeated down.
I've already repeated more than once that the players have to carry some of the blame for the mess we found (find?) ourselves in but it's not the be all and end all that they alone are at fault. If there hadn't been a takeover, subsequently resulting in an attempt to fix the lack of structure (though I do fear our coaching team is inexperienced and really hope Cook has someone he can trust enough to sound off to and who is able to stand up to him) then I would fear we would just be repeating history all over again, just with perhaps another set of players. Insanity is trying the same thing and expecting a different result. |
‘Repeating history all over again’. To suggest that is to suggest the club is in the same place it was when Hurst then Lambert walked through the door. It is to suggest Cook has the same track record as Lambert and Hurst. Hurst had an experienced coach and somebody to turn to in Doig. That went well.
Mick did not run the club top to bottom, unless you are calling Dyer a liar. Mick was interested in the first team only according to KD. You are presenting MM as some sort of Bobby Robson style manager. He was a long way from that and the club had plenty wrong with it during MMs time and before (see McGoldrick’s comments and others). That was down to our saviour Marcus.
‘Players have to carry some of the blame’. Err, yeah. I should say so. Lambert and Hurst too. Cook should have done better and has admitted that, but he inherited the mother of all messes including a dysfunctional, disinterested squad. Accountability for the club’s destruction lies with Evans.
Are we repeating history? No. The situation is totally different and so are the people trying to revive the club. [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 21:21]
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| So itfcjoe... on 20:18 - Jun 24 with 2157 views | clive_baker |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:17 - Jun 24 by Coco |
Club had no choice in Dozzell sale as it was written into his contract that he wanted out at a modest fee. Downes has mad it public that he wants out so prob best if he moves on. Two sides to every story. |
Dozzell yes, QPR met a clause so to some extent that’s unavoidable.
Downes hasn’t made it public that he wishes to leave. He handed a transfer request in a long time ago, but he was told at the end of the season he isn’t wanted. Bishop was told the same. Dobra let’s see what happens with him, but I’m not hopeful he’ll get a chance. If Cook doesn’t rate them that’s obviously his prerogative. All I’m saying is personally I think there’s a handful I would’ve put an arm around and try and get them going next season.
I’m still hopeful Cook will get it right, and I would wager we’ll see a few exciting players coming in the door over the next few weeks. I just hope we don’t look back on some of these departures in a couple of years and wonder what might have been if we gave them more of a chance under the new regime. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 20:29 - Jun 24 with 2093 views | pointofblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 20:17 - Jun 24 by Churchman |
‘Repeating history all over again’. To suggest that is to suggest the club is in the same place it was when Hurst then Lambert walked through the door. It is to suggest Cook has the same track record as Lambert and Hurst. Hurst had an experienced coach and somebody to turn to in Doig. That went well.
Mick did not run the club top to bottom, unless you are calling Dyer a liar. Mick was interested in the first team only according to KD. You are presenting MM as some sort of Bobby Robson style manager. He was a long way from that and the club had plenty wrong with it during MMs time and before (see McGoldrick’s comments and others). That was down to our saviour Marcus.
‘Players have to carry some of the blame’. Err, yeah. I should say so. Lambert and Hurst too. Cook should have done better and has admitted that, but he inherited the mother of all messes including a dysfunctional, disinterested squad. Accountability for the club’s destruction lies with Evans.
Are we repeating history? No. The situation is totally different and so are the people trying to revive the club. [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 21:21]
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Just to clarify, when I said repeating history all over again I was referring to if the takeover hadn't taken place - yes, Cook might have tried to rebuild under Evans but I think he would have stumbled into the same issues as Hurst did before; the quality would not have been there.
It felt like Mick had a lot of say in approach to fitness and transfers, is that fair? He had the final decision on who was coming in and what approach to take in training and the physio room. I'm not saying that Mick was at fault in the slightest but we went from someone who was used to that much say plus playing the Championship to someone who lacked experience at both.
As I keep repeating, everyone needs to take a portion of blame for the mess of last season but I agree, the rot started at the top and that is Evans. It does grate slightly that he'll profit from any future success we have under Gamechanger but I suppose he at least kept us going, even if we slowly drowned under him. [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 20:30]
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| So itfcjoe... on 20:35 - Jun 24 with 2070 views | chicoazul |
Congratulations to you knobs for running off a good knowledgeable long time poster and a true blue. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 21:02 - Jun 24 with 1958 views | Coco |
| So itfcjoe... on 20:35 - Jun 24 by chicoazul |
Congratulations to you knobs for running off a good knowledgeable long time poster and a true blue. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 21:05 - Jun 24 with 1936 views | footers |
| So itfcjoe... on 20:35 - Jun 24 by chicoazul |
Congratulations to you knobs for running off a good knowledgeable long time poster and a true blue. |
PJH is truly missed. |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 21:06 - Jun 24 with 1910 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:55 - Jun 24 by Hullblue |
You're standing up for the nuance on the board by calling their post nonsense?
...And you think their post was ironic? |
Well yes. If someone's saying there's been no nuance when there has, then it's nonsense. Not sure what bit you're not getting. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 21:10 - Jun 24 with 1895 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| So itfcjoe... on 17:57 - Jun 24 by jeera |
Standards have certainly slipped on here when decent posters like Pointers are also being spoken down to.
Not good. |
Oh I'm sorry, am I not allowed to disagree with certain posters because they have some sort of 'board legend' status? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| So itfcjoe... on 21:17 - Jun 24 with 1840 views | pointofblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 21:06 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Well yes. If someone's saying there's been no nuance when there has, then it's nonsense. Not sure what bit you're not getting. |
That's why we've had a few (hundred) pages of who's to blame? If the majority thought everyone who was at the club at the end of the season (plus some who had left) played a part in the mess I doubt that would be the case. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 21:30 - Jun 24 with 1779 views | SomethingBlue |
A lot of people tying themselves in knots on this thread, and clearly people who don't pick their targets very well at that. Disappointing. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 22:25 - Jun 24 with 1593 views | DinDjarin |
People getting upset over handbags on a public forum.
Precious. |  | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 23:36 - Jun 24 with 1475 views | Coco |
| So itfcjoe... on 21:30 - Jun 24 by SomethingBlue |
A lot of people tying themselves in knots on this thread, and clearly people who don't pick their targets very well at that. Disappointing. |
Such a bizarre place at times. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 23:40 - Jun 24 with 1460 views | pointofblue |
| So itfcjoe... on 21:30 - Jun 24 by SomethingBlue |
A lot of people tying themselves in knots on this thread, and clearly people who don't pick their targets very well at that. Disappointing. |
Think it's partly down to being in limbo. Get some signings through the door, which will surely happen soon, and it'll be a case of looking forward. Maybe people thought we'd be further forward than we are and therefore old wounds are being re-opened out of annoyance from that? | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 23:44 - Jun 24 with 1428 views | jeera |
| So itfcjoe... on 21:10 - Jun 24 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Oh I'm sorry, am I not allowed to disagree with certain posters because they have some sort of 'board legend' status? |
There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and addressing them like sh1t.
I don't know about PointofBlue's 'status' but he always seems like a nice enough guy.
Dismissing people's posts as "absolute nonsense" and the like isn't exactly becoming is it? |  |
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| So itfcjoe... on 00:15 - Jun 25 with 1361 views | Churchman |
| So itfcjoe... on 20:29 - Jun 24 by pointofblue |
Just to clarify, when I said repeating history all over again I was referring to if the takeover hadn't taken place - yes, Cook might have tried to rebuild under Evans but I think he would have stumbled into the same issues as Hurst did before; the quality would not have been there.
It felt like Mick had a lot of say in approach to fitness and transfers, is that fair? He had the final decision on who was coming in and what approach to take in training and the physio room. I'm not saying that Mick was at fault in the slightest but we went from someone who was used to that much say plus playing the Championship to someone who lacked experience at both.
As I keep repeating, everyone needs to take a portion of blame for the mess of last season but I agree, the rot started at the top and that is Evans. It does grate slightly that he'll profit from any future success we have under Gamechanger but I suppose he at least kept us going, even if we slowly drowned under him. [Post edited 24 Jun 2021 20:30]
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Fair enough. Yes, I agree that had Cook tried to do this under Evans it most certainly would have been Groundhog Day. The only hope would have been Cook’s track record of doing this sort of thing with no money. I wouldn’t fancy his chances with Fagin Evans holding the purse.
As it is, I hope he has an eye for a player and Ashton is as competent as he sounds and not the idiot Bristol City fans paint him as. It certainly feels different to the past decade(s) but the proof will be in how things look in August.
Yes, in fitness and transfers Mick was very astute. He took punts and had his failures as all managers do, but he pulled a good few rabbits out of the hat and had a good spirit going for a period too. He was good at that and boy did it show when Hurst then Lambert waltzed in. Devoid of any idea.
It grates with me that Evans stands to gain from any future success too. I wish he and his stupid logos about the ground gone. The latter annoyed me when I drove passed the other day. | | | |
| So itfcjoe... on 00:17 - Jun 25 with 1357 views | OriginalMarkyP |
| So itfcjoe... on 23:44 - Jun 24 by jeera |
There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and addressing them like sh1t.
I don't know about PointofBlue's 'status' but he always seems like a nice enough guy.
Dismissing people's posts as "absolute nonsense" and the like isn't exactly becoming is it? |
l agree with you.
But your response to my original post was a bit similar.
Which is fine.
Funny that this whole unwieldy thread spawned from me asking a simple question to a poster who has always been totally pleasant and reasonable to me, and i to him i believe. A question with nothing on it, except wanting to understand something he'd mentioned a couple of times. And a question he was more than happy to answer quite civily.
And yet, a load of other people jump on board and turn it into some massive pile on.
Odd. And a little bit unpleasant. No wonder Joe, who i find very clear-headed and even-handed got exasperated. | |
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| So itfcjoe... on 00:23 - Jun 25 with 1344 views | jeera |
| So itfcjoe... on 00:17 - Jun 25 by OriginalMarkyP |
l agree with you.
But your response to my original post was a bit similar.
Which is fine.
Funny that this whole unwieldy thread spawned from me asking a simple question to a poster who has always been totally pleasant and reasonable to me, and i to him i believe. A question with nothing on it, except wanting to understand something he'd mentioned a couple of times. And a question he was more than happy to answer quite civily.
And yet, a load of other people jump on board and turn it into some massive pile on.
Odd. And a little bit unpleasant. No wonder Joe, who i find very clear-headed and even-handed got exasperated. |
I said the nice people!
Your thread didn't come across as harmless but more like calling someone out.
It cannot have escaped your attention that the first few responses were equal to mine in that they weren't keen on your approach.
My response to you was in that context which is a far cry from Pointers just chatting away offering his pov on a matter only to be told he's talking nonsense. I hate that type of condescension* when someone is posting normally.
That aside, I'm too tired to argue and am going to bed.
*That's when you talk down to people. | |
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