| "Illegal immigrants" 09:10 - Jul 21 with 18594 views | noggin |
It really pisses me off that so many news sources label these human beings as criminals. The criminals are the people smugglers and the politicians. Is it any wonder the public have such a xenophobic attitude to these poor people. [Post edited 21 Jul 2021 9:14]
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:13 - Jul 21 with 1209 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:08 - Jul 21 by StokieBlue |
Just going to reply to a paragraph in this:
"The problem I have though is when I see news reports of a dinghy entering Kent they all seem to be full of strapping young men - and with the cost of paying for the crossing they can't be that skint."
They have likely spent every penny they have to get on that boat, possibly every penny their family has in a desperate attempt to get to the UK. To make out they have a depth of resources or some money to live the life when they get here really isn't the reality of the situation.
SB |
"Illegal immigrants" by Charlie_pl_baxter 21 Jul 2021 22:39I used to worry for the Red Cross so I know a bit about this. Many of them will have paid traffickers everything they own to make the journey. Even when they have more the traffickers often find ways to justify taking whatever they have left.
Many others make the crossing on credit and end up effectively enslaved to the traffickers while they work off their debt.
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:15 - Jul 21 with 1198 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:11 - Jul 21 by Lord_Lucan |
That's a massive twist
Quite insulting to be honest. |
It really isn't. He has quoted the part he is replying to and it reads the same way to me.
EDIT: "They can't be that skint."
They were your words. [Post edited 21 Jul 2021 23:16]
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:17 - Jul 21 with 1182 views | vapour_trail |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:08 - Jul 21 by StokieBlue |
Just going to reply to a paragraph in this:
"The problem I have though is when I see news reports of a dinghy entering Kent they all seem to be full of strapping young men - and with the cost of paying for the crossing they can't be that skint."
They have likely spent every penny they have to get on that boat, possibly every penny their family has in a desperate attempt to get to the UK. To make out they have a depth of resources or some money to live the life when they get here really isn't the reality of the situation.
SB |
That’s assumptions actually.
People paying for passage have resources to pay for passage. That’s pretty clear. That may be the end of their resources or it may not.
It’s pretty clear also, that there’s people without the resources to fund such a desperate passage. |  |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:19 - Jul 21 with 1170 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:17 - Jul 21 by vapour_trail |
That’s assumptions actually.
People paying for passage have resources to pay for passage. That’s pretty clear. That may be the end of their resources or it may not.
It’s pretty clear also, that there’s people without the resources to fund such a desperate passage. |
"Illegal immigrants" by Charlie_pl_baxter 21 Jul 2021 22:39I used to worry for the Red Cross so I know a bit about this. Many of them will have paid traffickers everything they own to make the journey. Even when they have more the traffickers often find ways to justify taking whatever they have left.
Many others make the crossing on credit and end up effectively enslaved to the traffickers while they work off their debt.
EDIT: I think the assumptions are from those who are claiming that these people have resources beyond what they have spent coming here. [Post edited 21 Jul 2021 23:21]
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:23 - Jul 21 with 1153 views | StokieBlue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:11 - Jul 21 by Lord_Lucan |
That's a massive twist
Quite insulting to be honest. |
The majority of these people won't have much if any money. We literally have someone who worked for the red cross on this thread who knows about this subject and has said the majority will have spent nearly all their money to get here. I accept this is an "appeal to authority" but I don't have another source to hand at the moment.
You literally said "they can't be that skint".
Those are your words, I've not twisted anything.
I'm quite insulted you are accusing me of twisting your words.
SB [Post edited 21 Jul 2021 23:35]
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:24 - Jul 21 with 1143 views | StokieBlue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:17 - Jul 21 by vapour_trail |
That’s assumptions actually.
People paying for passage have resources to pay for passage. That’s pretty clear. That may be the end of their resources or it may not.
It’s pretty clear also, that there’s people without the resources to fund such a desperate passage. |
We have someone who works in the field literally saying in this thread that the majority will have spent all they have to get here.
Certainly agree on the second paragraph.
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:27 - Jul 21 with 1125 views | vapour_trail |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:24 - Jul 21 by StokieBlue |
We have someone who works in the field literally saying in this thread that the majority will have spent all they have to get here.
Certainly agree on the second paragraph.
SB |
That’s great to see. It’s not an evidence base. | |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:29 - Jul 21 with 1114 views | StokieBlue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:27 - Jul 21 by vapour_trail |
That’s great to see. It’s not an evidence base. |
It's anecdotal of course, it is however more evidence than has been presented to show "they can't be that skint".
I just find the phrasing pretty distasteful to be honest, I don't have a source to give precise numbers at the moment though so I'll leave it there.
SB [Post edited 21 Jul 2021 23:35]
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:56 - Jul 21 with 1068 views | Lord_Lucan |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:23 - Jul 21 by StokieBlue |
The majority of these people won't have much if any money. We literally have someone who worked for the red cross on this thread who knows about this subject and has said the majority will have spent nearly all their money to get here. I accept this is an "appeal to authority" but I don't have another source to hand at the moment.
You literally said "they can't be that skint".
Those are your words, I've not twisted anything.
I'm quite insulted you are accusing me of twisting your words.
SB [Post edited 21 Jul 2021 23:35]
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What you have done is twisted an obvious throw away comment, well done.
I stick by what I think, you can think what you want. I have no control over your brain and I'm not into mind control so all is good I suppose.
The fact that you condone people coming over in boats with a fair risk of drowning is a mystery to me, there should be a big net preventing these illegal mafia funded sailings in my opinion - a French fishing net! But they won't do that as they are just as happy to see the back of them as Farage and his ilk are sad to see them here.
These people are safe in France, there is absolutely no reason to risk their life coming here. If they are young men then yes, it's their choice if they want to risk it but why anyway?. If they are trying to bring in their wifes and children then they are idiots, they are playing with their families lives to go from one free country to another. They are putting their wives and or kids lives in danger for what? I'm asking seriously, why are they doing this? You think this is ok? Responsible?
There is little difference in that than putting my family in a dhingy to go to France, it is incomprehensible. |  |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 00:00 - Jul 22 with 1059 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:56 - Jul 21 by Lord_Lucan |
What you have done is twisted an obvious throw away comment, well done.
I stick by what I think, you can think what you want. I have no control over your brain and I'm not into mind control so all is good I suppose.
The fact that you condone people coming over in boats with a fair risk of drowning is a mystery to me, there should be a big net preventing these illegal mafia funded sailings in my opinion - a French fishing net! But they won't do that as they are just as happy to see the back of them as Farage and his ilk are sad to see them here.
These people are safe in France, there is absolutely no reason to risk their life coming here. If they are young men then yes, it's their choice if they want to risk it but why anyway?. If they are trying to bring in their wifes and children then they are idiots, they are playing with their families lives to go from one free country to another. They are putting their wives and or kids lives in danger for what? I'm asking seriously, why are they doing this? You think this is ok? Responsible?
There is little difference in that than putting my family in a dhingy to go to France, it is incomprehensible. |
To which the question should be what information are you missing?
If it is so incomprehensible, what key information are you not in possession of?
Yes, there should be far better solutions but the political capital is in demonising them and trying to shift the blame for them. | |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 00:06 - Jul 22 with 1047 views | Lord_Lucan |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 00:00 - Jul 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
To which the question should be what information are you missing?
If it is so incomprehensible, what key information are you not in possession of?
Yes, there should be far better solutions but the political capital is in demonising them and trying to shift the blame for them. |
No, it's insane.
Let's just say you have escaped Scotland with your family from the possibility of torture and murder.
The good news is that you are now in England and is everything is hunky dory
Ask the Ref, do you
A/ Stick in England
B/ Quite literally risk your families life to get to France? | |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 00:07 - Jul 22 with 1043 views | StokieBlue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 23:56 - Jul 21 by Lord_Lucan |
What you have done is twisted an obvious throw away comment, well done.
I stick by what I think, you can think what you want. I have no control over your brain and I'm not into mind control so all is good I suppose.
The fact that you condone people coming over in boats with a fair risk of drowning is a mystery to me, there should be a big net preventing these illegal mafia funded sailings in my opinion - a French fishing net! But they won't do that as they are just as happy to see the back of them as Farage and his ilk are sad to see them here.
These people are safe in France, there is absolutely no reason to risk their life coming here. If they are young men then yes, it's their choice if they want to risk it but why anyway?. If they are trying to bring in their wifes and children then they are idiots, they are playing with their families lives to go from one free country to another. They are putting their wives and or kids lives in danger for what? I'm asking seriously, why are they doing this? You think this is ok? Responsible?
There is little difference in that than putting my family in a dhingy to go to France, it is incomprehensible. |
"The fact that you condone people coming over in boats with a fair risk of drowning is a mystery to me"
You've literally made this up.
Unbelievable hypocrisy.
SB | |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 00:15 - Jul 22 with 1027 views | Lord_Lucan |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 00:07 - Jul 22 by StokieBlue |
"The fact that you condone people coming over in boats with a fair risk of drowning is a mystery to me"
You've literally made this up.
Unbelievable hypocrisy.
SB |
Ok, you explain it to me.
Why do you think it's either a good idea, or in fact responsible, to leave a safe welcoming country and risk you and your families life to come to another? | |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 04:42 - Jul 22 with 967 views | WeWereZombies |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 00:06 - Jul 22 by Lord_Lucan |
No, it's insane.
Let's just say you have escaped Scotland with your family from the possibility of torture and murder.
The good news is that you are now in England and is everything is hunky dory
Ask the Ref, do you
A/ Stick in England
B/ Quite literally risk your families life to get to France? |
Mary, Queen of Scots fled to England and sought refuge with her cousin Elizabeth the First. Ended up being put in custody for twenty one years and then beheaded. I reckon things would have worked out better for her if she could have got to France...
Sorry, shouldn't make a throwaway comment that could become contentious (there's religion and claims to thrones involved in that one and connected to issues that still rumble on in these islands to this day.)
What I would ask you to consider is the case of Alan Kurdi, the three year old who was washed up on a beach near Bodrum and whose corpse was photographed by a Turkish reporter with the result that the image went viral back in 2015. I never realised until earlier this year that his dad was at the wheel of the inflatable. So was he a people trafficker?
It gets complicated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Alan_Kurdi#Arrests_of_alleged_perpetrator
There was a comment in the thread earlier that the poorest in a society are not the ones to flee because they do not have the resources and my thought at first was 'if you have a working pair of legs you don't need any money to be able to flee' but on reflection I realise that you also need food, shelter and so on. So 'strapping young men' are more likely to have earned a bit before they left and earned some more along the way. They are also more likely to attract the attention of criminal gangs who either think that the young men can do a job for them or are likely to have enough cash in their pockets to get suckered out of it buying a passage on a dodgy boat. And are more likely to have a history of decisions driven by circumstance and desperation that make it easier to sucker the money out of them. |  |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:03 - Jul 22 with 821 views | bluejacko |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 00:15 - Jul 22 by Lord_Lucan |
Ok, you explain it to me.
Why do you think it's either a good idea, or in fact responsible, to leave a safe welcoming country and risk you and your families life to come to another? |
Reading some of these posts there is a clear misunderstanding of what is illegal or what isn’t.
Cross any border or attempt to do so without the proper paperwork is clearly illegal!
So just because your bobbing about in the ditch is neither here nor there.coupled with the fact these people actually entered the EU illegally as well.
The vast majority are young men who when questioned will say they are fleeing from something or other but are quite content to leave their families behind to face whatever they claim they are running from!
It is clearly the case from recent videos on the news that some French patrol boats are escorting these boats into international waters expecting us to pick them up,so much for us actually paying the French to help stop this.
Never mind though to some of us they will still be poor misguided souls that we need to save from their own stupidity! |  | | |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:15 - Jul 22 with 801 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:03 - Jul 22 by bluejacko |
Reading some of these posts there is a clear misunderstanding of what is illegal or what isn’t.
Cross any border or attempt to do so without the proper paperwork is clearly illegal!
So just because your bobbing about in the ditch is neither here nor there.coupled with the fact these people actually entered the EU illegally as well.
The vast majority are young men who when questioned will say they are fleeing from something or other but are quite content to leave their families behind to face whatever they claim they are running from!
It is clearly the case from recent videos on the news that some French patrol boats are escorting these boats into international waters expecting us to pick them up,so much for us actually paying the French to help stop this.
Never mind though to some of us they will still be poor misguided souls that we need to save from their own stupidity! |
Wrong. Asylum seekers can cross a border without paperwork and then claim asylum. | |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:15 - Jul 22 with 799 views | vapour_trail |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:03 - Jul 22 by bluejacko |
Reading some of these posts there is a clear misunderstanding of what is illegal or what isn’t.
Cross any border or attempt to do so without the proper paperwork is clearly illegal!
So just because your bobbing about in the ditch is neither here nor there.coupled with the fact these people actually entered the EU illegally as well.
The vast majority are young men who when questioned will say they are fleeing from something or other but are quite content to leave their families behind to face whatever they claim they are running from!
It is clearly the case from recent videos on the news that some French patrol boats are escorting these boats into international waters expecting us to pick them up,so much for us actually paying the French to help stop this.
Never mind though to some of us they will still be poor misguided souls that we need to save from their own stupidity! |
Imagine ending up like you.
Fcking dreadful state of affairs. | |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:19 - Jul 22 with 782 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 00:06 - Jul 22 by Lord_Lucan |
No, it's insane.
Let's just say you have escaped Scotland with your family from the possibility of torture and murder.
The good news is that you are now in England and is everything is hunky dory
Ask the Ref, do you
A/ Stick in England
B/ Quite literally risk your families life to get to France? |
This IS the whole point.
Quite clearly they are NOT doing option a. (EDIT: had put b because your reversing the direction of travel argument logic confused me a little there.)
You THINK that is because the UK is so attractive that it is worth the risk for these people to take.
I am telling you that there is likely more to it. Maybe a French refugee camp is not such a good place to live after all? Maybe there is a high threat of deportation from France and low probability of escaping into the ether in France.
I don't know what the motivation is. I asked the former Red Cross worker and they haven't responded. However, I don't think your conclusion is a reasonable assumption to jump to.
Or in other words, use your own logic. If it is not a wise option to take, why are these people paying a lot of money to take it? [Post edited 22 Jul 2021 18:20]
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:42 - Jul 22 with 753 views | bluejacko |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:15 - Jul 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Wrong. Asylum seekers can cross a border without paperwork and then claim asylum. |
Claim asylum in the first safe country I believe NOT travel across Europe to have a go at the channel! | | | |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:45 - Jul 22 with 746 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:42 - Jul 22 by bluejacko |
Claim asylum in the first safe country I believe NOT travel across Europe to have a go at the channel! |
Ah, OK. It is illegal to claim asylum in this country.
Thanks for educating me. | |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:55 - Jul 22 with 732 views | WeWereZombies |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:42 - Jul 22 by bluejacko |
Claim asylum in the first safe country I believe NOT travel across Europe to have a go at the channel! |
You may get your wish if the Government's 'New Plan for Immigration' is actioned, it is expected to make things easier for criminals who want to practice child slavery in the United Kingdom so it might make sense for asylum seekers to get on a boat from Dover and head over to Calais...
[edit] Sorry, pressed send before adding link
https://www.antislavery.org/new-plan-for-immigration-children-ecpat/ [Post edited 22 Jul 2021 18:56]
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 19:08 - Jul 22 with 708 views | Herbivore |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:42 - Jul 22 by bluejacko |
Claim asylum in the first safe country I believe NOT travel across Europe to have a go at the channel! |
Not actually correct: https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/
And Brexit has, ironically, made it even harder for us to send back asylum seekers who we think should be claiming asylum elsewhere in the EU. |  |
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| "Illegal immigrants" on 19:12 - Jul 22 with 693 views | eireblue |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:19 - Jul 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
This IS the whole point.
Quite clearly they are NOT doing option a. (EDIT: had put b because your reversing the direction of travel argument logic confused me a little there.)
You THINK that is because the UK is so attractive that it is worth the risk for these people to take.
I am telling you that there is likely more to it. Maybe a French refugee camp is not such a good place to live after all? Maybe there is a high threat of deportation from France and low probability of escaping into the ether in France.
I don't know what the motivation is. I asked the former Red Cross worker and they haven't responded. However, I don't think your conclusion is a reasonable assumption to jump to.
Or in other words, use your own logic. If it is not a wise option to take, why are these people paying a lot of money to take it? [Post edited 22 Jul 2021 18:20]
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I think you raise an interesting point.
As an aside the Syrian War, and subsequent war against ISIS, has been going on for about 10 years or so.
A young strapping Syrian lad rocking up in a dingy, may have been someone that experienced nothing but war and refugee camps.
Do some people really think the people arriving are all stupid or insane?
“Yea this place is safe and comfy, the locals do eat a bit too much garlic, but actually we are all stupid and insane and have some disposable income so let’s risk our lives and spend all our money on a dingy trip to the U.K.
The thing to fix is what is driving human beings to give away all their possessions and risk their lives.
An insane thing is too not fix that. A stupid and insane thing to do is think that somehow giving people a prison sentence will dissuade people from taking the risk.
“Guys, look not going to lie, you could die from drowning, do you still want to go, ….okay, by the way when you arrive you may get put into a prison for a few years,….sorry what was that question….yes the prisons do have food, yep and beds, yep roof and everything…woah, slow down” |  | | |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 19:17 - Jul 22 with 685 views | bluejacko |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 19:12 - Jul 22 by eireblue |
I think you raise an interesting point.
As an aside the Syrian War, and subsequent war against ISIS, has been going on for about 10 years or so.
A young strapping Syrian lad rocking up in a dingy, may have been someone that experienced nothing but war and refugee camps.
Do some people really think the people arriving are all stupid or insane?
“Yea this place is safe and comfy, the locals do eat a bit too much garlic, but actually we are all stupid and insane and have some disposable income so let’s risk our lives and spend all our money on a dingy trip to the U.K.
The thing to fix is what is driving human beings to give away all their possessions and risk their lives.
An insane thing is too not fix that. A stupid and insane thing to do is think that somehow giving people a prison sentence will dissuade people from taking the risk.
“Guys, look not going to lie, you could die from drowning, do you still want to go, ….okay, by the way when you arrive you may get put into a prison for a few years,….sorry what was that question….yes the prisons do have food, yep and beds, yep roof and everything…woah, slow down” |
Well in the ROI you really don’t have the problem of a horde of little boats washing up on your shores do you? | | | |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 19:35 - Jul 22 with 654 views | Darth_Koont |
| "Illegal immigrants" on 18:45 - Jul 22 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Ah, OK. It is illegal to claim asylum in this country.
Thanks for educating me. |
Funnily enough, I think that’s exactly the perception the Home Secretary and the government want to create in this country.
And a few on this thread are already there. |  |
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