| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion 21:04 - Oct 4 with 4775 views | reusersfreekicks |
So says Phil, Stuart Watson. And be honest the owners and management expect this too.
We have 2 teams worth of quality players many of whom other clubs in the league would love.
So let's stop spouting nonsense about gelling the season only starting when Morsey arrived, the players not being Cook's preference.
Let's just get real and see the season thus far for what it is - a disaster and a massive disappointment [Post edited 4 Oct 2021 21:05]
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:22 - Oct 5 with 892 views | Herbivore |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:19 - Oct 5 by Chrisd |
We haven't finished the season yet, we are 10 games in and if we finish in the top 6 and then get promoted, then haven't we got what we paid for? I agree it doesn't look good at the moment, but I still want to give PC this month's fixtures to see if he can pull it all together. Sides with smaller budgets are allowed to beat sides that spend more heavily, it happens on a weekly basis in leagues across the globe - look at PSG at the weekend. When I was growing up Manchester United were the big spenders with Ron Atkinson as their manager, but they never won the league during that time. Look at our game on Saturday, Accrington didn't have better players than us, they had players that wanted it more and had more heart and desire to win that game - you can't buy that I'm afraid. [Post edited 5 Oct 2021 11:34]
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You can't buy it but you can instil it. Mick had us outperforming our budget for years by putting together a side that was greater than the sum of its parts, that's what good managers do. |  |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:28 - Oct 5 with 881 views | itfcjoe |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 09:45 - Oct 5 by Darth_Koont |
I agree it was the target. What I’m reacting to is the idea that Cook goes if we miss that target this season, no matter what.
Then he might as well go now. And then give the new guy a slim chance of doing it before he gets canned.
I think there is some context, that’s all. And the underlying, more long-term goal for building the team up and eventually reaching the Prem is one of continuous improvement and upward mobility. |
We can't build a team for the long term in this division unless we go up - if we don't go up we lose Celina, Walton, Bonne and Coulson, as well as anyone who has had a very good season as we need to hit SCMP rules and then have to start again.
It's not unrealistic to expect 10 out and 10 in if we don't go up, and then we are back in the same place come August next season, as every other club in this league is every summer.
There can't be a long term plan that involves staying in this league, the long term plan comes when we are out of it |  |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:35 - Oct 5 with 861 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
No-one said the aim ISN'T automatic. But that has nothing to do with gelling. The hope is we gel in time to win promotion. People saying gelling is nonsense are clueless about football. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:35 - Oct 5 with 859 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:28 - Oct 5 by itfcjoe |
We can't build a team for the long term in this division unless we go up - if we don't go up we lose Celina, Walton, Bonne and Coulson, as well as anyone who has had a very good season as we need to hit SCMP rules and then have to start again.
It's not unrealistic to expect 10 out and 10 in if we don't go up, and then we are back in the same place come August next season, as every other club in this league is every summer.
There can't be a long term plan that involves staying in this league, the long term plan comes when we are out of it |
You cant lose what you dont have.
Town can always borrow someone else's players to avoid the work of developing their own. Again. A|fter all we 'lost' Bonne once before. |  |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:43 - Oct 5 with 841 views | itfcjoe |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:35 - Oct 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No-one said the aim ISN'T automatic. But that has nothing to do with gelling. The hope is we gel in time to win promotion. People saying gelling is nonsense are clueless about football. |
Again we go back to the turnover at every club in this division being so vast - very few teams can keep the core of their squad together - Morecambe came up, lost their manager and basically their whole first team including top scorer, and then later on their captain - they have a squad of 26 professionals and 21 of them are new signings.
We opted to take this route, most do it out of necessity, and most can't get the pick of the players they want.
People can talk about gelling until the cows come home, or the season only starting when Morsy is available, but frankly it's just excuses and the league table at the end of the season will be the ultimate judge of whether what we elected to do worked. At the moment it is so far from doing so, and par automatic promotion type form from now on in (which the squad should be capable of) then we won't even do as well as Paul Lambert and the squad that has had so much stick did. | |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:51 - Oct 5 with 808 views | SomethingBlue |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:28 - Oct 5 by itfcjoe |
We can't build a team for the long term in this division unless we go up - if we don't go up we lose Celina, Walton, Bonne and Coulson, as well as anyone who has had a very good season as we need to hit SCMP rules and then have to start again.
It's not unrealistic to expect 10 out and 10 in if we don't go up, and then we are back in the same place come August next season, as every other club in this league is every summer.
There can't be a long term plan that involves staying in this league, the long term plan comes when we are out of it |
This is *exactly* it. | |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:11 - Oct 5 with 773 views | Bluroo |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 07:37 - Oct 5 by textbackup |
everyone we've brought in are better than what we had.
possibly downes the only question mark, however his head was shot to pieces, so pointless him being here |
"everyone we've brought in are better than what we had".
ARE THEY? Based on reputation, trust in Cook, your opinion or some form of substantiative performance analysis?
I keep reading this but it smacks of emperor's new clothes to me. Certainly shades of the Hurst era when most thought the likes of Jackson, Nolan and Roberts would be mustard...
If you look at football as a whole, it's obviously nowhere near 100% of transfers are successful, so it's reasonable to suppose that not all of our transfers will prove to be inspired choices now. For one thing we've bought a lot of lower league players AGAIN and again looking at wider trends in football, that doesn't offer high levels of guarantee.
I'm not going to name players as they do need more time - and I should clarify that our manager is the fundamental problem here - but just don't buy this narrative that ALL of our new players are better than what we had. | | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:18 - Oct 5 with 757 views | Herbivore |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:11 - Oct 5 by Bluroo |
"everyone we've brought in are better than what we had".
ARE THEY? Based on reputation, trust in Cook, your opinion or some form of substantiative performance analysis?
I keep reading this but it smacks of emperor's new clothes to me. Certainly shades of the Hurst era when most thought the likes of Jackson, Nolan and Roberts would be mustard...
If you look at football as a whole, it's obviously nowhere near 100% of transfers are successful, so it's reasonable to suppose that not all of our transfers will prove to be inspired choices now. For one thing we've bought a lot of lower league players AGAIN and again looking at wider trends in football, that doesn't offer high levels of guarantee.
I'm not going to name players as they do need more time - and I should clarify that our manager is the fundamental problem here - but just don't buy this narrative that ALL of our new players are better than what we had. |
Which lower league players have we bought? All of our signings are from the same level as us or levels above?
Edit - someone has pointed out Hladky came from Salford, that's one signing from nineteen that counts as lower league. [Post edited 5 Oct 2021 11:36]
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:26 - Oct 5 with 725 views | Mach_foreignBlue |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:35 - Oct 5 by The_Flashing_Smile |
No-one said the aim ISN'T automatic. But that has nothing to do with gelling. The hope is we gel in time to win promotion. People saying gelling is nonsense are clueless about football. |
How long can we use 'gelling' as an excuse?
Of course gelling matters but our results and performances ought to have been better. Wigan have had a massive influx of new players this summer ditto Hull last season. I am not saying that we won't be having a wonderful run but things aren't looking promising at the moment. This squad is ridiculous and there will be no excuses for Cook if we fail to get promoted.
I don't blame him for last season at all as he had to work with the mob of horrible wasters, the perennial losers who didn't like it under him, Lambert and Hurst. That's been three managers for those wasters and it is very telling. But now Cook has got his own team and there is no place for excuses.
He was my preferred new manager. I don't want him to be sacked but equally I don't know what the solution is for us. |  | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:29 - Oct 5 with 721 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:18 - Oct 5 by Herbivore |
Which lower league players have we bought? All of our signings are from the same level as us or levels above?
Edit - someone has pointed out Hladky came from Salford, that's one signing from nineteen that counts as lower league. [Post edited 5 Oct 2021 11:36]
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The Salford goalie? Scottish football? Other teams unwanted dross, including somebody Town previously rejected - and appears to be one of the few successes? | |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:29 - Oct 5 with 721 views | Chrisd |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:22 - Oct 5 by Herbivore |
You can't buy it but you can instil it. Mick had us outperforming our budget for years by putting together a side that was greater than the sum of its parts, that's what good managers do. |
Like MM is doing now at Cardiff? Did we have one of the best squads in the Championship at the time? Probably, but MM had a good mix of quality and endeavour. It was only towards the last few seasons with us that the quality became diluted and the endeavour was more important because of the budget he was operating with. Like I said earlier, I'd still give PC this month and then go from there. | |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:32 - Oct 5 with 713 views | Herbivore |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:29 - Oct 5 by ElephantintheRoom |
The Salford goalie? Scottish football? Other teams unwanted dross, including somebody Town previously rejected - and appears to be one of the few successes? |
So just Hladky has come from a lower level, I'd forgotten about him to be honest. One player out of nineteen that could reasonably be described as lower league. | |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:35 - Oct 5 with 708 views | Herbivore |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:29 - Oct 5 by Chrisd |
Like MM is doing now at Cardiff? Did we have one of the best squads in the Championship at the time? Probably, but MM had a good mix of quality and endeavour. It was only towards the last few seasons with us that the quality became diluted and the endeavour was more important because of the budget he was operating with. Like I said earlier, I'd still give PC this month and then go from there. |
We never had close to one of the best squads in the Championship under Mick and yet he led us to 9th, 6th, and 7th in successive seasons during his time here. He did that through good coaching, having the team well organised, and ensuring that the effort and application was there. We now have a far better squad relative to the division we're in and yet we're managing a point a game. That suggests poor management. | |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:36 - Oct 5 with 707 views | HighgateBlue |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 09:55 - Oct 5 by ElephantintheRoom |
I did't realise that the season finished in early October?
This season has been a tad disappointing for those with unrealistic expectations coupled with a very short memory to blank out what happened under Cookie last season. But hey it's a marathon not a sprint - and whilst the shiny new brooms were apparently not very interested in the play-offs last season, I suspect they are this season. |
Top six is a realistic expectation with the money that's been spent. What has happened thus far has been a very major disappointment for those with that realistic expectation.
But I agree that we shouldn't blank out what happened under Cook last season. He was proper rubbish last season, and worse this. Broth spoilt. |  | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:39 - Oct 5 with 696 views | WilbrahamBlue |
Lets just see how it plays out? We can't influence this decision screaming the same personal views relentlessly as a response to each post on here. The game was Saturday and people are getting themselves in such a venomous tiff each day hammering their personal view home that they hammered home not hours before on another post.
If form doesn't pick up he will likely get sacked, the vocal minority will get what they desperately want and be proved 100% correct. Fair do's. Next guy will be given the same treatment.
If form picks up all fans will be over the moon with no personal bitterness for putting all their eggs in the 'sack him now' basket.
Lets just see. | | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:56 - Oct 5 with 646 views | timothyeo |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:43 - Oct 5 by itfcjoe |
Again we go back to the turnover at every club in this division being so vast - very few teams can keep the core of their squad together - Morecambe came up, lost their manager and basically their whole first team including top scorer, and then later on their captain - they have a squad of 26 professionals and 21 of them are new signings.
We opted to take this route, most do it out of necessity, and most can't get the pick of the players they want.
People can talk about gelling until the cows come home, or the season only starting when Morsy is available, but frankly it's just excuses and the league table at the end of the season will be the ultimate judge of whether what we elected to do worked. At the moment it is so far from doing so, and par automatic promotion type form from now on in (which the squad should be capable of) then we won't even do as well as Paul Lambert and the squad that has had so much stick did. |
This x 1000 | | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:02 - Oct 5 with 642 views | itfcsuth |
There seems to to be a misconception that if you aren't calling for the managers head right now you are happy with how the season has began. |  | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:06 - Oct 5 with 633 views | itfcjoe |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:02 - Oct 5 by itfcsuth |
There seems to to be a misconception that if you aren't calling for the managers head right now you are happy with how the season has began. |
There also seems to be a misconception that if you are disappointed with how the season has begun that you are calling for the managers head | |
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:10 - Oct 5 with 599 views | HighgateBlue |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 07:51 - Oct 5 by jayessess |
Derby County had the 6th largest budget in the Championship and finished 6th or higher in 4 seasons out of 6 post-Mel Morris' investment. First season of that run they finished 5th. They got what they paid for.
Getting real also involves understanding what a failure it is to consistently lose to teams with a fraction of your budget. |
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story! :) | | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:12 - Oct 5 with 595 views | HighgateBlue |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:19 - Oct 5 by Chrisd |
We haven't finished the season yet, we are 10 games in and if we finish in the top 6 and then get promoted, then haven't we got what we paid for? I agree it doesn't look good at the moment, but I still want to give PC this month's fixtures to see if he can pull it all together. Sides with smaller budgets are allowed to beat sides that spend more heavily, it happens on a weekly basis in leagues across the globe - look at PSG at the weekend. When I was growing up Manchester United were the big spenders with Ron Atkinson as their manager, but they never won the league during that time. Look at our game on Saturday, Accrington didn't have better players than us, they had players that wanted it more and had more heart and desire to win that game - you can't buy that I'm afraid. [Post edited 5 Oct 2021 11:34]
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This is an entirely fair point of view. But if Cook fails in October, please don't then say you'll give him until the end of November. The right call was made to pull the plug on Hurst early doors, and in my view the same will be true of Cook at the end of this month unless he has caused a real and measurable improvement in our results. | | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:12 - Oct 5 with 595 views | HighgateBlue |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 08:39 - Oct 5 by jayessess |
We wish. Derby were actually achieving league finishes roughly in line with their means. |
Not in line with their means, but in line with what they were spending ;) | | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:15 - Oct 5 with 592 views | HighgateBlue |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 22:22 - Oct 4 by Darth_Koont |
So far it is a disappointment.
But if we’re getting real, then a club that can only accept promotion this season especially with a completely new squad doesn’t understand the league we’re in.
There’s got to be degrees of success and failure in this, and a long-term plan, or we’re screwed. Spending sh/tloads on players and then demanding immediate success is the sort of thing I’ve associated with Derby recently and Notts County back in the day |
I appreciate this thread isn't entirely about Cook, but there is of course a real link between what fans are expecting or demanding in terms of results, and what view we take of whether Cook deserves more time, and how much.
In that vein, there was an interesting article in the Telegraph today (it's free, that's why I read it - I also read the Guardian for the same reason) about the comparison between taking an extreme approach like Watford's (to hiring and firing managers) and an approach like similar sized clubs who are more patient:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2021/10/05/watfords-unpalatable-hiring-firi | | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:33 - Oct 5 with 563 views | Churchman |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 11:26 - Oct 5 by Mach_foreignBlue |
How long can we use 'gelling' as an excuse?
Of course gelling matters but our results and performances ought to have been better. Wigan have had a massive influx of new players this summer ditto Hull last season. I am not saying that we won't be having a wonderful run but things aren't looking promising at the moment. This squad is ridiculous and there will be no excuses for Cook if we fail to get promoted.
I don't blame him for last season at all as he had to work with the mob of horrible wasters, the perennial losers who didn't like it under him, Lambert and Hurst. That's been three managers for those wasters and it is very telling. But now Cook has got his own team and there is no place for excuses.
He was my preferred new manager. I don't want him to be sacked but equally I don't know what the solution is for us. |
Agree with this.
I would add that from Cook, his players and coaching staff, the time for talk is over. They need to start delivering. Accrington, Burton and others above us are doing just that. Start competing.
I’m not interested in hearing if Cook needs an Assistant Manager, magic wand or a flamethrower. He’s been given all he’s asked for from coaches to players. The club has a stable structure to work in and his is the one area of glaring failure so far. If the club is serious about setting standards going forward then Cook will be gone soon unless things improve rapidly.
I was thinking of a game I went to in I think early 1980 in the FA Cup. We were improving rapidly and Luton were running away with the old Second Division (Championship). Kenilworth Road was a dump but that day a packed one. Luton started the game busting right into us. They were a good side and a confident one. We matched the in doing the hard, dirty stuff, second balls, challenges etc. It was actually the game Butcher smashed his hooter and bled all over the pitch. After matching them on the graft front, we proceeded to beat them with ease 3-0. It’s what good teams do.
That day, the team did the basics and class then told. The same principle applies in this pitifully weak league. I was happy with Cook’s appointment too and I hope he’s good enough to sort it out. |  | | |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:45 - Oct 5 with 540 views | Chrisd |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:12 - Oct 5 by HighgateBlue |
This is an entirely fair point of view. But if Cook fails in October, please don't then say you'll give him until the end of November. The right call was made to pull the plug on Hurst early doors, and in my view the same will be true of Cook at the end of this month unless he has caused a real and measurable improvement in our results. |
I won't and I'll hold my hands up now and admit I said previously, 'Judge him after the first 10 league games,' and here we are. With PH we really looked a poor side and incapable of even getting into the opposition's final third, I don't get that with PC's current side. The QPR game at home sticks firmly in my mind under PH, we were utterly toothless - it was men against boys that day. [Post edited 5 Oct 2021 12:47]
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| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 12:53 - Oct 5 with 514 views | portmanking |
| The aim this year was/is automatic promotion on 10:51 - Oct 5 by SomethingBlue |
This is *exactly* it. |
It's not strictly true though, is it?
You can build and get around SCMP rules if the new owners are prepared to invest equity, no? | | | |
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