| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... 11:00 - Nov 24 with 13587 views | itfcjoe |
.....the 'wasters' in the squad under a manager who had chucked the towel in had 50 points from 30 games.
In order for us to get to that same position, over the next 11 games we need the following record
P11 W8 D2 L1 Pts 26 |  |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:08 - Nov 25 with 962 views | JDB23 |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:04 - Nov 25 by pointofblue |
The big issue is we seem to be going backwards. The goals have dried up, the performances are getting worse - Oxford at home has somehow been built up as the Alamo with us having chance after chance; it was anything but.
If we could see signs of improvement, if we could see things were moving forward, even incrementally, then the argument to give him more time would be more grounded for me. Time is proving that we’re moving in the right direction. However, it feels like that is not the case. |
It’s interesting the argument has moved from “needs time as we are obviously improving” back to “needs time because it’s a new squad”. Just wait until we’re flopping in January and the excuse will be the new signings can’t be expected to have an immediate impact. |  | | |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:09 - Nov 25 with 950 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 11:35 - Nov 25 by Herbivore |
Apparently players wanting to go isn't an issue if they are under contract. That's the line now when people point out that some of our players may well want to move on if we don't go up this year. |
The difference is we all knew Downes definitely wanted to go, where as the current players wanting to move on if we don't go up is all guesswork. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:10 - Nov 25 with 949 views | textbackup |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:02 - Nov 25 by itfcjoe |
I think with the way the squad has been built, with the finances of it and the sheer quality from loan market then competing for automatic was the minimum expectation.
We aren't even competing for the play offs, and it's going to take something like 2 points per game from here on in just to do that - it's miles off what was expected and what was recruited for - including the late deadline additions which would have been seriously expensive (Morsy, Walton and Celina) |
I remember having the conversation on here, might have been with you, where the top two was spoken about....
we were saying if we missed out by 1 point and finished 3rd, and subsequently lost in the playoffs, cook would likely get next season too.
but if he finished 6th, 12 points off 3rd, and lost in the playoffs he probably wouldnt get next season too.....
how far off this chat seems now! |  |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:14 - Nov 25 with 941 views | Jon_456 |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 11:50 - Nov 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when you, one of the more sensible posters on here, would twist the facts so wildly.
So we were 7th when Lambert left? Despite the fact that several (including yourself if I remember rightly) were saying Gill was picking the team. And if Lambert "barely spoke to them" as you've just said, in what way was he managing them?
And at what point was it decided that 7th in League 1 (the highest point we achieved after a meaningful amount of games) constitutes "decent" anyway?!
You've either got a terrible memory or you're deliberately re-writing the feeling about Lambert because you hate Cook so much.
I'm not even defending Cook as we are a long way off where we should be now, but that "decent squad" you talk about finished 10th in League 1 under Lambert the year before. And the year before that they were 24th in the Championship. Not sure where you're getting this "decent" tag from. |
In fairness the point you've just made backs Joe's point up. We were being so poorly managed that PL wasnt even interacting with the players and the first team coach was in charge of picking the team, yet Cook came in and managed to pick up worse results.
I was a big fan of Cook (and still am) but theres no denying he failed miserably last year. He should have made the POs with them. | | | |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:23 - Nov 25 with 916 views | Radlett_blue |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:14 - Nov 25 by Jon_456 |
In fairness the point you've just made backs Joe's point up. We were being so poorly managed that PL wasnt even interacting with the players and the first team coach was in charge of picking the team, yet Cook came in and managed to pick up worse results.
I was a big fan of Cook (and still am) but theres no denying he failed miserably last year. He should have made the POs with them. |
The reason to be a big fan of Paul Cook is that he won league titles at each of his 3 previous clubs. At two of them, he did this in his second season; he took Wigan back up at his first attempt. Logic says that he should be given more than one season at Town, especially given the huge turnover of players, but you would hope that by the end of this season, we are at least challenging for the play-offs.
The possible alternative is that Cook is an inflexible manager & his system is now well know & easy to combat. |  |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:25 - Nov 25 with 911 views | WilbrahamBlue |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 11:47 - Nov 25 by Herbivore |
Okay, I can see now you're a troll with no interest in discussion or debate. What a waste of your time and mine. |
debate....'to influence...to persuade'.
Herbivore definition .....'to demand agreement or your a tw&t'
Ticking all the narcissistic behavioural traits.
I dread to think what you get up to away from football forums. | | | |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:27 - Nov 25 with 909 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 11:59 - Nov 25 by itfcjoe |
I don't really understand what you are saying here - decent does not mean brilliant. But to be 7th after 30 games you clearly have a bit about you when the management situation was a bit of a shambles.
Everyone expected it to kick on when Cook came in, it didn't. COok gets another go at it and still can't make it work - in a few more weeks if he carries on as is he will have wasted 2 opportunities at promotion |
You seem to have ignored all the stuff about Lambert not actually being in charge by the end. But anyway, I agree with your last bit. I think we just disagree on what constitutes "decent". Given how carp this league is (according to most posters on here) then just scraping into the top 10 isn't what I'd call decent. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:32 - Nov 25 with 891 views | Herbivore |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 11:57 - Nov 25 by leitrimblue |
I'm not defending his poor performance as such. I'm saying if we think he was right to rip up an rebuild the team other the summer then we should see it might take a while for that new team to reach it's peak. So saying they compare badly with last seasons side ignored the fact that last year's squad had been together for more then 3 months. And many people were asking for him to be sacked after 2-3 months |
But you'd rather hope that after 4 months the new squad - which on paper is much better - might be doing better than the previous squad. It's not though, and our form has actually declined over the past 6 games in contrast to the 6 games that preceded them. The bigger problem is that our period of gelling has not only taken a long time, certainly in comparison to some other sides who have made loads of signings, but that the results in that period haven't been good enough to keep us in touch with the promotion race.
Cook has been here almost 9 months now and it's been 9 months of underperforming, sadly. He's failing here and he needs to show something very soon to show he can take us forward if he's going to stay in his job. |  |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:33 - Nov 25 with 889 views | itfcjoe |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:10 - Nov 25 by textbackup |
I remember having the conversation on here, might have been with you, where the top two was spoken about....
we were saying if we missed out by 1 point and finished 3rd, and subsequently lost in the playoffs, cook would likely get next season too.
but if he finished 6th, 12 points off 3rd, and lost in the playoffs he probably wouldnt get next season too.....
how far off this chat seems now! |
Yep - the fan base is so patient, and that isn't always a bad thing - bit it does mean that for the third season ina row we've gone from wanting automatic, to competing for automatic, to wanting the play offs, to competing for the play offs and we just lower and lower our expectations
I'm sure if anyone spoke to Cook, and you can usually find him around and he is always good for a chat and very honest - he'd be panicking about his job and knows we are miles off where we should be. He'll set higher standards than anyone | |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:34 - Nov 25 with 883 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:04 - Nov 25 by pointofblue |
The big issue is we seem to be going backwards. The goals have dried up, the performances are getting worse - Oxford at home has somehow been built up as the Alamo with us having chance after chance; it was anything but.
If we could see signs of improvement, if we could see things were moving forward, even incrementally, then the argument to give him more time would be more grounded for me. Time is proving that we’re moving in the right direction. However, it feels like that is not the case. |
I don't agree the performances are getting worse. One performance, Tuesday night, was a lot worse than usual. The game before, if you watched it, was a very very good performance which the scoreline didn't suggest. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:37 - Nov 25 with 876 views | Jon_456 |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:23 - Nov 25 by Radlett_blue |
The reason to be a big fan of Paul Cook is that he won league titles at each of his 3 previous clubs. At two of them, he did this in his second season; he took Wigan back up at his first attempt. Logic says that he should be given more than one season at Town, especially given the huge turnover of players, but you would hope that by the end of this season, we are at least challenging for the play-offs.
The possible alternative is that Cook is an inflexible manager & his system is now well know & easy to combat. |
I agree. You dont get 3 EFL promotions by being a bad manager. He was my number 1 choice when we sacked PL and my opinions of him haven't changed, I still think he's a very good manager at this level.
How much time can we afford to give him though? He's failed so far and theres no guarantee it will click in the long term. Sometimes you just have to accept its not working out and move on. | | | |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:37 - Nov 25 with 876 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:14 - Nov 25 by Jon_456 |
In fairness the point you've just made backs Joe's point up. We were being so poorly managed that PL wasnt even interacting with the players and the first team coach was in charge of picking the team, yet Cook came in and managed to pick up worse results.
I was a big fan of Cook (and still am) but theres no denying he failed miserably last year. He should have made the POs with them. |
All that proves is Gill was a better coach with the previous team than both Lambert and Cook. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:38 - Nov 25 with 874 views | Herbivore |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:25 - Nov 25 by WilbrahamBlue |
debate....'to influence...to persuade'.
Herbivore definition .....'to demand agreement or your a tw&t'
Ticking all the narcissistic behavioural traits.
I dread to think what you get up to away from football forums. |
You seem obsessed mate, it's not healthy. Try engaging in the conversation rather than pointlessly sniping at me, you might even learn something. | |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:38 - Nov 25 with 870 views | N2_Blue |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:23 - Nov 25 by Radlett_blue |
The reason to be a big fan of Paul Cook is that he won league titles at each of his 3 previous clubs. At two of them, he did this in his second season; he took Wigan back up at his first attempt. Logic says that he should be given more than one season at Town, especially given the huge turnover of players, but you would hope that by the end of this season, we are at least challenging for the play-offs.
The possible alternative is that Cook is an inflexible manager & his system is now well know & easy to combat. |
Radlett Blue, the last line in your post here is crucial and spot on!
It is why managers who are seemingly very good and have success can then struggle to have the same success further on in their career. Their philosophy is known and worked out.
Managers need to be adaptable to have continued success.
If there was one recipe for being successful every manager would do it and it would be an easy game. To some extent Mourinho has suffered the same issue at a much higher level obviously.
Cook does appear to have been found out in that opposition managers know how to set up a team against him. It's telling also that 2nd half often proves our downfall after opposition managers have more opportunity to tweak things in response to our line up.
Cook's lack of adaptability is why i don't think he will have the same success as in the past and he will not be successful with us or in the future unless he changes his approach. The evidence is that he is unwilling or unable to change his approach and that is why we need a new man ASAP. |  |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:41 - Nov 25 with 864 views | Jon_456 |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:37 - Nov 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
All that proves is Gill was a better coach with the previous team than both Lambert and Cook. |
Whichever way you see it, its not a good look for Cook is it? A coach with no managerial experience is able to get more out of a squad in 2-3 games than Cook could from 16 games. | | | |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:43 - Nov 25 with 853 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:41 - Nov 25 by Jon_456 |
Whichever way you see it, its not a good look for Cook is it? A coach with no managerial experience is able to get more out of a squad in 2-3 games than Cook could from 16 games. |
Except that Gill had been around those players a long time. But no, I agree Cook should have done better with them, albeit we didn't have very much up front when he came in and Norwood was either injured or coming back from injury. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 13:57 - Nov 25 with 746 views | blueysbackside |
How much time had Lambo had with these ‘wasters’? Longer or shorter than Cook has had with this lot? | | | |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:07 - Nov 25 with 713 views | Jon_456 |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:43 - Nov 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Except that Gill had been around those players a long time. But no, I agree Cook should have done better with them, albeit we didn't have very much up front when he came in and Norwood was either injured or coming back from injury. |
Thats true. Think i'd completed erased the Drinan, Sears, Edwards front line from memory. | | | |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:09 - Nov 25 with 708 views | timothyeo |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:43 - Nov 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Except that Gill had been around those players a long time. But no, I agree Cook should have done better with them, albeit we didn't have very much up front when he came in and Norwood was either injured or coming back from injury. |
What magic does 'being around them' even bring?
Managers can come in and instantly change things, we've seen that here with Mick being the most obvious. But football is full of examples of Big Sam coming into a club and immediately producing results. Gill even left him with the team on a good run of form, and Cook still couldn't produce anything. He's worse than Gill, who's not even a manager, and he's worse than Lambert, who's barely a manager anymore. | | | |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:19 - Nov 25 with 677 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:07 - Nov 25 by Jon_456 |
Thats true. Think i'd completed erased the Drinan, Sears, Edwards front line from memory. |
They didn't do a lot that was memorable to be fair. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:22 - Nov 25 with 669 views | pointofblue |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:34 - Nov 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I don't agree the performances are getting worse. One performance, Tuesday night, was a lot worse than usual. The game before, if you watched it, was a very very good performance which the scoreline didn't suggest. |
Or is Sunderland the outlier post Wycombe? Both games against Oldham, Colchester, Oxford, Rotherham - all flat, uninspiring performances where we have struggled to create. | |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:25 - Nov 25 with 656 views | timothyeo |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 12:33 - Nov 25 by itfcjoe |
Yep - the fan base is so patient, and that isn't always a bad thing - bit it does mean that for the third season ina row we've gone from wanting automatic, to competing for automatic, to wanting the play offs, to competing for the play offs and we just lower and lower our expectations
I'm sure if anyone spoke to Cook, and you can usually find him around and he is always good for a chat and very honest - he'd be panicking about his job and knows we are miles off where we should be. He'll set higher standards than anyone |
The fan base is awfully patient. On the face of it you would think that's a good thing. But have we benefited from it at all? Or has it been the opposite?
Have we gained from this patience over say, a West Ham, who's fans have protested against the owners, against managers, vocally and with intent on multiple occasions over recent seasons? | | | |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:34 - Nov 25 with 637 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:09 - Nov 25 by timothyeo |
What magic does 'being around them' even bring?
Managers can come in and instantly change things, we've seen that here with Mick being the most obvious. But football is full of examples of Big Sam coming into a club and immediately producing results. Gill even left him with the team on a good run of form, and Cook still couldn't produce anything. He's worse than Gill, who's not even a manager, and he's worse than Lambert, who's barely a manager anymore. |
This is probably going to my last post to you because it's like trying to put a treacle hat on a polar bear.
If you've known someone a couple of years you know what their strengths and weakness are, their foibles, you have so many more insights in them that only come through time and working together. This is basic stuff, I shouldn't have to be explaining it to an adult.
Yes, some managers do instantly change things, but not all. Sir Bobby and GB have been debated, I don't know about Sir Alf, but let's look at John Lyall. In his first season we finished 14th. If it were down to you he'd be sacked, and we all know what happened next.
By cutting down acceptable managers to only ones who have an immediate effect, you run the risk of losing a great. That's why I still believe my way - of being patient - is a correct. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:38 - Nov 25 with 626 views | pointofblue |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:34 - Nov 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
This is probably going to my last post to you because it's like trying to put a treacle hat on a polar bear.
If you've known someone a couple of years you know what their strengths and weakness are, their foibles, you have so many more insights in them that only come through time and working together. This is basic stuff, I shouldn't have to be explaining it to an adult.
Yes, some managers do instantly change things, but not all. Sir Bobby and GB have been debated, I don't know about Sir Alf, but let's look at John Lyall. In his first season we finished 14th. If it were down to you he'd be sacked, and we all know what happened next.
By cutting down acceptable managers to only ones who have an immediate effect, you run the risk of losing a great. That's why I still believe my way - of being patient - is a correct. |
What was the expectation on Lyall? Did he have the best squad in the league and expected to walk it when he finished 14th? Honest question, it was before my time! | |
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| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:48 - Nov 25 with 594 views | NthQldITFC |
| When Paul Cook was appointed last year.... on 14:34 - Nov 25 by The_Flashing_Smile |
This is probably going to my last post to you because it's like trying to put a treacle hat on a polar bear.
If you've known someone a couple of years you know what their strengths and weakness are, their foibles, you have so many more insights in them that only come through time and working together. This is basic stuff, I shouldn't have to be explaining it to an adult.
Yes, some managers do instantly change things, but not all. Sir Bobby and GB have been debated, I don't know about Sir Alf, but let's look at John Lyall. In his first season we finished 14th. If it were down to you he'd be sacked, and we all know what happened next.
By cutting down acceptable managers to only ones who have an immediate effect, you run the risk of losing a great. That's why I still believe my way - of being patient - is a correct. |
I'm loving your simile there.
I would presume that it applies more or less equally to a hat of any fabric, on a bear of any kind? Or indeed, for that matter, a pair of gloves, galoshes or a merkin? |  |
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