| Scottish Independence Referendum 19:02 - Jun 28 with 6321 views | unbelievablue |
Here's your job: convince me (English, lives in England, no ties to Scotland) that I should care and/or be annoyed about it.*
*I say this because, in the social groups of which I am a (integral, obviously) contributing member, there seems to be a fair deal of hand-wringing/anger/annoyance about the whole thing, and I really can't tell why. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:12 - Jun 29 with 864 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:09 - Jun 29 by Rob88 |
Nicola Sturgeon is working with the Tories to fortify Tory rule? |
It’s a symbiotic relationship. The SNP need the Tories as a bogeyman. The Tories need the SNP at each election to frighten the voters with a Labour/SNP coalition. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:12 - Jun 29 with 863 views | giant_stow |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:09 - Jun 29 by Rob88 |
Nicola Sturgeon is working with the Tories to fortify Tory rule? |
Why would she care what happens in England, once they'd left?
I reckon the point has a bit of merit personally, and is another reason why I'm a tiny bit cross with SNP supporters looking to cut and run. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:19 - Jun 29 with 848 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 21:17 - Jun 28 by Lord_Lucan |
I agree with much if not all of that - except that they will need the capability to take and offload the super vessels from China carrying thousands upon thousands of shipping containers. I believe some firm has started to ship Ningbo to Greenock only this month but that's not enough capacity - ok so maybe they can improve on this but without using Soton, Felixstowe, Liverpool and Gateway I can't see it.
How will they be able to fund free university's, free prescriptions, free this, free that?
I'm not against the idea by the way - if that's what they want. |
They will build a bridge to Denmark and call it Boris. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:27 - Jun 29 with 834 views | Unit2Blue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 20:30 - Jun 28 by Lord_Lucan |
How many truck loads of lorries go from England to Scotland every day?
Imagine putting each load onto a vessel - and how deep do their ports go? How big a vessel can they accept?
In laymans terms - (I expect Koonty to be on the button here) How will they be able to afford it?
Aren't they in permanent deficit with UK Central? |
Do not forget the amount of container freight trains to. |  | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:31 - Jun 29 with 830 views | unbelievablue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 22:15 - Jun 28 by tractordownsouth |
Probably the biggest argument is that given how much damage Brexit and the disentanglement of a 50 year political and economic relationship with our nearest neighbours has caused, a similar divorce between two nations with a much deeper partnership will be even worse. If Scotland goes back into the EU - which admittedly wont be for a while because they don’t meet the membership criteria - there will need to be a hard border, so the traffic jams in Dover will be replicated in Cumbria and Northumberland.
And for Scotland, at the very least the UK was a net contributor to the EU. Of course the cost of membership was diminished by the economic benefits but Scotland doesn’t even have that because they’re net beneficiaries from the UK treasury.* The problems of regional inequality and a lack of investment are genuine issues but they won’t be solved by walking away from a near trading partner. Just look at how the UK government is trying to increase bankers bonus during a cost of living crisis to cope with the lack of FDI since Brexit. Scexit and Brexit for me are exactly the same thing - it’s a reaction to legitimate problems but almost all economic analysis suggests they’re bad ideas and won’t deal with the issues they claim to solve.
*For what it’s worth this is the entirely correct arrangement and I’m not begrudging it - poorer nations and regions of the union should receive more money. [Post edited 29 Jun 2022 7:57]
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I understand the sentiment but highly doubt the Scottish breaking away from the Union would have a worse impact than Brexit. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:32 - Jun 29 with 830 views | unbelievablue |
Yeah, thus far no-one has convinced me (although it does sound like it would be a particularly challenging socio-economic transition for Scots). | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:35 - Jun 29 with 822 views | Rob88 |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:12 - Jun 29 by GlasgowBlue |
It’s a symbiotic relationship. The SNP need the Tories as a bogeyman. The Tories need the SNP at each election to frighten the voters with a Labour/SNP coalition. |
It’s a bit of a stretch for me. | | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:57 - Jun 29 with 799 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:32 - Jun 29 by unbelievablue |
Yeah, thus far no-one has convinced me (although it does sound like it would be a particularly challenging socio-economic transition for Scots). |
Tariff-free access to Scotch
Shotgun weddings in Gretna Green
Taggart
How many more reasons do you need buh?! |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 09:06 - Jun 29 with 785 views | J2BLUE |
Can we donate to the campaign for independence? |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 09:38 - Jun 29 with 762 views | BlueBadger |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 19:28 - Jun 28 by Leaky |
Nice thought, however its another level of bureaucracy. its why I voted for Brexit another bunch of freeloaders. We could have more bureaucrats than people who who produce stuff |
Interesting argument there regarding red tape given that Brexit has added layers upon layers of it for manufacturers wishing to import parts or export finished product.
And also led to manufacturers leaving the country. [Post edited 29 Jun 2022 9:38]
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:18 - Jun 29 with 731 views | Darth_Koont |
Good thread for the most part.
It’ll take too long to unpack the different nonsense from the usual suspects and party politicians on here but people probably know when they’re spinning yarn by now.
As for independence supporters not caring about the rest of the UK, I don’t think that’s true. Sure for some shortbread extremists but for me and many others I know I think independence will be a massively bittersweet moment. The right thing for Scotland if it wants to offer a better life to its citizens, especially the younger ones. But disappointment and regret if you care about the rest of the UK and its regions too.
But hopefully going our own way and getting a life and economy halfway towards every single one of our neighbours in northwest Europe and Scandinavia might trigger something positive in the UK. I think Scotland was just 10-15 years earlier in rejecting the Westminster model, but the Northern Irish and even the Welsh are catching up now. And English politics has been a protest vote too, it’s just been occupied by the proxy, self-made problem of Brexit rather than admit that the UK establishment is not fit for purpose. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:18 - Jun 29 with 729 views | leitrimblue |
How is this gonna effect the export of Irn Bru an Tunnocks Teacakes? |  | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:22 - Jun 29 with 719 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:18 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
Good thread for the most part.
It’ll take too long to unpack the different nonsense from the usual suspects and party politicians on here but people probably know when they’re spinning yarn by now.
As for independence supporters not caring about the rest of the UK, I don’t think that’s true. Sure for some shortbread extremists but for me and many others I know I think independence will be a massively bittersweet moment. The right thing for Scotland if it wants to offer a better life to its citizens, especially the younger ones. But disappointment and regret if you care about the rest of the UK and its regions too.
But hopefully going our own way and getting a life and economy halfway towards every single one of our neighbours in northwest Europe and Scandinavia might trigger something positive in the UK. I think Scotland was just 10-15 years earlier in rejecting the Westminster model, but the Northern Irish and even the Welsh are catching up now. And English politics has been a protest vote too, it’s just been occupied by the proxy, self-made problem of Brexit rather than admit that the UK establishment is not fit for purpose. |
"Good thread for the most part" - "The parts of the thread I agree with"
"It’ll take too long to unpack the different nonsense from the usual suspects and party politicians on here but people probably know when they’re spinning yarn by now" - "The parts of the thread I disagree with and am unable/unwilling to address the points made" | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:30 - Jun 29 with 701 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:22 - Jun 29 by GlasgowBlue |
"Good thread for the most part" - "The parts of the thread I agree with"
"It’ll take too long to unpack the different nonsense from the usual suspects and party politicians on here but people probably know when they’re spinning yarn by now" - "The parts of the thread I disagree with and am unable/unwilling to address the points made" |
No. I just can’t be bothered to counter the silliness from you and others that I’ve already unpacked in the past. Where do you start?
Faced with the full clownery of the political fanboys, I think I’ll stick to commenting on the more sensible stuff. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:34 - Jun 29 with 693 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:18 - Jun 29 by leitrimblue |
How is this gonna effect the export of Irn Bru an Tunnocks Teacakes? |
It’ll be a negotiation so we’ll need to protect our natural resources dearly. And our very unnatural resources like Irn Bru! 😃 | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:35 - Jun 29 with 690 views | MattinLondon |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:12 - Jun 29 by giant_stow |
Why would she care what happens in England, once they'd left?
I reckon the point has a bit of merit personally, and is another reason why I'm a tiny bit cross with SNP supporters looking to cut and run. |
Surly she would be forced to care what’s happening politically in England - if they achieve independence- as the two countries will still have to work closely with one another.
On a side note, is there any other alternatives to independence? More powers deferred to S island etc more influence regarding foreign policy. |  | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:51 - Jun 29 with 653 views | unbelievablue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:18 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
Good thread for the most part.
It’ll take too long to unpack the different nonsense from the usual suspects and party politicians on here but people probably know when they’re spinning yarn by now.
As for independence supporters not caring about the rest of the UK, I don’t think that’s true. Sure for some shortbread extremists but for me and many others I know I think independence will be a massively bittersweet moment. The right thing for Scotland if it wants to offer a better life to its citizens, especially the younger ones. But disappointment and regret if you care about the rest of the UK and its regions too.
But hopefully going our own way and getting a life and economy halfway towards every single one of our neighbours in northwest Europe and Scandinavia might trigger something positive in the UK. I think Scotland was just 10-15 years earlier in rejecting the Westminster model, but the Northern Irish and even the Welsh are catching up now. And English politics has been a protest vote too, it’s just been occupied by the proxy, self-made problem of Brexit rather than admit that the UK establishment is not fit for purpose. |
Seems unnecessarily provocative to call out “nonsense” from “the usual suspects” in an otherwise well rounded post. This is what leads to degenerative 11 pagers which go careering off topic. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:51 - Jun 29 with 653 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 22:15 - Jun 28 by tractordownsouth |
Probably the biggest argument is that given how much damage Brexit and the disentanglement of a 50 year political and economic relationship with our nearest neighbours has caused, a similar divorce between two nations with a much deeper partnership will be even worse. If Scotland goes back into the EU - which admittedly wont be for a while because they don’t meet the membership criteria - there will need to be a hard border, so the traffic jams in Dover will be replicated in Cumbria and Northumberland.
And for Scotland, at the very least the UK was a net contributor to the EU. Of course the cost of membership was diminished by the economic benefits but Scotland doesn’t even have that because they’re net beneficiaries from the UK treasury.* The problems of regional inequality and a lack of investment are genuine issues but they won’t be solved by walking away from a near trading partner. Just look at how the UK government is trying to increase bankers bonus during a cost of living crisis to cope with the lack of FDI since Brexit. Scexit and Brexit for me are exactly the same thing - it’s a reaction to legitimate problems but almost all economic analysis suggests they’re bad ideas and won’t deal with the issues they claim to solve.
*For what it’s worth this is the entirely correct arrangement and I’m not begrudging it - poorer nations and regions of the union should receive more money. [Post edited 29 Jun 2022 7:57]
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Just silly.
For example, do you think FDI in Scotland will go down as a result of being an independent nation? How exactly when they’d be able to tailor terms and FDI in Scotland is already very low and dwarfed by FDI in our nearest neighbours?
But keep using the facile Brexit comparisons by all means. It’ll show that the UK parties just don’t understand much about anything beyond their own bubble. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:55 - Jun 29 with 637 views | pointofblue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:51 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
Just silly.
For example, do you think FDI in Scotland will go down as a result of being an independent nation? How exactly when they’d be able to tailor terms and FDI in Scotland is already very low and dwarfed by FDI in our nearest neighbours?
But keep using the facile Brexit comparisons by all means. It’ll show that the UK parties just don’t understand much about anything beyond their own bubble. |
I do have a simple question - why do you think Scottish Independence won’t run into the same, particularly economic, problems as Brexit has? | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:55 - Jun 29 with 636 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:51 - Jun 29 by unbelievablue |
Seems unnecessarily provocative to call out “nonsense” from “the usual suspects” in an otherwise well rounded post. This is what leads to degenerative 11 pagers which go careering off topic. |
I’ve engaged with their nonsense a lot before. And I’m sure I will again.
But fair point. In the future I will separate my responses to people like yourself who are coming at this more objectively. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:58 - Jun 29 with 629 views | leitrimblue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:34 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
It’ll be a negotiation so we’ll need to protect our natural resources dearly. And our very unnatural resources like Irn Bru! 😃 |
Probably not the best negotiating technique but I have to confess my addiction to both products is so strong I will pay whatever independence surcharge is put on um to guarantee I receive my fix. | | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 11:02 - Jun 29 with 622 views | clive_baker |
My thoughts are as follows:
- I think it's a decision for the Scottish people. I'm a patriot, and I'll never apologise for that. I want England and the UK to be the best version of itself it can be, which is why I regret that we've left the seat around the EU table. I think it would be a shame for Scotland to disenfranchise itself from the rest of the UK because I do believe it's stronger for the union, but as I say it's really a decision for the people of Scotland and democracy should prevail.
- For those that argue 'wasn't the last one a once in a generation vote', I would suggest the political and economic landscape has changed so materially since, thanks to Brexit and Covid that it does warrant asking the question again.
- Econimically it will be very, very challenging for Scotland. Scotland accounted for 9% of UK public spending last year, and only 8% of revenues. Scotland benefits from wealth created within the rest of the UK, namely London and the SE of England. Scotland isn't a particularly wealthy country, with GDP at £200bn, or £30k per capita. It's broadly on a par with Slovenia and Cyprus. When you consider 20% of that GDP is off shore, it's biggest assets historically (Oil and Gas) is a finite resource, and an industry that will see reducing demand, leaving a big hole in the public purse over the next 20 years. Half of GDP is through exports, 60% of which are in to the rest of the UK, which will become much more challenging and less compelling a source country for other UK businesses, especially if there's a hard border. Not to mention the softer factors like the sentiment shift it would create. Then there's the issue around currency, I don't know where Scotland starts with that.
All that was true of Brexit is also true of Scotland leaving the UK, but perhaps even more damaging given the size and scale of the country isn't anywhere near that of the UK. The reality of untangling such a long standing and deeply engrained relationship will be extremely painful practically, expensive, and damaging to the people of Scotland and their standard of living. I get the appeal, this governement is certainly doing precious little to create a compelling case to remain, and if the good people of Scotland want independence then they should be allowed to determine that.
BUT, I still maintain it's a choice for Scottish people to make, not for me. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 11:03 - Jun 29 with 621 views | giant_stow |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:51 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
Just silly.
For example, do you think FDI in Scotland will go down as a result of being an independent nation? How exactly when they’d be able to tailor terms and FDI in Scotland is already very low and dwarfed by FDI in our nearest neighbours?
But keep using the facile Brexit comparisons by all means. It’ll show that the UK parties just don’t understand much about anything beyond their own bubble. |
Side question: what's FDI ? | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 11:09 - Jun 29 with 606 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:55 - Jun 29 by pointofblue |
I do have a simple question - why do you think Scottish Independence won’t run into the same, particularly economic, problems as Brexit has? |
Just like Brexit, there are costs certainly in the short term but some even in the long term.
But unlike Brexit, there is no vague fantasy promise of sunny uplands and harnessing the ghost of empire. The upside is shown in reality: with all our similarly sized and even smaller neighbours in northwest Europe and Scandinavia who have developed far stronger and more diverse economies, better social and living standards and who do well within a union like the EU which allows smaller countries and regions to have a real say.
Costs will run into the billions, but the GDP gap from Scotland up to our similar-sized neighbours runs to the tens of billions with all the associated social benefits that brings. Scotland has so many natural and human resources plus the infrastructure and fledgling economy to take advantage of it. Rep. of Ireland has taken a different route without the same resources but even they’ve made it work by tailoring themselves to the world in a way that is completely impossible as part of the UK with the most centralised economy and one of the least-functioning democracies in the OECD. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 11:10 - Jun 29 with 605 views | wkj |
All I know is that I find it quite amusing that the party talking about the benefits of taking back control are not so keen for Scotland to take back control. |  |
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