| Scottish Independence Referendum 19:02 - Jun 28 with 6323 views | unbelievablue |
Here's your job: convince me (English, lives in England, no ties to Scotland) that I should care and/or be annoyed about it.*
*I say this because, in the social groups of which I am a (integral, obviously) contributing member, there seems to be a fair deal of hand-wringing/anger/annoyance about the whole thing, and I really can't tell why. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 13:57 - Jun 29 with 801 views | clive_baker |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 13:48 - Jun 29 by nodge_blue |
look, you're set on independence. Fair enough. Like Ive said if its going to happen Id rather it just did. We cant keep revisiting this every 8 years. Divorces are bitter - EU has shown that. Theres bound to be a period when its a bit post Brexit and that really bubbles up over terms. Maybe a lot would like that, personally I find it depressing.
I felt last time "Brexit" stress without even having a vote!
I also hope one day we vote to rejoin the EU. |
I'm with you on that. The optimum situation for me is that the UK remains as the UK, we rejoin the EU as the UK, we bun the tories and a United Kingdom works towards a fairer, greener, more inclusive society after some horrible years politically, and that we learn the lessons from this period.
I'll be honest though, I don't feel too passionate about Scotland's independance vote, if they want it good luck to them. I guess I probably feel how Europeans felt during Brexit, while here in England people had this misguided self confidence and sense of self importance that it was on the lips of the world, and Europe would be reeling from our departure. That'll learn 'em. Meanwhile ordinary people in Europe who I encountered on my travels were very 'meh'. "If you want to, do it. Good luck with it, I suspect you'll need it, but frankly we're not that ar5sed". Would've probably been sobering to the flag wavers over here, had their head not been so far up their ar5e to see it.
I feel like I'm on the opposite side of that exchange now with Scotland potentially leaving the UK. Genuinely the only people I know who care are Scottish friends of mine, nobody else. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 14:10 - Jun 29 with 770 views | nodge_blue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 13:57 - Jun 29 by clive_baker |
I'm with you on that. The optimum situation for me is that the UK remains as the UK, we rejoin the EU as the UK, we bun the tories and a United Kingdom works towards a fairer, greener, more inclusive society after some horrible years politically, and that we learn the lessons from this period.
I'll be honest though, I don't feel too passionate about Scotland's independance vote, if they want it good luck to them. I guess I probably feel how Europeans felt during Brexit, while here in England people had this misguided self confidence and sense of self importance that it was on the lips of the world, and Europe would be reeling from our departure. That'll learn 'em. Meanwhile ordinary people in Europe who I encountered on my travels were very 'meh'. "If you want to, do it. Good luck with it, I suspect you'll need it, but frankly we're not that ar5sed". Would've probably been sobering to the flag wavers over here, had their head not been so far up their ar5e to see it.
I feel like I'm on the opposite side of that exchange now with Scotland potentially leaving the UK. Genuinely the only people I know who care are Scottish friends of mine, nobody else. |
There is an irony that many of the SNP line of arguments mirror those of Brexiteers.
And also the it will all be ok in the divorce process too......we saw how that went. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 14:17 - Jun 29 with 763 views | clive_baker |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 14:10 - Jun 29 by nodge_blue |
There is an irony that many of the SNP line of arguments mirror those of Brexiteers.
And also the it will all be ok in the divorce process too......we saw how that went. |
That's the only regret, after Brexit and Covid it would be nice if the attention and budgets of our government could be focussed on real issues like health and education. Yet more protracted divorce discussions, legislation and ill-feeling is both financially costly and a massive distraction for all involved. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 14:30 - Jun 29 with 743 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 13:15 - Jun 29 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Apologies- late to the party on that one.
I’m still yet to see why leaving a larger market would have commercial benefits to firms, or indeed not affect overseas investment (sounds familiar). If the referendum were to rejoin the EU I could see an argument but it isn’t. It will be a nation of 5m outside any major trading blocks. It’s another campaign of empty rhetoric. |
Interested in Darth’s comments on my previous post
And also pension liabilities, borders, armed forces, nuclear deterrent, NATO membership, UK National debt, sovereign credit rating etc.
Does Nicola have an oven-ready deal? |  | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 14:55 - Jun 29 with 723 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 14:30 - Jun 29 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Interested in Darth’s comments on my previous post
And also pension liabilities, borders, armed forces, nuclear deterrent, NATO membership, UK National debt, sovereign credit rating etc.
Does Nicola have an oven-ready deal? |
No oven-ready deal. That wouldn’t be very serious.
Czechia and Slovakia managed it quite well. And even though it’s the other way West Germany did an amazing job of re-integrating East Germany and absorbing the massive costs and issues involved.
Of course it can be done. The key and necessary ingredient is that there’s an upside to generate the political and democratic will – and there most evidently is.
Yes, that will involve re-joining the EU or at least adopting a similar position to Norway. I don’t see any impediment to that with the UK now not in the EU. [Post edited 29 Jun 2022 14:57]
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 15:13 - Jun 29 with 710 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 14:55 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
No oven-ready deal. That wouldn’t be very serious.
Czechia and Slovakia managed it quite well. And even though it’s the other way West Germany did an amazing job of re-integrating East Germany and absorbing the massive costs and issues involved.
Of course it can be done. The key and necessary ingredient is that there’s an upside to generate the political and democratic will – and there most evidently is.
Yes, that will involve re-joining the EU or at least adopting a similar position to Norway. I don’t see any impediment to that with the UK now not in the EU. [Post edited 29 Jun 2022 14:57]
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Okay so thanks for confirming no plan in place and relying on pixie dust and magic, and a large dose of hoping for the best.
In no way similar to Brexit.
On that note I’m out, interesting debate but from what I’ve seen the pro arguments are entirely dogmatic. | | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 15:25 - Jun 29 with 701 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 15:13 - Jun 29 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Okay so thanks for confirming no plan in place and relying on pixie dust and magic, and a large dose of hoping for the best.
In no way similar to Brexit.
On that note I’m out, interesting debate but from what I’ve seen the pro arguments are entirely dogmatic. |
Haha!
Nothing I have said on this thread is about relying on pixie dust, magic or hope. Quite the opposite.
But your post fills me with joy and anticipation. I’m looking forward to seeing which other silly parts of the Brexiteer and/or Remainer logic start coming through in the No campaign. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 15:35 - Jun 29 with 684 views | chicoazul |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 10:18 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
Good thread for the most part.
It’ll take too long to unpack the different nonsense from the usual suspects and party politicians on here but people probably know when they’re spinning yarn by now.
As for independence supporters not caring about the rest of the UK, I don’t think that’s true. Sure for some shortbread extremists but for me and many others I know I think independence will be a massively bittersweet moment. The right thing for Scotland if it wants to offer a better life to its citizens, especially the younger ones. But disappointment and regret if you care about the rest of the UK and its regions too.
But hopefully going our own way and getting a life and economy halfway towards every single one of our neighbours in northwest Europe and Scandinavia might trigger something positive in the UK. I think Scotland was just 10-15 years earlier in rejecting the Westminster model, but the Northern Irish and even the Welsh are catching up now. And English politics has been a protest vote too, it’s just been occupied by the proxy, self-made problem of Brexit rather than admit that the UK establishment is not fit for purpose. |
Would you move back if they vote Yes? |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 15:42 - Jun 29 with 682 views | Grandpa |
Here's a frightening thought...if Scotland can now have their 2nd independence referendum in such a comparatively short space of time (having learned there's not supposed to be another 1 for at least a generation), will this mean the UK will get another chance to vote on re-joining the EU? | | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 15:43 - Jun 29 with 678 views | chicoazul |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 15:42 - Jun 29 by Grandpa |
Here's a frightening thought...if Scotland can now have their 2nd independence referendum in such a comparatively short space of time (having learned there's not supposed to be another 1 for at least a generation), will this mean the UK will get another chance to vote on re-joining the EU? |
Not for 20 years or so I’d say. The only route to a return to the EU now would be if one of the two main parties campaigned in a GE for it and won. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 16:04 - Jun 29 with 640 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 12:56 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
I’m not sure being one of Murdoch’s chief economics editors for 30+ years is the badge of honour you think it is.
And I have seen next to nothing over the years from these mainstream and largely right-wing pundits that has ever addressed the better economic status of every single one of our neighbours. If they can’t handle the evidence that is available but need to shape a narrative that excludes that instead, then it doesn’t say a lot for what they’re talking about.
Also, these are the people shaping the debate on the UK economy too. How’s that been working out? |
This is your main problem DK. You won’t accept any analysis unless it comes from Novara, the Canary, Evolve or the National.
It’s always kill the messenger with you and never the message. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 17:53 - Jun 29 with 577 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 15:35 - Jun 29 by chicoazul |
Would you move back if they vote Yes? |
Yes. I’ve been thinking about it anyway.
It would be great to be part of building a new better country. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 17:59 - Jun 29 with 569 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 16:04 - Jun 29 by GlasgowBlue |
This is your main problem DK. You won’t accept any analysis unless it comes from Novara, the Canary, Evolve or the National.
It’s always kill the messenger with you and never the message. |
I also killed the message but never mind.
You’re a big fan of the appeal to authority but that’s a logical fallacy. And I don’t think discrediting one of Murdoch’s key economics editors for more than 30 years is a particularly weird position to take. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 18:04 - Jun 29 with 553 views | jeera |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 17:53 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
Yes. I’ve been thinking about it anyway.
It would be great to be part of building a new better country. |
What? You don't live in Scotland?
I had no idea you had brought your culinary madness this side of the border.
I always visualised you as a tartan wielding, kilt wearing, bushy bearded, wide-eyed Highland type. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 18:08 - Jun 29 with 548 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 18:04 - Jun 29 by jeera |
What? You don't live in Scotland?
I had no idea you had brought your culinary madness this side of the border.
I always visualised you as a tartan wielding, kilt wearing, bushy bearded, wide-eyed Highland type. |
No, I’ve been anglicised. I can just about do the toilet in the right place too, rather than just lifting my kilt and letting fly. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 18:09 - Jun 29 with 544 views | ZXBlue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 17:59 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
I also killed the message but never mind.
You’re a big fan of the appeal to authority but that’s a logical fallacy. And I don’t think discrediting one of Murdoch’s key economics editors for more than 30 years is a particularly weird position to take. |
Its not necessarily a logical falacy. | | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 18:12 - Jun 29 with 536 views | jeera |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 18:08 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
No, I’ve been anglicised. I can just about do the toilet in the right place too, rather than just lifting my kilt and letting fly. |
Very cultured! | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 18:19 - Jun 29 with 534 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 18:09 - Jun 29 by ZXBlue |
Its not necessarily a logical falacy. |
Sure. Not necessarily.
I think a leading scientist has authority in his or her own field because they’ve mostly earned that authority empirically and that’s recognised by their peers too.
Political appointments like the chief economics editor of the Sunday Times aren’t based on economics but how they can shape Murdoch’s narrative. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 18:21 - Jun 29 with 531 views | Mullet |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 14:17 - Jun 29 by clive_baker |
That's the only regret, after Brexit and Covid it would be nice if the attention and budgets of our government could be focussed on real issues like health and education. Yet more protracted divorce discussions, legislation and ill-feeling is both financially costly and a massive distraction for all involved. |
The Tories have spent years stealthily killing off education as you or I knew it. The idea that business can pay for it in a tiered system and cream off the best alongside the wealthy is the likely end game.
While I work for a MAT and am far less anti-academy than when I trained, the mitigation of pitfalls and proliferation of business doublespeak and suits is very worrying. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 03:24 - Jun 30 with 428 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 11:31 - Jun 29 by Darth_Koont |
It’s not like Brexit. The cost/benefits are completely different.
But keep banging that drum if it helps you cope. And please make it the new Better Together campaign.
In your trade balance world, Ireland should be looking to join the UK. But even a child can see they’re better off out of it and able to navigate their own way. [Post edited 29 Jun 2022 11:32]
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Ireland seems like a more logical comparison than the Scandinavian countries to me. It is worth noting it has taken hard work, time, and financial bailouts. I'd expect economic hardship to proceed any benefits. But it is still a decision for the Scottish people. |  |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:01 - Jun 30 with 377 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 03:24 - Jun 30 by Kropotkin123 |
Ireland seems like a more logical comparison than the Scandinavian countries to me. It is worth noting it has taken hard work, time, and financial bailouts. I'd expect economic hardship to proceed any benefits. But it is still a decision for the Scottish people. |
You could almost be talking about Brexit in your last two sentences. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:50 - Jun 30 with 346 views | mylittletown |
To answer your question more directly, I think we would lose an important contributor to our British culture.
Scottish painting has always been very good, Scottish literature has been important, and Scottish music plays a big part in popular culture.
Scottish humour has been challenging and different. |  | | |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:55 - Jun 30 with 340 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 08:50 - Jun 30 by mylittletown |
To answer your question more directly, I think we would lose an important contributor to our British culture.
Scottish painting has always been very good, Scottish literature has been important, and Scottish music plays a big part in popular culture.
Scottish humour has been challenging and different. |
I can’t believe you left out Scottish cuisine? Where else would you find a deep fried mars bar and iron bru. | |
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| Scottish Independence Referendum on 09:21 - Jun 30 with 325 views | Darth_Koont |
| Scottish Independence Referendum on 03:24 - Jun 30 by Kropotkin123 |
Ireland seems like a more logical comparison than the Scandinavian countries to me. It is worth noting it has taken hard work, time, and financial bailouts. I'd expect economic hardship to proceed any benefits. But it is still a decision for the Scottish people. |
Of course. There’ll be hard work and above and beyond borrowing I suspect that we’ll need support along the way from allies and probably the EU who do have a record in investing in and developing regions.
But that shortfall in GDP and inability to support itself in the current terms is why Scotland needs to leave. How else is the Scottish economy and resulting society brought up to the level it should be with the current arrangement that doesn’t prioritise much outside centralised power and policies for its friends?
You can at least recognise that there is a more than healthy upside of increased GDP as the incentive. Based on the current gap with our neighbours, that can be as much as doubling Scottish GDP in the medium to long term. Brexit was always going to result in a likely drop in GDP with the only upside being deregulation that profits a small sliver of society in exchange for trade and investment barriers for everyone else. | |
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