| A very British coup? 14:01 - Sep 30 with 2257 views | GlasgowBlue |
The only way I see Tory MP's getting rid of Truss without costing them their seats at a general election (because Turkeys don't vote for Christmas) would be to resign the Tory whip and sit as an independent group. That independent group could then make Rishi Sunak their leader, command a majority in the house and form the next government.
That way it completely bypasses the Tory membership.
I'm trying to think of any other way it would work if Truss refuses to go. |  |
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| A very British coup? on 14:13 - Sep 30 with 2166 views | SaleAway |
Not sure that would work. You'd still need to have a vote of no confidence to get rid of Truss. At that point the Prime minister would either have to resign and offer someone else to form a government, or request a dissolution of parliament and force a general election. The "rogue" players would be out of control at that point. Even if Truss didn't call for dissolution, its unlikely that there would be enough rebels to form a majority, so we'd end up at a general election anyway. |  |
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| A very British coup? on 16:16 - Sep 30 with 2051 views | HARRY10 |
I'm not sure if it is disturbing or just expected, your lack of understanding of how Parliament works.
Unkind souls might think that ignorance is somehow connected to you being a rightie. | | | |
| A very British coup? on 16:29 - Sep 30 with 2032 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A very British coup? on 16:16 - Sep 30 by HARRY10 |
I'm not sure if it is disturbing or just expected, your lack of understanding of how Parliament works.
Unkind souls might think that ignorance is somehow connected to you being a rightie. |
Stanley Baldwin lost a vote on the King's speech in 1924. He couldn't command a majority so Labour, under Ramsay MacDonald, formed a government. No General election.
So if 200+ Tory MP's resigned the whip and set up a parliamentary group then they could claim to be the official opposition, as they' have more MP's than Labour.
In theory, if Liz Truss can't command a majority, but another group can then they are given a chance to form a government.
It's highly unlikely and unprecedented. But constitutionally it works. | |
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| A very British coup? on 16:42 - Sep 30 with 2011 views | HARRY10 |
| A very British coup? on 16:29 - Sep 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Stanley Baldwin lost a vote on the King's speech in 1924. He couldn't command a majority so Labour, under Ramsay MacDonald, formed a government. No General election.
So if 200+ Tory MP's resigned the whip and set up a parliamentary group then they could claim to be the official opposition, as they' have more MP's than Labour.
In theory, if Liz Truss can't command a majority, but another group can then they are given a chance to form a government.
It's highly unlikely and unprecedented. But constitutionally it works. |
Were that to be the case it allows for a Lab/Lib/SNP Alliance party (or some variation) to form a government. Even Tories are not that dim (I think)
I am not sure whether you stuff about Stanley Baldwin is correct either | | | |
| A very British coup? on 16:54 - Sep 30 with 1980 views | Keno |
They could defect en masse to the only credible opposition party and then force a no confidence
It’s time to prepare for government
Lib Dems are ready!!! |  |
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| A very British coup? on 16:58 - Sep 30 with 1972 views | bluelagos |
| A very British coup? on 16:42 - Sep 30 by HARRY10 |
Were that to be the case it allows for a Lab/Lib/SNP Alliance party (or some variation) to form a government. Even Tories are not that dim (I think)
I am not sure whether you stuff about Stanley Baldwin is correct either |
They don't have the numbers to command a parliamnetary majority.
And Glasser's theoretical breakaway would also find the same issue in all likelihood.
Unless large numbers of MPs chose to abstain in any vote of confidence. |  |
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| A very British coup? on 17:01 - Sep 30 with 1961 views | bournemouthblue |
What's the natural home for this Tory breakaway group?
The Brexit Party or whatever that short lived breakaway party was called, are they even still in existence?
I imagine it's highly unlikely but it would be amusing to see |  |
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| A very British coup? on 17:20 - Sep 30 with 1922 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A very British coup? on 16:42 - Sep 30 by HARRY10 |
Were that to be the case it allows for a Lab/Lib/SNP Alliance party (or some variation) to form a government. Even Tories are not that dim (I think)
I am not sure whether you stuff about Stanley Baldwin is correct either |
https://www.gov.uk/government/history/past-prime-ministers/james-ramsay-macdonal
“Back in Parliament, he became party leader and therefore Leader of the Opposition. In 1924 he was asked by George V to form a government when Stanley Baldwin’s small Conservative majority proved ungovernable”. | |
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| A very British coup? on 17:26 - Sep 30 with 1910 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A very British coup? on 16:58 - Sep 30 by bluelagos |
They don't have the numbers to command a parliamnetary majority.
And Glasser's theoretical breakaway would also find the same issue in all likelihood.
Unless large numbers of MPs chose to abstain in any vote of confidence. |
Unless 326 of the 370 Tory MPs break away then they don’t have a majority. But 200+ would make them the largest party and perhaps the markets would react favourably if Sunak took control.
We are in fantasy Parliament territory here and I’m thinking out loud, but other than a general election, which would again out us in limbo for at least five weeks I dint see what else will settle things down so that the economy doesn’t crash.
I can’t see Truss and here cronies going gracefully. | |
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| A very British coup? on 17:44 - Sep 30 with 1876 views | HARRY10 |
| A very British coup? on 16:29 - Sep 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Stanley Baldwin lost a vote on the King's speech in 1924. He couldn't command a majority so Labour, under Ramsay MacDonald, formed a government. No General election.
So if 200+ Tory MP's resigned the whip and set up a parliamentary group then they could claim to be the official opposition, as they' have more MP's than Labour.
In theory, if Liz Truss can't command a majority, but another group can then they are given a chance to form a government.
It's highly unlikely and unprecedented. But constitutionally it works. |
"Stanley Baldwin lost a vote on the King's speech* in 1924. He couldn't command a majority so Labour, under Ramsay MacDonald, formed a government. No General election. "
eh ?
There had just been an election, and Baldwin was unable to command a majority in the house, so Labour with the Libs formed a coalition.
They disagreed eventually, and another election was called, whereby Baldwin was elected ,and the Libs were hammered. Which if nothing else once again demonstrated the stupidity of PR.
So the 1924 election was nothing like the scenario you suggest might happen. 1924 was much as 2010.
A bit of behind the scenes horse trading directly after a GE, before a government was agreed.
Not as you suggest midstream, where a government is replaced.
* Kings speech, are you sure you are not getting real life confused with a film as Reagan did in 1984 | | | |
| A very British coup? on 19:14 - Sep 30 with 1813 views | Swansea_Blue |
Pah! You can prove anything with facts. |  |
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| A very British coup? on 19:23 - Sep 30 with 1799 views | HARRY10 |
| A very British coup? on 19:14 - Sep 30 by Swansea_Blue |
Pah! You can prove anything with facts. |
When they are correct, that is - which GBs fact is not | | | |
| A very British coup? on 20:27 - Sep 30 with 1745 views | Guthrum |
| A very British coup? on 17:26 - Sep 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Unless 326 of the 370 Tory MPs break away then they don’t have a majority. But 200+ would make them the largest party and perhaps the markets would react favourably if Sunak took control.
We are in fantasy Parliament territory here and I’m thinking out loud, but other than a general election, which would again out us in limbo for at least five weeks I dint see what else will settle things down so that the economy doesn’t crash.
I can’t see Truss and here cronies going gracefully. |
However, being the largest party is irrelevant, unless they can demonstrate the ability to command a majority in the House of Commons*, either in an organised coalition or propped up by some sort of confidence and supply agreement.
So your 200 Conservative-Independents would need the support of another 126 MPs** from somewhere.
* Otherwise it would be impossible for a government to pass their own legislation without help from the Opposition.
** Slightly fewer in practical terms, as the 7 Sinn Fein MPs neither take up their seats nor vote. [Post edited 30 Sep 2022 20:30]
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| A very British coup? on 20:41 - Sep 30 with 1718 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
We've had enough of your lot. Stop looking for loopholes and go (dis)gracefully FFS.
The Tories are dead. Feck the Tories. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| A very British coup? on 20:52 - Sep 30 with 1705 views | HARRY10 |
| A very British coup? on 20:27 - Sep 30 by Guthrum |
However, being the largest party is irrelevant, unless they can demonstrate the ability to command a majority in the House of Commons*, either in an organised coalition or propped up by some sort of confidence and supply agreement.
So your 200 Conservative-Independents would need the support of another 126 MPs** from somewhere.
* Otherwise it would be impossible for a government to pass their own legislation without help from the Opposition.
** Slightly fewer in practical terms, as the 7 Sinn Fein MPs neither take up their seats nor vote. [Post edited 30 Sep 2022 20:30]
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As we saw in July, once the bloater recognised that so many MPs no longer wanted him he resigned. If it came to something like 100 even then the game would be up. Simply by abstaining in any vote would see the government lose. A resignation would be expected to follow
What is clear is that Truss does not command the support of her MPs. Only 50 (14% voted for her in the first round, and less than a third when it came down to the final MPs vote.
I suspect there is view among many of the non swivel eyed grouping, who think that the ERG should be given this chance to hang themselves, and so let matters run their course. And the way Truss u-turns suggests she is being played by others in the background, as she is clearly clueless about the idiocies she spouts.
However, Parliament doesn't exist in a bubble as the poll tax revolt showed. MPs are not immune from the disquiet expressed by constituents and their local; chairmen. Truss might try and play the nuclear option, threatening to call an election. But most will know they are already on borrowed time so it would only be to earn a few extra months pay that they wouldn't call her bluff.
I think last w/e was when the last of any credibility in this Tory government gurgled down the plug hole.
As the saying goes 'w #eek in politics is a long time' - It is looking as if a week in Truss's premiership could be a long time. | | | |
| A very British coup? on 20:55 - Sep 30 with 1698 views | Plums |
| A very British coup? on 16:54 - Sep 30 by Keno |
They could defect en masse to the only credible opposition party and then force a no confidence
It’s time to prepare for government
Lib Dems are ready!!! |
As a Lib Dem, I wouldn't want them anywhere near the party. They can own the sh1t they've enabled, facilitated and cheered for. People who deny the poorest a lifeboat don't deserve one for their own wretched political careers. [Post edited 30 Sep 2022 21:07]
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| A very British coup? on 22:17 - Sep 30 with 1626 views | Keno |
| A very British coup? on 20:55 - Sep 30 by Plums |
As a Lib Dem, I wouldn't want them anywhere near the party. They can own the sh1t they've enabled, facilitated and cheered for. People who deny the poorest a lifeboat don't deserve one for their own wretched political careers. [Post edited 30 Sep 2022 21:07]
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Eh! That means there are at last 3 of us on here!! | |
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| A very British coup? on 23:03 - Sep 30 with 1578 views | Kesgrave_Exile |
| A very British coup? on 22:17 - Sep 30 by Keno |
Eh! That means there are at last 3 of us on here!! |
Make that four! | | | |
| A very British coup? on 01:18 - Oct 1 with 1487 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
But then they would be deselected and have to fight the next General Election as Independents, or One Nation Tories, or One Direction or JLS or whatever...
And the official Comservative Party would field candidates against all of them.
It didn't work for the Change crew, I don't think it would work now, under FPTP. | | | |
| A very British coup? on 02:47 - Oct 1 with 1444 views | Oldsmoker |
| A very British coup? on 17:26 - Sep 30 by GlasgowBlue |
Unless 326 of the 370 Tory MPs break away then they don’t have a majority. But 200+ would make them the largest party and perhaps the markets would react favourably if Sunak took control.
We are in fantasy Parliament territory here and I’m thinking out loud, but other than a general election, which would again out us in limbo for at least five weeks I dint see what else will settle things down so that the economy doesn’t crash.
I can’t see Truss and here cronies going gracefully. |
I don't think they have to leave the party to achieve their aims.
If your block of Tory dissenters formed a section within the party called the 'Real Conservatives' or similar then the conservative whip would find it difficult to bully individuals. This block, just like the ERG, would have to be consulted to get anything voted through.
The timid center could regain the clout that they have surrendered to the ERG since Brexit. |  |
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| A very British coup? on 08:44 - Oct 1 with 1297 views | NthQldITFC |
| A very British coup? on 23:03 - Sep 30 by Kesgrave_Exile |
Make that four! |
Four and a bit.
I'd call myself a Green, but I think their efforts are a little sub-optimal, and I like a bit of Labour, but ditto to a larger extent. Lib Dem can have a bit of me.
It's not a rigid 5-2-3 or 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2, it's the best bits of each we need, but absolutely first and foremost based on a solid defence (of the natural world which cradles us).
NoTribes. |  |
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| A very British coup? on 10:13 - Oct 1 with 1207 views | GlasgowBlue |
| A very British coup? on 01:18 - Oct 1 by ArnoldMoorhen |
But then they would be deselected and have to fight the next General Election as Independents, or One Nation Tories, or One Direction or JLS or whatever...
And the official Comservative Party would field candidates against all of them.
It didn't work for the Change crew, I don't think it would work now, under FPTP. |
What is the risk it runs. I'm quite out of touch with the Tory party these days. I know the membership are bat sh1t crazy but back in the day, the Chair of the associations were a little clamer. If that's still the case then perhaps they could bring some influence to a re selection process.
I understand what happened to Rory Stewart, David Gauke and the like. But they were selected by Johnson.
If the breakaway was temporary, in order to oust Truss and her cronies, then they could all come back into the fold under a new leader.
Or am I giving the parliamentary Tory party too much credit in expecting them to do the right thing, whilst at the same time preserving their seats until a general election that doesn't have to take place until 2024.
In answer to Dolly.
1. They are not my lot They haven't been my lot since 2017. As you well know.
2. I want Truss to go. But there isn't a realistic mechanism to remove her other than a voc, which would lead to an immediate general election. A general election that would see a lot of Tory MP's lose their seats.
They ain't going to vote for that so a straw clutching loophole is the best I have.
I' giving this to you from the world in which we live in. Not the one you want us to live in. | |
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| A very British coup? on 10:42 - Oct 1 with 1181 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
I wonder whether the tory grandees would be able to persuade Truss to develop a mysterious illness which would leave her unable to carry on. Either that or an unfortunate slip from the roof of the Palace of Westminster. |  |
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| A very British coup? on 11:00 - Oct 1 with 1130 views | leitrimblue |
| A very British coup? on 02:47 - Oct 1 by Oldsmoker |
I don't think they have to leave the party to achieve their aims.
If your block of Tory dissenters formed a section within the party called the 'Real Conservatives' or similar then the conservative whip would find it difficult to bully individuals. This block, just like the ERG, would have to be consulted to get anything voted through.
The timid center could regain the clout that they have surrendered to the ERG since Brexit. |
I like the idea of the 'Real Conservatives' led by Rory Stewart. Would be a real left wing alternative to Starmer  |  | | |
| A very British coup? on 11:13 - Oct 1 with 1099 views | Churchman |
| A very British coup? on 10:42 - Oct 1 by Tangledupin_Blue |
I wonder whether the tory grandees would be able to persuade Truss to develop a mysterious illness which would leave her unable to carry on. Either that or an unfortunate slip from the roof of the Palace of Westminster. |
Or the Putin method - a fall out of a window. Defenestration.
Sadly, none of it will happen. Because in their tiny minds, they are 100% right and everyone else is wrong or just can’t see it. The madness is set in and they’ve gone one step beyond. All that’s left is the night boat to Cairo.
Back in our house, there is an interesting article attached about the Tory dislike of experts, acronyms and people with experience. The term they now use as a dirty word is ‘orthodoxy’.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/tory-party-liz-truss-gove-experts-frost-mad [Post edited 1 Oct 2022 11:15]
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