| Triple lock could add £45 billion a year to state pensions bill by 2050 08:18 - Sep 8 with 11810 views | DJR |
Following on from a thread which I think Joe started, and speaking as someone only two years off state pension age, the following is a disgrace in terms of generational fairness. The triple lock must go, with additional help targeted at those pensioners who need it, although it should be noted that according to Karl Emerson of the IFS, speaking on the Today Programme this morning, pensioner poverty rates are actually lower than the general population.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/sep/08/triple-lock-could-add-45bn-to-stat
[Post edited 8 Sep 2023 18:19]
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:28 - Sep 8 with 5965 views | chicoazul |
Triple lock will go within the next few years. |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:31 - Sep 8 with 5952 views | geg1992 |
I'm kinda just anticipating that a state pension won't exist when I retire. |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:35 - Sep 8 with 5942 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:28 - Sep 8 by chicoazul |
Triple lock will go within the next few years. |
The article suggests Labour, when they win the next election, will have pledged to keep triple lock for 5 years.
A lot of Labour activists are going to be disappointed with Tory light. |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:46 - Sep 8 with 5931 views | bluelagos |
It is becoming harder to justify, paying wealthy pensioners benefits when there are far more needy causes in society.
We have a generation that benefited from cheap housing, generous pension schemes, job security, free higher education.
But the elder voter is active and unlikely to appreciate losing put on something they feel they are entitled to. How.often do they talk about "paying in" with no understanding of the changing demographics (they paid for previous pensioners,.nothing more)
It is undoubtedly a huge issue, much like elderly health care (care homes) that needs to be addressed. But our limited mind set (to get re-elected) mean politicians will continue to avoid addressing this area.
Some simple solutions (that don't penalise the poorest pensioners) could be means testing the annual rises? Or means testing the pension full stop (though as someone who has planned that into my retirement plans can see that should maybe be delayed phased in to allow people to prepare)
Whatever they do, it will likely take away from the middle classes so is unlikely to win any votes. But the economic case is getting stronger, the aging population makes the current system unsustainable |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:48 - Sep 8 with 5914 views | thebooks |
Hmm, not sure why anyone would advocate for reducing pensions, especially when private provision is so poor. We’ll all be pensioners one day. It’s just a race to the bottom that encourages a “but there’s no money left” narrative, and sets one part of the population against another.
If pensioner poverty rates are lower than the rest of the population the answer to that “problem” isn’t to impoverish pensioners. |  | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:52 - Sep 8 with 5890 views | bluelagos |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:31 - Sep 8 by geg1992 |
I'm kinda just anticipating that a state pension won't exist when I retire. |
Not sure of your age but I think the demographics simply make the current system unsustainable.
If you want a comfy retirement then absolutely make your own provisions. But easier said than done for many when the cost of housing/renting is so expensive.
Seems to me that soon we wiill be (if not already there) a country where our.children are worse off than their parents... | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:53 - Sep 8 with 5885 views | rodney76 |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:46 - Sep 8 by bluelagos |
It is becoming harder to justify, paying wealthy pensioners benefits when there are far more needy causes in society.
We have a generation that benefited from cheap housing, generous pension schemes, job security, free higher education.
But the elder voter is active and unlikely to appreciate losing put on something they feel they are entitled to. How.often do they talk about "paying in" with no understanding of the changing demographics (they paid for previous pensioners,.nothing more)
It is undoubtedly a huge issue, much like elderly health care (care homes) that needs to be addressed. But our limited mind set (to get re-elected) mean politicians will continue to avoid addressing this area.
Some simple solutions (that don't penalise the poorest pensioners) could be means testing the annual rises? Or means testing the pension full stop (though as someone who has planned that into my retirement plans can see that should maybe be delayed phased in to allow people to prepare)
Whatever they do, it will likely take away from the middle classes so is unlikely to win any votes. But the economic case is getting stronger, the aging population makes the current system unsustainable |
Most of it is ploughed back into the economy. OAPs keep shops, pubs etc in business and add to the tax account.
There should be some ceiling of entitlement for the very rich and even more restrictions on ex-pats whose money is spent in Spain or wherever. They do not qualify for annual increases, but many use a UK address to avoid this measure. |  | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:57 - Sep 8 with 5875 views | bluelagos |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:48 - Sep 8 by thebooks |
Hmm, not sure why anyone would advocate for reducing pensions, especially when private provision is so poor. We’ll all be pensioners one day. It’s just a race to the bottom that encourages a “but there’s no money left” narrative, and sets one part of the population against another.
If pensioner poverty rates are lower than the rest of the population the answer to that “problem” isn’t to impoverish pensioners. |
The problem is that our current system is unsustainable.
To address your point, I would advocate protecting the poorest pensioners,.absolutely.
But wealthy pensioners,.say those with private incomes of 50k pa, why do we think giving them an additional 11k of public money is sensible rather than say investing more in the NHS,.roads,.schools.etc..? | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:58 - Sep 8 with 5871 views | thebooks |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:52 - Sep 8 by bluelagos |
Not sure of your age but I think the demographics simply make the current system unsustainable.
If you want a comfy retirement then absolutely make your own provisions. But easier said than done for many when the cost of housing/renting is so expensive.
Seems to me that soon we wiill be (if not already there) a country where our.children are worse off than their parents... |
Aren’t the answers to that problem something like rent controls, higher taxes on assets like second homes etc. rather than making pensioners’ lives just as miserable?
I do get the anger at the political hypocrisy of providing non-means tested, index-linked benefits for the only sector of the population that will vote for you, but that doesn’t mean you get rid of those principles. | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:02 - Sep 8 with 5857 views | thebooks |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:57 - Sep 8 by bluelagos |
The problem is that our current system is unsustainable.
To address your point, I would advocate protecting the poorest pensioners,.absolutely.
But wealthy pensioners,.say those with private incomes of 50k pa, why do we think giving them an additional 11k of public money is sensible rather than say investing more in the NHS,.roads,.schools.etc..? |
Because it doesn’t have to be an either/or decision.
To see it as such is to accept an essentially Tory, neo-liberal view of the “economy”, where there are a finite amount of resources that are never enough to cover what is actually needed.
Means testing benefits inevitably leads to eviscerating them over time. | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:03 - Sep 8 with 5857 views | Cotty |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:48 - Sep 8 by thebooks |
Hmm, not sure why anyone would advocate for reducing pensions, especially when private provision is so poor. We’ll all be pensioners one day. It’s just a race to the bottom that encourages a “but there’s no money left” narrative, and sets one part of the population against another.
If pensioner poverty rates are lower than the rest of the population the answer to that “problem” isn’t to impoverish pensioners. |
But the triple lock ensures real terms growth in pension benefits (in the medium term). Scrapping it doesn't mean cutting pensions, they could simply be linked entirely to inflation. |  | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:03 - Sep 8 with 5852 views | Keno |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:46 - Sep 8 by bluelagos |
It is becoming harder to justify, paying wealthy pensioners benefits when there are far more needy causes in society.
We have a generation that benefited from cheap housing, generous pension schemes, job security, free higher education.
But the elder voter is active and unlikely to appreciate losing put on something they feel they are entitled to. How.often do they talk about "paying in" with no understanding of the changing demographics (they paid for previous pensioners,.nothing more)
It is undoubtedly a huge issue, much like elderly health care (care homes) that needs to be addressed. But our limited mind set (to get re-elected) mean politicians will continue to avoid addressing this area.
Some simple solutions (that don't penalise the poorest pensioners) could be means testing the annual rises? Or means testing the pension full stop (though as someone who has planned that into my retirement plans can see that should maybe be delayed phased in to allow people to prepare)
Whatever they do, it will likely take away from the middle classes so is unlikely to win any votes. But the economic case is getting stronger, the aging population makes the current system unsustainable |
There are solutions to long term retirement provision and even social care issues but no party is willing to enact them for fear of losing the next few elections
What we could do with is a 10 year period of a cross party 'war-time type' coalition with no elections to worry about to this, and a few other issues out
not least people who walk there dogs in season at 'peak-times' |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:04 - Sep 8 with 5844 views | bluelagos |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:53 - Sep 8 by rodney76 |
Most of it is ploughed back into the economy. OAPs keep shops, pubs etc in business and add to the tax account.
There should be some ceiling of entitlement for the very rich and even more restrictions on ex-pats whose money is spent in Spain or wherever. They do not qualify for annual increases, but many use a UK address to avoid this measure. |
"There should be some ceiling..."
So the only real point to argue is where we draw a line and accept that those over that point are wealthy enough not to need an index linked 11k pa of public money.
I'd argue the 40% tax band, around 50k feels about right but others may feel it should be higher/lower. But as a point of principle paying super wealthy pensioners public money does seem ridiculous. | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:06 - Sep 8 with 5836 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Pensions should be means tested, there are many wealthy pensioners BUT it’s a miserly amount for those with no other income, especially over the last 18 months where most of it is eaten up on not freezing to death in their homes over winter.
Also worth noting that amount is less than-
-money siphoned off to pals for sh1te PPE, yachts for models, and track and trace
-half of the amount this country spends on interest each year simply servicing our debt. | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:11 - Sep 8 with 5814 views | EdwardStone |
The big problem with any means tested benefit/pension that it is expensive to administer.
Tax collection and benefits/pensions can either be expensive or fair; they cannot be both. [Post edited 8 Sep 2023 9:43]
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:11 - Sep 8 with 5810 views | bluelagos |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:58 - Sep 8 by thebooks |
Aren’t the answers to that problem something like rent controls, higher taxes on assets like second homes etc. rather than making pensioners’ lives just as miserable?
I do get the anger at the political hypocrisy of providing non-means tested, index-linked benefits for the only sector of the population that will vote for you, but that doesn’t mean you get rid of those principles. |
Think your suggestions are sensible ones. But they don't address the demographic issues. I read the other day that Japan is on track to having more pensioners than people working.
Presumably we will too (as some point)... | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:21 - Sep 8 with 5710 views | thebooks |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:11 - Sep 8 by bluelagos |
Think your suggestions are sensible ones. But they don't address the demographic issues. I read the other day that Japan is on track to having more pensioners than people working.
Presumably we will too (as some point)... |
Yes, I don’t doubt that this is a “challenge”, but governments are all about tackling challenges and change. My problem is with a view that these challenges are never solvable except through impoverishing people, rather than exploring ways of redistributing wealth and resources. The UK is a wealthy country.
(Appreciate you’re advocating means-testing rather than simply reducing pensions and changing the way they’re calculated.) | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:28 - Sep 8 with 5691 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:53 - Sep 8 by rodney76 |
Most of it is ploughed back into the economy. OAPs keep shops, pubs etc in business and add to the tax account.
There should be some ceiling of entitlement for the very rich and even more restrictions on ex-pats whose money is spent in Spain or wherever. They do not qualify for annual increases, but many use a UK address to avoid this measure. |
Incorrect information. UK pensioners living in many countries still receive the same increases as those resident in UK. | |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:40 - Sep 8 with 5662 views | itfc24 |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:46 - Sep 8 by bluelagos |
It is becoming harder to justify, paying wealthy pensioners benefits when there are far more needy causes in society.
We have a generation that benefited from cheap housing, generous pension schemes, job security, free higher education.
But the elder voter is active and unlikely to appreciate losing put on something they feel they are entitled to. How.often do they talk about "paying in" with no understanding of the changing demographics (they paid for previous pensioners,.nothing more)
It is undoubtedly a huge issue, much like elderly health care (care homes) that needs to be addressed. But our limited mind set (to get re-elected) mean politicians will continue to avoid addressing this area.
Some simple solutions (that don't penalise the poorest pensioners) could be means testing the annual rises? Or means testing the pension full stop (though as someone who has planned that into my retirement plans can see that should maybe be delayed phased in to allow people to prepare)
Whatever they do, it will likely take away from the middle classes so is unlikely to win any votes. But the economic case is getting stronger, the aging population makes the current system unsustainable |
'paying wealthy pensioners benefits'
Horrendous attitude, people that have paid more in tax and NI than anyone are denied state pension because of far needier causes (which these rich old people have also paid more for than anyone).
Shameful. | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:44 - Sep 8 with 5619 views | rodney76 |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:28 - Sep 8 by Pinewoodblue |
Incorrect information. UK pensioners living in many countries still receive the same increases as those resident in UK. |
Yes. I am aware that it is not all-encompassing but not of the countries exempt. Is it EU pensioners? Australian ex-pats?
Certainly not some of the popular retirement destinations in Asia (eg. Thailand, Cambodia etc.) | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:49 - Sep 8 with 5589 views | Churchman |
Surely by reducing the average age people live, especially the poorest in society, they’ll reduce the state pensions bill. Bumping the plebs off sooner - a new tory policy? If it is, it’s been just about their only success. A sort of natural ‘let the bodies pile high’ (thank you ‘caring Boris’ - idiot).
Seriously and back to reality, I’m amazed the triple lock has remained so long. This year, I’m told the rise will be based on average earnings rise rather than inflation. Whatever mechanism is used, triple lock doesn’t look fair to me, despite me being the same age as DJR and standing to benefit, if I’m lucky.
In terms of poverty rates, if people are just relying on state pension, good luck with that. £10500 or £875 pcm which is about the max you can get with full contribution under New State Pension isn’t a lot.
I certainly don’t believe in removing state pension for those who have made provision for their own retirement either. But there does need to be a mechanism to help those who need it. Pensioners spend money in the real economy so it’s in everyone’s interest for them to have money to spend.
I keep hearing how we can’t afford things. Tired of it. Been hearing it for 13 years as they’ve attempted to dismantle society brick by brick. In a £3tn economy? Yes we can afford it.
Managed to find money to buy rubbish PPE from China to literally burn, to fund mates’ contracts and fill fraudsters pockets. Managed to build the Welfare State after WW2 bankrupted the country too. It’s all about the will to do stuff, finding a way. But we all know what the will of the current lot is. [Post edited 8 Sep 2023 9:51]
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:56 - Sep 8 with 5559 views | giant_stow |
It's clearly got to go. £45b each year is massive and unsustainable when you look at all the other spending needs. Either that or we'll end up with a pissed off young serf class working to provide foe elders who've had far more comfy lives than they'll ever be able to dream of. |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 10:10 - Sep 8 with 5523 views | Darth_Koont |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:56 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
It's clearly got to go. £45b each year is massive and unsustainable when you look at all the other spending needs. Either that or we'll end up with a pissed off young serf class working to provide foe elders who've had far more comfy lives than they'll ever be able to dream of. |
It’s generational theft and it’s already here even before this kicks in.
And seemingly everybody in our political class has not only watched it happen but facilitated it as they make themselves, their donors/backers and the establishment they serve wealthier at everybody else’s cost now and in the future.
We’re such a clueless country when it comes to the basic and most important stuff. |  |
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| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 10:28 - Sep 8 with 5472 views | swede |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 09:56 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
It's clearly got to go. £45b each year is massive and unsustainable when you look at all the other spending needs. Either that or we'll end up with a pissed off young serf class working to provide foe elders who've had far more comfy lives than they'll ever be able to dream of. |
Please stop perpetuating the myth that young people are providing for "elders who've had more comfy lives than they will ever be able to dream of". For most people of my generation this is simply not true.
Yes, further education was free, but I still could not take up a place as I had to get a job to support my mother and siblings.
Yes, I bought my first house for £13K, but I was only bringing home £49 per week. That cheap home was a 3 bed terrace with no heating, bathroom or inside toilet. I spent every free hour renovating it.
When my children were young, I could not afford a caravan holiday in Lowestoft yet alone ever dream of going abroad. We did without.
Meals out and takeaways were simply unknown. They never happened.
I had to miss 12 years of going to Portman Road as my children needed to be clothed and fed as a priority.
I am very soon due to collect my state pension after working for almost 50 years. I will still not be living in luxury, nor do I aspire to it. But without a state pension propping up my meagre private pension, I would not survive.
All my life I have learned to be content with what I have and not spend recklessly what I do not have. It is a lesson many of the younger generation would do well to learn too. | | | |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 10:35 - Sep 8 with 5454 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Triple lock could add £45 billion to state pensions bill by 2020 on 08:35 - Sep 8 by Pinewoodblue |
The article suggests Labour, when they win the next election, will have pledged to keep triple lock for 5 years.
A lot of Labour activists are going to be disappointed with Tory light. |
"Tory light" is still 100 times better than, full on, "We will not use lube" Tory. [Post edited 8 Sep 2023 10:35]
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