| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW 18:11 - Apr 21 with 3730 views | Trequartista |
What a nonsense |  |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:38 - Apr 21 with 1220 views | NthQldITFC |
I don't know how this VAR sh!t works, because I don't follow Premier League (yet), but is there a fuzzy line which favours the attacker, i.e gives benefit of the doubt?
Or is there an absolute line, without any dimension in the pitch-lengthwise direction, and if so is that entirely automatically generated or does some human do it by eye? Either way, it's a sh!tty way to decide a football match. |  |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:51 - Apr 21 with 1163 views | grow_our_own |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:28 - Apr 21 by pointofblue |
It's a toenail offside as said, but is offside. Just. But would anyone give a damn or call them lucky had it been given - even United fans? No, as it was that close. |
Bear in mind that VAR will be semi automated for offsides next season. Fewer delays and better communicated. Perhaps with higher frames per second this would be adjudged level, but that's not a reason to ditch VAR completely. It's a reason to continue improving VAR. Who chooses the frame when the ball left the foot? If it was the frame before, perhaps this would have been on. If it's impossible to tell, then lines should be an average (possibly weighted) of several frames.
But better to occasionally get these borderline decisions wrong at the behest of a machine (mostly) than make absolute howlers, which often occurred pre-VAR. Howlers, which on average favoured the big clubs and home teams. It's a physical impossibility for a human lino to simultaneously see when ball is kicked and whether attacker is beyond last defender. VAR might not be 100%, but it's much more accurate than a human with a single pair of eyes. And it's not bent.
It might have spoilt a fairy-tale moment for Coventry today, but football refereeing shouldn't care about that. It's sport, not contrived theatre. If it had been a last minute Man Utd goal ruled out, we wouldn't be having this conversation. [Post edited 21 Apr 18:54]
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:53 - Apr 21 with 1153 views | OldFart71 |
When the initial move happened the player wasn't offside, they then showed the replay, look at the way the grass is cut, again not offside. VAR and the line shows his toenail is offside. How thick is the line ? Is the line in the right position ? Somehow an onside became an offside in my opinion. Would VAR have given offside if the goal had been by Man Utd. Don't get me wrong, after Town Man Utd were always my second team. Why, because one of my mates when I grew up was a Utd fanatic and when we had a kick about on my local football pitch we were always Law, Best and Charlton with Stepney in goal. So I don't have an axe to grind with Utd. Having said that I am not opposed to City winning either as when on song there's no team better. Feel desperately sad for Coventry and it's supporters. But still hope we come away with something. | | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:58 - Apr 21 with 1125 views | Trequartista |
I mean having said all that, my second biggest gripe after var toenail offsides is the current interpretation of the handball rule, so it has to be said the Coventry penalty was fortunate, I don't know how Wan-Bissaka gets out of the way of that. | |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:58 - Apr 21 with 1118 views | ibbleobble |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:16 - Apr 21 by SitfcB |
Clear cut? |
Fkin ridiculous. The greatest FA Cup comeback of all time ruled out for that! Look at the defensive line. The goal should have stood for that alone. | | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 19:03 - Apr 21 with 1106 views | Churchman |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:32 - Apr 21 by NeedhamChris |
I don't agree with VAR. But the red line is closer to the goal than the blue line. |
I thought that and assumed something was wrong with my eyesight! Mind you if MU had ten players between the Coventry player and the goal it’d still have been disallowed for something. |  | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 19:13 - Apr 21 with 1080 views | RamRob |
TBF if the player is going to be given offside when it looks so close to level, on this occasion you can argue he was in an offside position and never got back onside before the ball was played.
The argument about clear and obvious is moot for offside as they've decided it's black and white, you either are or aren't offside. Especially as the officials are encouraged NOT to immediately raise their flags for offside, it's impossible to judge with the naked eye, so let the technology make the decision.
Also The colour of the lines do not correspond to the colour team plays in so the red doesn't mean it's the man utd line.
Until the offside rule is adjusted this is what will keep happening |  |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 19:15 - Apr 21 with 1071 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:58 - Apr 21 by Trequartista |
I mean having said all that, my second biggest gripe after var toenail offsides is the current interpretation of the handball rule, so it has to be said the Coventry penalty was fortunate, I don't know how Wan-Bissaka gets out of the way of that. |
He spread his arms wide a moment beforehand. But for that he might well have got a different decision. | | | |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 19:26 - Apr 21 with 1029 views | jontysnut |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:16 - Apr 21 by lowhouseblue |
it's not even a toenail. it's a farce. |
Mike Summerbee's nose would have frequently been offside |  | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 19:57 - Apr 21 with 982 views | USA |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:12 - Apr 21 by _clive_baker_ |
Absolute farce in incidents like that. |
Yup. VAR introduced to stop clear and obvious errors. Not that garbage | | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 19:58 - Apr 21 with 980 views | USA |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:16 - Apr 21 by HighgateBlue |
Don't know what the answer is though. The margin between offside and not offside is always going to be infinitesimally small, regardless of where you draw the line. And if you get rid of any video input, then there will be awful decisions that are much more wrong than this one, with no ability to overturn it even though millions at home can see that it's obviously wrong. |
The answer is to scrap offside | | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 22:17 - Apr 21 with 856 views | Plums |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 19:57 - Apr 21 by USA |
Yup. VAR introduced to stop clear and obvious errors. Not that garbage |
It appears to have been used to confirm an on field decision which is a very different scenario to the one that people are getting exercised about.
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 22:23 - Apr 21 with 835 views | Zx1988 |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 22:17 - Apr 21 by Plums |
It appears to have been used to confirm an on field decision which is a very different scenario to the one that people are getting exercised about.
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I think that's just the CCFC twitter account having held off until the goal was confirmed.
The MUFC account tweeted that Coventry had scored at 1808hrs, and then that the goal had been VARed off at 1810hrs. It seems to just be the terminology used by Coventry rather than an immediate flag. | |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 22:30 - Apr 21 with 803 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 22:17 - Apr 21 by Plums |
It appears to have been used to confirm an on field decision which is a very different scenario to the one that people are getting exercised about.
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Given that it has been made clear that offside is to be treated as a binary line decision rather than in that way, I don't think it matters. | | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 22:32 - Apr 21 with 788 views | Plums |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 22:23 - Apr 21 by Zx1988 |
I think that's just the CCFC twitter account having held off until the goal was confirmed.
The MUFC account tweeted that Coventry had scored at 1808hrs, and then that the goal had been VARed off at 1810hrs. It seems to just be the terminology used by Coventry rather than an immediate flag. |
Yep, you're correct. I've just rewatched it on YouTube and there is no flag. The United players all look to the lino and then play on.
VAR is a shambles. | |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 22:54 - Apr 21 with 750 views | HighgateBlue |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 19:58 - Apr 21 by USA |
The answer is to scrap offside |
That would be quite a change to the game of football. There's been some kind of offside rule in versions of football since before the FA existed and since before the 1863 Cambridge Rules. |  | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 07:30 - Apr 22 with 641 views | Churchman |
When all is said and done, the question is has VAR improved the game or not?
I’d argue not. The delays, loss of spontaneity, still errors at the end of it, diminishing of officials accountability and possibly ability to make decisions all tell me it is a hinderance, not a help.
Goal line technology - great. It works. VAR - more harm than good. Scrap it. | | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 08:41 - Apr 22 with 586 views | Herbivore |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 22:32 - Apr 21 by Plums |
Yep, you're correct. I've just rewatched it on YouTube and there is no flag. The United players all look to the lino and then play on.
VAR is a shambles. |
They are told not to flag immediately for tight calls so if the flag went up it would be after the ball went in. |  |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 09:51 - Apr 22 with 554 views | Parsley |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:17 - Apr 21 by pointofblue |
Clear cut in offside is offside, rather than a grey area where it's "on field call" or something like that. |
How clear cut is it though? Can they really accurately tell to the correct frame when the pass has been made and how much error is there if the line was drawn a frame earlier or later? How accurately can these lines actually be drawn?
Feels to me like there should be a margin of error included in decisions and in these cases benefit of the doubt should go to the attacking team. I would say on-field call but they tend to let things play out rather than actually making a decision. |  | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 09:59 - Apr 22 with 536 views | NthQldITFC |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 09:51 - Apr 22 by Parsley |
How clear cut is it though? Can they really accurately tell to the correct frame when the pass has been made and how much error is there if the line was drawn a frame earlier or later? How accurately can these lines actually be drawn?
Feels to me like there should be a margin of error included in decisions and in these cases benefit of the doubt should go to the attacking team. I would say on-field call but they tend to let things play out rather than actually making a decision. |
Exactly. It's like someone saying 1.234 x 2.0 is 2.468. It isn't, it's 2.5. | |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 10:01 - Apr 22 with 533 views | grow_our_own |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 09:51 - Apr 22 by Parsley |
How clear cut is it though? Can they really accurately tell to the correct frame when the pass has been made and how much error is there if the line was drawn a frame earlier or later? How accurately can these lines actually be drawn?
Feels to me like there should be a margin of error included in decisions and in these cases benefit of the doubt should go to the attacking team. I would say on-field call but they tend to let things play out rather than actually making a decision. |
"benefit of the doubt should go to the attacking team" - agreed, but this is proposing a change to the offside rule, not VAR. [Post edited 22 Apr 10:11]
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 10:11 - Apr 22 with 524 views | grow_our_own |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 07:30 - Apr 22 by Churchman |
When all is said and done, the question is has VAR improved the game or not?
I’d argue not. The delays, loss of spontaneity, still errors at the end of it, diminishing of officials accountability and possibly ability to make decisions all tell me it is a hinderance, not a help.
Goal line technology - great. It works. VAR - more harm than good. Scrap it. |
"delays, loss of spontaneity" - will be faster before the end of the year. Semi-automation will "cut the average length of a VAR check for offside by 30 seconds": https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/13112834/premier-league-semi-autom | | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 11:03 - Apr 22 with 488 views | hype313 |
VAR was introduced to give those in charge of football more control over the storylines they can sell.
They want the biggest (most overseas fans) teams in the final of cup competitions - they want the Premier League title (and relegation) to go down to the final day - "as it stands" table, the trophy in a helicopter sat at Stockley Park unsure if it's flying to London, Liverpool ot Manchester...
It's good for ratings, it's good when renegotiating TV deals.
They don't want Coventry in the final, who's watching that in China or the Middle East? 60-70% less than if it's one of the big sellers.
That should never ever be offside and it's a big reason why "local" match going fans are switching to lower league. |  |
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| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 13:49 - Apr 22 with 432 views | Churchman |
So it’ll bring it down to about 2 mins 30 secs then. Whoopee.
The only way a VAR check can add value is if it can be done accurately virtually immediately. Nought out of two, then.
Some say it’s more important to take time to get the decision right. At the moment they don’t always get it right so we have the worst of both worlds.
One of the joys of football was that the rules were the same whether you played Sunday League or top professional game. We seem to have moved away from that. It saddens me.
Still, the authorities will be able to give themselves a cheeky smile and a little pat on the back for yesterday. They got the final ‘everyone wanted’. No cruddy little no mark Coventry stinking Wembley out. No chance of a horror show like Wigan or any other non-top six club spoiling it for the sponsors and the public who only ever want to see the Manchester clubs, Liverpool, Arse, Spurs and Chelsea. | | | |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 14:30 - Apr 22 with 403 views | HighgateBlue |
| Toenail offside BIN VAR NOW on 18:15 - Apr 21 by Alberto_the_frog |
It's meant to be for a clear and obvious error. If He's an inch offside, that's not an obvious error. In real time it would count as being level. A major downside of going up this season would be having to deal with that sort of nonsense. |
There are many reasons to hate VAR, and there are many rival arguments about what the solution is (if there is one).
But in terms of what the Laws of the Game ARE, rather than what they perhaps ought to be, the "clear and obvious" stipulation does not apply to a "serious missed incident". See para 4 of law 5, pasted at the bottom of this message.
As I understand it, a missed offside is deemed to be a "serious missed incident" and hence is not subject to the "clear and obvious" stipulation.
The Premier League website has some FAQs (also below, but of course I realise the Cov v Man U match was not a Premier League match) which seem to indicate that where a decision is an objective decision such as whether someone was in an offside position, rather than a subjective one (for example, whether something is an obvious goalscoring opportunity), the "clear and obvious stipulation" doesn't apply. I think that is just the Premier League trying to set it out in simpler terms rather than trying to tally with the wording of the Law 100%.
Of course, if the offside decision was fully automated and a whistle went off instantaneously, there would have been no 'goal', and we wouldn't be as annoyed as we are. But that is not technologically possible.
SECTION FROM PREMIER LEAGUE FAQS:
https://www.premierleague.com/news/1293321
"When will VAR be used in Premier League matches?
The VAR is constantly monitoring the match.
VAR is used only for "clear and obvious errors" or "serious missed incidents" in four match-changing situations: goals; penalty decisions; direct red-card incidents; and mistaken identity.
But factual decisions such as offsides, and the issue of whether a player is inside or outside the penalty area, are not subject to the "clear and obvious" test.
If the VAR sees an error has been made in such a situation they will intervene, regardless of how marginal the decision is.
There is a high bar for the VARs to intervene on subjective decisions, to maintain the pace and intensity of matches."
SECTION FROM THE LAWS OF THE GAME:
https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11
"4. Video assistant referee (VAR)
The use of video assistant referees (VARs) is only permitted where the match/competition organiser has fulfilled all Implementation Assistance and Approval Programme (IAAP) requirements as set out in FIFA's IAAP documents, and has received written permission from FIFA.
The referee may be assisted by a video assistant referee (VAR) only in the event of a 'clear and obvious error' or 'serious missed incident' in relation to:
goal/no goal
penalty/no penalty
direct red card (not second caution)
mistaken identity when the referee cautions or sends off the wrong player of the offending team
The assistance from the video assistant referee (VAR) will relate to using replay(s) of the incident. The referee will make the final decision which may be based solely on the information from the VAR and/or the referee reviewing the replay footage directly ('on-field review').
Except for a 'serious missed incident' the referee (and where relevant other 'on-field', match officials) must always make a decision (including a decision not to penalise a potential offence); this decision does not change unless it is a 'clear and obvious error'.
REVIEWS AFTER PLAY HAS RESTARTED
If play has stopped and restarted, the referee may only undertake a 'review', and take the appropriate disciplinary sanction, for mistaken identity or for a potential sending off offence relating to violent conduct, spitting, biting or extremely offensive, insulting and/or abusive action(s)." | | | |
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