| VAT on Private School 14:06 - Jun 13 with 29369 views | mutters |
Whilst it does seem like the correct thing to do (why are they granted VAT free / Charity status in the first place?), how on earth will the system cope if there is a mass migration to the state sector? We are already short of school places and also decent ones as well. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 14:09 - Jun 13 with 10232 views | lowhouseblue |
perhaps the schools could cut their costs and absorb the vat? i'm sure they will if demand looks like dropping off. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| VAT on Private School on 14:11 - Jun 13 with 10215 views | DarkBrandon |
Private school fees have gone up a lot over the last 5-10 years, suggesting that demand is pretty price inelastic.
And while there is a shortage of places at secondary schools, there isn’t at the primary level. Birth rates are falling and schools will be closing soon. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 14:11 - Jun 13 with 10212 views | dickie |
I really don't think this will happen. Yes a few of the people who can just afford it might migrate but the wealthy will surely just continue to pay - to a lot them thousands of pounds a term is small change. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 14:12 - Jun 13 with 10188 views | hype313 |
This is very ill thought through, not everyone who goes to private school comes from background where parents are CEO's of fortune 500 companies, a lot of them come from middle income backgrounds, this policy will put a huge amount of pressure on the state system and it just seems like an unnecessary policy in the grand scheme of things.
The problem is, they want to abolish the likes of Eton etc, these places will easily be able to absorb the VAT, it's the smaller independents that will struggle.
Don't get it. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 14:17 - Jun 13 with 10108 views | itfcjoe |
| VAT on Private School on 14:12 - Jun 13 by hype313 |
This is very ill thought through, not everyone who goes to private school comes from background where parents are CEO's of fortune 500 companies, a lot of them come from middle income backgrounds, this policy will put a huge amount of pressure on the state system and it just seems like an unnecessary policy in the grand scheme of things.
The problem is, they want to abolish the likes of Eton etc, these places will easily be able to absorb the VAT, it's the smaller independents that will struggle.
Don't get it. |
I think there is a difference now from when i was younger where private school has got so prohibitively expensive it is out of reach of even the well paid professionals who used to send kids there like Drs, lawyers etc.
It's really only for those with a bit of family money behind them, or very high earners.
Ipswich, St Joes, Woodbridge, etc are all now £15k a year per child - for a family with 2 kids you are currently needing to find £30k a year after tax - with the best will in the world a couple where both are earning £50k a year just simply couldn't afford it.
If people can find £30k a year after tax, chances are it isn't from income, so would be able to find a bit more if they want to continue to send kids there - or the school will need to meet them half way.
I can't afford the VAT on a new Lambo but don't expect much sympathy for it! |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 14:20 - Jun 13 with 10073 views | RadioOrwell |
You're believing that there are in fact a load of parents who can only afford fees if there is no VAT.
That it's the 20% which is the difference between private or state education.
I don't think it's very many who are on the limit.
It's a scare tactic which raises the exact question that you have raised.
In any case, the schools themselves won't want an exodus of pupils so they will have to - in classic Tory language - have to tighten their belts and reduce fees to keep their schools full.
Parents - less smashed avocado and expensive lattes !
You touch on the 'why no VAT' question.
Well it's a big question.
If I want a Porsche but I can only afford it if VAT is removed we are simply saying I can't afford a Porsche.
It's a choice whether we fund schools properly - with or without an exodus from private schools.
We have chosen not to. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 14:22 - Jun 13 with 10041 views | RadioOrwell |
| VAT on Private School on 14:12 - Jun 13 by hype313 |
This is very ill thought through, not everyone who goes to private school comes from background where parents are CEO's of fortune 500 companies, a lot of them come from middle income backgrounds, this policy will put a huge amount of pressure on the state system and it just seems like an unnecessary policy in the grand scheme of things.
The problem is, they want to abolish the likes of Eton etc, these places will easily be able to absorb the VAT, it's the smaller independents that will struggle.
Don't get it. |
They don't want to abolish the like of Eton etc. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 14:24 - Jun 13 with 10011 views | itfcjoe |
| VAT on Private School on 14:20 - Jun 13 by RadioOrwell |
You're believing that there are in fact a load of parents who can only afford fees if there is no VAT.
That it's the 20% which is the difference between private or state education.
I don't think it's very many who are on the limit.
It's a scare tactic which raises the exact question that you have raised.
In any case, the schools themselves won't want an exodus of pupils so they will have to - in classic Tory language - have to tighten their belts and reduce fees to keep their schools full.
Parents - less smashed avocado and expensive lattes !
You touch on the 'why no VAT' question.
Well it's a big question.
If I want a Porsche but I can only afford it if VAT is removed we are simply saying I can't afford a Porsche.
It's a choice whether we fund schools properly - with or without an exodus from private schools.
We have chosen not to. |
Like every other business has been by the Govt over last 8 years, it's basically deal with this sh*t we are dropping - only the strongest survive, capitalism etc | |
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| VAT on Private School on 14:29 - Jun 13 with 9963 views | hype313 |
| VAT on Private School on 14:17 - Jun 13 by itfcjoe |
I think there is a difference now from when i was younger where private school has got so prohibitively expensive it is out of reach of even the well paid professionals who used to send kids there like Drs, lawyers etc.
It's really only for those with a bit of family money behind them, or very high earners.
Ipswich, St Joes, Woodbridge, etc are all now £15k a year per child - for a family with 2 kids you are currently needing to find £30k a year after tax - with the best will in the world a couple where both are earning £50k a year just simply couldn't afford it.
If people can find £30k a year after tax, chances are it isn't from income, so would be able to find a bit more if they want to continue to send kids there - or the school will need to meet them half way.
I can't afford the VAT on a new Lambo but don't expect much sympathy for it! |
A large proportion of kids in Independents are on scholarship's/bursaries etc, my sister teaches at St Joe's and said a huge percentage come from that.
But agree in principle, especially the Lambo analogy. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 14:29 - Jun 13 with 9965 views | Zx1988 |
There was a very good More or Less on R4 about this yesterday:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00202g3
It's worth a listen, but the broad gist is this:
1) Private schools make up about 8% of the UK education sector.
2) At the moment a baby boom is slowly working its way through the state sector, with the majority sitting across the Primary-to-High School divide.
3) As the boom works its way through, class sizes should drop about 8% from their peaks.
On this basis, assuming that every private school closed and every single student moved into the state sector, there would be enough capacity in the state sector to pick up the extra demand.
In reality, there are a good number of pupils in the private sector that are foreign nationals, and would probably move elsewhere. Likewise, it will be down to schools themselves to decide how much of the increase due to VAT they will pass on to parents. I can't imagine that any private schools are living on a hand-to-mouth basis, so there will be plenty of scope within the sector to not just hike all fees by 20%. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 14:31]
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| VAT on Private School on 14:33 - Jun 13 with 9937 views | itfcjoe |
| VAT on Private School on 14:29 - Jun 13 by hype313 |
A large proportion of kids in Independents are on scholarship's/bursaries etc, my sister teaches at St Joe's and said a huge percentage come from that.
But agree in principle, especially the Lambo analogy. |
I guess those things just exacerbate an unfair system, but schools will have to find a way to keep pupils coming and trim some fat off their offering | |
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| VAT on Private School on 14:38 - Jun 13 with 9832 views | baxterbasics |
It seems like a textbook 'hurt the rich for the sake of equality' policy which has been badly thought through. A rare concession from Starmer to the left of the party.
Believe it will make the UK the only country in Europe to tax education (but ready to be fact-checked on this).
But I also think there will be some room for the schools themselves to take the hit, rather than parents, so maybe it won't be as impactful as predicted? |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 14:40 - Jun 13 with 9810 views | Swansea_Blue |
I'm on the fence. On the face of it, they should have to add VAT as they're providing a commercial exchange. But then private health care and dentists are VAT exempted, so why not another key sector?
I suspect the majority of parents could afford i, and that's just judging from the rows of brand new £80k+ cars that line up outside the private schools here. Some would possibly struggle of course.
I'd rather we brought the state sector up and got rid of private schools altogether. We could have one system that everyone is proud of. Maybe politicians could be forced to only use public services - we'd soon see an improvement! |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 15:09 - Jun 13 with 9674 views | homer_123 |
A wider but related question [more a stream of thoughts on reflection].
Lots of talk of 'trimming fat' in this thread that private schools will need to do to keep competitive. One of which might be reducing wages.
Though, surely, we accept that within the UK teachers are both underpaid and utterly disrespected now as a profession (sadly).
Don't know about anyone else but Education in this Country needs a huge investment, not least in wages to encourage people to come to the profession in the first instance. Sure, it's a more vocational career than others but that doesn't mean people should be underpaid. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 15:18]
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| VAT on Private School on 15:22 - Jun 13 with 9609 views | itfc48 |
| VAT on Private School on 15:09 - Jun 13 by homer_123 |
A wider but related question [more a stream of thoughts on reflection].
Lots of talk of 'trimming fat' in this thread that private schools will need to do to keep competitive. One of which might be reducing wages.
Though, surely, we accept that within the UK teachers are both underpaid and utterly disrespected now as a profession (sadly).
Don't know about anyone else but Education in this Country needs a huge investment, not least in wages to encourage people to come to the profession in the first instance. Sure, it's a more vocational career than others but that doesn't mean people should be underpaid. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 15:18]
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I wonder what sort of figures they've run. 20% on £15k is £3k however the funding for a state primary pupil is over £4.5k and a secondary pupil nearly £6k so if they end up in a mass migration scenario they may not actually raise a large net sum via this policy. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 15:32 - Jun 13 with 9557 views | MattinLondon |
There won’t be a mass forced exodus from private to comprehensive schooling.
What I find offensive is Tory MPs criticising this policy as a form of harming aspiration. As if, if you can’t afford private education, your kids will suffer in comprehensives. |  | | |
| VAT on Private School on 15:39 - Jun 13 with 9523 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| VAT on Private School on 15:32 - Jun 13 by MattinLondon |
There won’t be a mass forced exodus from private to comprehensive schooling.
What I find offensive is Tory MPs criticising this policy as a form of harming aspiration. As if, if you can’t afford private education, your kids will suffer in comprehensives. |
Yeah this - it’s the opposite of aspirational, it still drives the class divide. In many industries you already have a foot in the door with the right school on your CV (even better if your uncle plays golf with the right people). A huge number of execs are privately educated, the proportion of which in no way represents the wider country. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 15:50 - Jun 13 with 9457 views | DJR |
| VAT on Private School on 15:09 - Jun 13 by homer_123 |
A wider but related question [more a stream of thoughts on reflection].
Lots of talk of 'trimming fat' in this thread that private schools will need to do to keep competitive. One of which might be reducing wages.
Though, surely, we accept that within the UK teachers are both underpaid and utterly disrespected now as a profession (sadly).
Don't know about anyone else but Education in this Country needs a huge investment, not least in wages to encourage people to come to the profession in the first instance. Sure, it's a more vocational career than others but that doesn't mean people should be underpaid. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 15:18]
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A consequence of this that I haven't heard mentioned is some private or public schools opting out of the Teachers' Pension Scheme.
Some already do, but this would save employers' contributions, and enable wages to be cut without affecting take home pay.
But depriving employees of pensions is not a particularly welcome outcome.
As it is, I do find it surprising that this is the one battle Starmer has chosen to wage. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 16:23]
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| VAT on Private School on 15:52 - Jun 13 with 9437 views | itfc48 |
This policy will hurt the parents who scrimp and save to get their kids into private school and won't effect the higher earners.
Unless more opportunities are given to state school kids this policy will effectively have the same effect as FFP by maintaining the status quo and punishing those trying to go up a level in society.
Personally I've no problem with private schools being exempt from VAT as they are non profits. If they were privately owned it would be a completely different story. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 15:56 - Jun 13 with 9404 views | grow_our_own |
"mass migration to the state sector"..."huge amount of pressure on the state system"
554k kids go to private school in the UK (~6% of pupils). If say 10% can no longer afford it, that's 55k. There are 24k non-private schools in the UK. That's just over two kids per school. No mass migration, no huge pressure. Don't believe everything the ISC (private school lobby) and the right-wing press say.
What's more of a scandal is why these private companies (in all but name) still won't pay corporation tax, capital gains tax, and business rates. They aren't a public good, and contribute to us being near bottom of international social-mobility rankings. I'm not in favour of banning them like some countries do, as that's illiberal, but let's tax them properly like the private enterprises they are and pump that money into the state sector and levelling life chances. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 16:05]
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| VAT on Private School on 16:00 - Jun 13 with 9366 views | Swansea_Blue |
| VAT on Private School on 15:09 - Jun 13 by homer_123 |
A wider but related question [more a stream of thoughts on reflection].
Lots of talk of 'trimming fat' in this thread that private schools will need to do to keep competitive. One of which might be reducing wages.
Though, surely, we accept that within the UK teachers are both underpaid and utterly disrespected now as a profession (sadly).
Don't know about anyone else but Education in this Country needs a huge investment, not least in wages to encourage people to come to the profession in the first instance. Sure, it's a more vocational career than others but that doesn't mean people should be underpaid. [Post edited 13 Jun 2024 15:18]
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I think private school teachers on average tend to earn a little bit more than state school teachers, but it's not easy to compare as private schools aren't required don't publicise salaries. I don't think it's much of a difference though.
You're right - this shouldn't be about a race to the bottom.
And presumably there's a sliding scale of how wealthy private schools are, from small local faith schools at one end through to the famous wangers at the likes of Winchester College and Eton. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 16:02 - Jun 13 with 9366 views | Zx1988 |
| VAT on Private School on 15:52 - Jun 13 by itfc48 |
This policy will hurt the parents who scrimp and save to get their kids into private school and won't effect the higher earners.
Unless more opportunities are given to state school kids this policy will effectively have the same effect as FFP by maintaining the status quo and punishing those trying to go up a level in society.
Personally I've no problem with private schools being exempt from VAT as they are non profits. If they were privately owned it would be a completely different story. |
It won't hurt them in the slightest.
If you're sending your child to private school at £15k per annum, but take them out of private school because you can't afford the increase to £18k per annum, you've suddenly got a spare £15k lying around.
You could buy a heck of a lot of private tutoring for £15k p/a. | |
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| VAT on Private School on 16:17 - Jun 13 with 9311 views | MattinLondon |
| VAT on Private School on 15:52 - Jun 13 by itfc48 |
This policy will hurt the parents who scrimp and save to get their kids into private school and won't effect the higher earners.
Unless more opportunities are given to state school kids this policy will effectively have the same effect as FFP by maintaining the status quo and punishing those trying to go up a level in society.
Personally I've no problem with private schools being exempt from VAT as they are non profits. If they were privately owned it would be a completely different story. |
Sending kids to private school is a life choice and so their scrimping and saving is down to them. No real sympathy at all. | | | |
| VAT on Private School on 16:23 - Jun 13 with 9252 views | DanTheMan |
| VAT on Private School on 14:09 - Jun 13 by lowhouseblue |
perhaps the schools could cut their costs and absorb the vat? i'm sure they will if demand looks like dropping off. |
All of them saying that they'll have to raise prices as there's nothing else they can do.
Meanwhile, the public sector has been cut to the bone in the last decade under the guise of "efficiency savings". Don't see why these well-run private sector enterprises cannot do the same. |  |
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| VAT on Private School on 16:28 - Jun 13 with 9222 views | StokieBlue |
| VAT on Private School on 16:23 - Jun 13 by DanTheMan |
All of them saying that they'll have to raise prices as there's nothing else they can do.
Meanwhile, the public sector has been cut to the bone in the last decade under the guise of "efficiency savings". Don't see why these well-run private sector enterprises cannot do the same. |
One needs a minimum amount of money to keep the Chablis and Saint-Émilion well stocked.
SB
[Post edited 13 Jun 2024 16:37]
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