| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. 17:46 - Jul 18 with 15098 views | Mercian |
So they jail five environment protestors for 4 and 5 years for a protest that disrupted motorway traffic. Rapists, violent muggers and those who commit GBH with intent get shorter sentences. Way to go.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2024 17:56]
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| I expect that most people.... on 21:29 - Jul 18 with 1445 views | GlasgowBlue |
| I expect that most people.... on 21:25 - Jul 18 by tcblue |
Perhaps a little. But it did cause pretty big disruptions here - I don't think there's much difference between the two, you can get to hospitals without using the M25, too |
Scenario 1. The Queen's funeral. Advance notice given to all emergency services of the chosen route and alternative routes planned in advance.
Scenario 2. Emergency services on route to heart attack victim. Protesters lay down in the road without any notice and block the traffic. Ambulance can't go forward or reverse due to gridlock.
It's really not that hard to understand. |  |
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| I expect that most people.... on 21:39 - Jul 18 with 1402 views | jimmyvet |
| I expect that most people.... on 21:29 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Scenario 1. The Queen's funeral. Advance notice given to all emergency services of the chosen route and alternative routes planned in advance.
Scenario 2. Emergency services on route to heart attack victim. Protesters lay down in the road without any notice and block the traffic. Ambulance can't go forward or reverse due to gridlock.
It's really not that hard to understand. |
For me as a huge advocate of environmental change who takes real action in my personal and professional life to make a difference, IIMO these groups just set the cause back by disrupting the lives of ordinary people who absolutely find them odious, patronising idiots. We need to educate and persuade ordinary people to make changes to their lives and also keep corporate entities to continue on the same path. These morons just undo IMO so much great work that has and is being done. It turns ordinary hard working people off and then makes the hard work many do so much harder. We all have opinions and I would prefer to make a real difference by actions not by disrupting ordinary people’s lives in a fanatical way. |  | | |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:41 - Jul 18 with 1399 views | Swansea_Blue |
I despair. Why wouldn’t anyone want more progress to reduce the impacts of climate change, to try to limit the extent of extreme weather events and the increasing deaths and damage during heatwaves and floods, to have better insulated homes that are more comfortable to live in and waste less energy/money, have cleaner air to breath for ourselves, kids and their kids?
When our governments slow up on the required progress, these campaigners that try to hold them to account and highlight the problems are doing so for all our benefits. They deserve medals, not whataboutery, pedantics and scorn. |  |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:44 - Jul 18 with 1383 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:41 - Jul 18 by Swansea_Blue |
I despair. Why wouldn’t anyone want more progress to reduce the impacts of climate change, to try to limit the extent of extreme weather events and the increasing deaths and damage during heatwaves and floods, to have better insulated homes that are more comfortable to live in and waste less energy/money, have cleaner air to breath for ourselves, kids and their kids?
When our governments slow up on the required progress, these campaigners that try to hold them to account and highlight the problems are doing so for all our benefits. They deserve medals, not whataboutery, pedantics and scorn. |
Did you know that Roger Hallam, one of those jailed today, was expelled by Extinction rebellion for being a crank. His actions aren't helping the cause in the slightest. | |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:47 - Jul 18 with 1379 views | Swansea_Blue |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:44 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Did you know that Roger Hallam, one of those jailed today, was expelled by Extinction rebellion for being a crank. His actions aren't helping the cause in the slightest. |
Couldn’t care less. It’s bigger than that. | |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:55 - Jul 18 with 1342 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:41 - Jul 18 by Swansea_Blue |
I despair. Why wouldn’t anyone want more progress to reduce the impacts of climate change, to try to limit the extent of extreme weather events and the increasing deaths and damage during heatwaves and floods, to have better insulated homes that are more comfortable to live in and waste less energy/money, have cleaner air to breath for ourselves, kids and their kids?
When our governments slow up on the required progress, these campaigners that try to hold them to account and highlight the problems are doing so for all our benefits. They deserve medals, not whataboutery, pedantics and scorn. |
Quite. But most of those commenting are old enough that climate change won't really affect them, so they don't care. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:55 - Jul 18 with 1336 views | Mercian |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:27 - Jul 18 by Crawfordsboot |
So you accept the principle and it’s just the length of the sentence that’s up for discussion? |
Yes. The person who laid on the pitch should have been asked to move. If he refused he should have been arrested. He should then have either been given a police caution or community service by a magistrate. The person who planted the bomb should have been given a life sentence with the tariff depending on whether or not it exploded. Any deaths caused should and would result in a whole life term. If the protestors in today's judgement had smashed the windows of cars and attacked the police, IE were violent than a 5 year term would have been appropriate but they were not. There are very good reasons why protests are not allowed on motorways being the disruption it causes and more importantly the very real danger of harm to both themselves and to motorists. IMO the sentence for this should have been 6 months to a year imprisonment suspended. [Post edited 18 Jul 2024 22:02]
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:56 - Jul 18 with 1325 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:47 - Jul 18 by Swansea_Blue |
Couldn’t care less. It’s bigger than that. |
Protest over progress it is then. | |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 22:14 - Jul 18 with 1251 views | NthQldITFC |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:02 - Jul 18 by redrickstuhaart |
Looks like legal judgment to me. If he let them persuade a jury with legally irrelevant stuff, appeal would doubtless follow. So dangerous to base a view on cherry picked snippets. |
Oh, I'm sure it's all nice and proper and properly within the scope for interpretation that the law, such as it is, would allow.
It's still stupid though, and he's still a wanchor to make those comments.
In an alternative, and more sensible, legal framework he'd be had up for obstructing necessary works to safeguard human rights and the future of the entire ecosystem upon which the human race depends.
Far more dangerous to ignore massive, impending realities and hide behind an idiotic, business-as-usual-serving shyte system. |  |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 22:16 - Jul 18 with 1246 views | Zx1988 |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 20:19 - Jul 18 by Buhrer |
It's f ucking disgusting.
Judge Hehir ruled that climate issues were ‘irrelevant and inadmissible’, dismissing them as mere ‘political opinion and belief’. Although the legislation includes a defence of ‘reasonable excuse’ and despite the prosecution acknowledging the imminent catastrophic and irreversible harm from burning fossil fuels, the judge prevented the jury from considering whether the defendants had a reasonable excuse and directed them to ignore any evidence about the climate crisis.
When the defendants insisted on honouring their oaths to tell the jury the whole truth about their actions and refused to leave the witness box until they had done so, the judge repeatedly had them arrested and jailed throughout the trial.
https://juststopoil.org/2024/07/18/whole-truth-five-sentenced-to-4-5-years-at-so |
It's downright Orwellian/Stalinist.
Denying the protesters the right to attempt to lean upon one of the defences enshrined within the legislation, arresting them for attempting to tell the truth, and then arresting supporters outside the court for holding signs reminding jurors of their right to acquit according to conscience (as is also engraved on a marble plaque within the Old Bailey...).
It's almost as if the outcome of these show trials is pre-determined before a word has even been uttered in court. | |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 22:42 - Jul 18 with 1211 views | redrickstuhaart |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 22:16 - Jul 18 by Zx1988 |
It's downright Orwellian/Stalinist.
Denying the protesters the right to attempt to lean upon one of the defences enshrined within the legislation, arresting them for attempting to tell the truth, and then arresting supporters outside the court for holding signs reminding jurors of their right to acquit according to conscience (as is also engraved on a marble plaque within the Old Bailey...).
It's almost as if the outcome of these show trials is pre-determined before a word has even been uttered in court. |
I think people should read and undwrstand in full before reaching these sorts of conclusions. Criminal judges must not allow legally superfuous evidence. Crucially that cuts both ways. See, for instance, evidence about a rape victim's previous relationships. It has to be applied consistently and strictly.
If he denied a genuinely applicable piece of evidence a succesful appeal will follow. | | | |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 06:48 - Jul 19 with 1074 views | jimmyvet |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 22:42 - Jul 18 by redrickstuhaart |
I think people should read and undwrstand in full before reaching these sorts of conclusions. Criminal judges must not allow legally superfuous evidence. Crucially that cuts both ways. See, for instance, evidence about a rape victim's previous relationships. It has to be applied consistently and strictly.
If he denied a genuinely applicable piece of evidence a succesful appeal will follow. |
Yes but that doesn’t fit the narrative of a few on here. It’s their way, their view that counts only and if you disagree the personal attacks start with you being thick, stupid, illiterate and the list goes on. My position remains clear these criminals send the cause backwards and do nothing to help the case for us to achieve on environmental objectives. I would have a lot more respect for them if they spent the day and night making a noise outside the Chinese, Indian, US, Japanese and Russian embassies identifying the really massive polluters. All these experts on here just want to make the UK poorer and make us access our energy from the worlds most odious dictatorship’s at great environmental cost. The UK has been leading the way in recent years and has a fantastic environmental record compared to virtually every other nation globally and we should be proud of that and continue on our journey without the need for these extremists ruining the daily life of so many working class people. | | | |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:06 - Jul 19 with 1060 views | Mercian |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 06:48 - Jul 19 by jimmyvet |
Yes but that doesn’t fit the narrative of a few on here. It’s their way, their view that counts only and if you disagree the personal attacks start with you being thick, stupid, illiterate and the list goes on. My position remains clear these criminals send the cause backwards and do nothing to help the case for us to achieve on environmental objectives. I would have a lot more respect for them if they spent the day and night making a noise outside the Chinese, Indian, US, Japanese and Russian embassies identifying the really massive polluters. All these experts on here just want to make the UK poorer and make us access our energy from the worlds most odious dictatorship’s at great environmental cost. The UK has been leading the way in recent years and has a fantastic environmental record compared to virtually every other nation globally and we should be proud of that and continue on our journey without the need for these extremists ruining the daily life of so many working class people. |
India produces 8 times the CO2 that The UK does but to say they are worse than us is cherry picking at is finest when you bare in mind that India has close to 20 times the population. That is like when Trump points to an election map of The USA and claims he won because there is more red than blue on the map. Most of that red is desert, prairie, mountains or tundra. Your argument is flawed. [Post edited 19 Jul 2024 7:12]
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:11 - Jul 19 with 1044 views | jimmyvet |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:06 - Jul 19 by Mercian |
India produces 8 times the CO2 that The UK does but to say they are worse than us is cherry picking at is finest when you bare in mind that India has close to 20 times the population. That is like when Trump points to an election map of The USA and claims he won because there is more red than blue on the map. Most of that red is desert, prairie, mountains or tundra. Your argument is flawed. [Post edited 19 Jul 2024 7:12]
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I don’t intend to have a debate on this as we disagree and that’s fine. The uk is a world leader in climate change and we have made giant strides and continue to do so. And I for one will continue to play my part personally and professionally and sleep very well at night knowing this. You can rant all you like on a football forum but I would politely suggest actions are a lot more effective than posting on here. | | | |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:14 - Jul 19 with 1039 views | Mercian |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:11 - Jul 19 by jimmyvet |
I don’t intend to have a debate on this as we disagree and that’s fine. The uk is a world leader in climate change and we have made giant strides and continue to do so. And I for one will continue to play my part personally and professionally and sleep very well at night knowing this. You can rant all you like on a football forum but I would politely suggest actions are a lot more effective than posting on here. |
If you do not intend to debate why are you posting cherry picked information and hope people will read it and respond? [Post edited 19 Jul 2024 7:21]
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| I expect that most people.... on 07:22 - Jul 19 with 1014 views | noggin |
| I expect that most people.... on 20:53 - Jul 18 by tcblue |
Alternative heart attack arrangements?
It wasn't just missed meetings! |
Viz top tips...Just delay your chest pains until the next day. |  |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:32 - Jul 19 with 1004 views | Mercian |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:11 - Jul 19 by jimmyvet |
I don’t intend to have a debate on this as we disagree and that’s fine. The uk is a world leader in climate change and we have made giant strides and continue to do so. And I for one will continue to play my part personally and professionally and sleep very well at night knowing this. You can rant all you like on a football forum but I would politely suggest actions are a lot more effective than posting on here. |
Yes this is a football forum but the administrators of this site decided to have a general section to discuss topics such as this. You do not have to post on here. I have also made no personal attacks. You have though albeit cleverly veiled. Suggesting posters such as my self have problems understanding, doesn't fit the narrative of the few who are actually the majority and saying the people who were sentenced are despised by the majority of the public when that is clearly not the case. [Post edited 19 Jul 2024 7:33]
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:41 - Jul 19 with 986 views | Crawfordsboot |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:55 - Jul 18 by Mercian |
Yes. The person who laid on the pitch should have been asked to move. If he refused he should have been arrested. He should then have either been given a police caution or community service by a magistrate. The person who planted the bomb should have been given a life sentence with the tariff depending on whether or not it exploded. Any deaths caused should and would result in a whole life term. If the protestors in today's judgement had smashed the windows of cars and attacked the police, IE were violent than a 5 year term would have been appropriate but they were not. There are very good reasons why protests are not allowed on motorways being the disruption it causes and more importantly the very real danger of harm to both themselves and to motorists. IMO the sentence for this should have been 6 months to a year imprisonment suspended. [Post edited 18 Jul 2024 22:02]
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Fair enough - yours is a much more reasoned and rational position than many on here. |  | | |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:52 - Jul 19 with 966 views | CoachRob |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:32 - Jul 19 by Mercian |
Yes this is a football forum but the administrators of this site decided to have a general section to discuss topics such as this. You do not have to post on here. I have also made no personal attacks. You have though albeit cleverly veiled. Suggesting posters such as my self have problems understanding, doesn't fit the narrative of the few who are actually the majority and saying the people who were sentenced are despised by the majority of the public when that is clearly not the case. [Post edited 19 Jul 2024 7:33]
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That poster could have linked to the recent CCC report on the UK's progress on mitigation but that wouldn't suit the narrative. There are some fairly standard climate change denier points throughout this thread so thanks for pointing out the cherry picking. I'll add a distrust of experts and a claim to understand the science better than those experts.
https://www.theccc.org.uk/publication/progress-in-reducing-emissions-2024-report |  | | |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:53 - Jul 19 with 963 views | NthQldITFC |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 06:48 - Jul 19 by jimmyvet |
Yes but that doesn’t fit the narrative of a few on here. It’s their way, their view that counts only and if you disagree the personal attacks start with you being thick, stupid, illiterate and the list goes on. My position remains clear these criminals send the cause backwards and do nothing to help the case for us to achieve on environmental objectives. I would have a lot more respect for them if they spent the day and night making a noise outside the Chinese, Indian, US, Japanese and Russian embassies identifying the really massive polluters. All these experts on here just want to make the UK poorer and make us access our energy from the worlds most odious dictatorship’s at great environmental cost. The UK has been leading the way in recent years and has a fantastic environmental record compared to virtually every other nation globally and we should be proud of that and continue on our journey without the need for these extremists ruining the daily life of so many working class people. |
You make some fair points, and I know that my responses tend to be rabidly emotional on this issue.
I think my frustration essentially stems from the view that so many people, people who say that they understand and they care and they do their bit, look upon climate change as another issue which has to be dealt with and balanced alongside things like existing legal systems, growth, international competition and consumer convenience in their daily life.
Listen to the science, understand the relevance and status of positive feedback loops in a number of large subsystems and tipping points, listen to people like Guterres and Attenborough, realise what little time and hope we have, and how every opportunity is precious for the world as a whole and that artificial individual countries are irrelevant to our children's futures. It's when you fully appreciate the scale of the problem outside of the artificial constraints of everything that society is now that you realise that we cannot be limited in our actions by those false constraints.
edit:
For clarity, I'm not advocating anarchy, what I'm saying is that we need to put mitigating climate change at the top of all considerations when it comes to policy, and that rapid changes to the way 'things are done' must be made without the usual bullsh!t of humming and hahing and behind the scenes stitch ups to maintain the status quo. We need to go as close to breaking the system (worldwide) as we can in order to make maximum change as quickly as possible, and locking up people who have upset that system is entirely the wrong thing to do. [Post edited 19 Jul 2024 8:01]
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:55 - Jul 19 with 975 views | blueasfook |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:55 - Jul 18 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Quite. But most of those commenting are old enough that climate change won't really affect them, so they don't care. |
What a silly comment. Many of us "old enough" posters have children so do care that they'll have a decent world to enjoy. |  |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 08:08 - Jul 19 with 937 views | Mercian |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:55 - Jul 19 by blueasfook |
What a silly comment. Many of us "old enough" posters have children so do care that they'll have a decent world to enjoy. |
Most if any posters here not caring is wrong but there are people in positions of power who do not care. One example is Sunak who was criticising no drive zones in London in the hope that he would get votes and nothing more. In the short term it worked as The Tories won the bi election they were not expected to in Harrow or Uxbridge, I am not sure which, somewhere in North-West London. Big corporations do not care as they are not people. The board members could all be good caring people but at the end of they day they do what benefits the company no matter what. [Post edited 19 Jul 2024 8:09]
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 08:18 - Jul 19 with 913 views | GlasgowBlue |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 21:56 - Jul 18 by GlasgowBlue |
Protest over progress it is then. |
What is it about actually engaging with people and governments with the aim of averting the climate catastrophe, rather than alienating the people we need on side to do this and achieving fcuk all do you object to Clapham and Big Al? | |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 09:09 - Jul 19 with 856 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 06:48 - Jul 19 by jimmyvet |
Yes but that doesn’t fit the narrative of a few on here. It’s their way, their view that counts only and if you disagree the personal attacks start with you being thick, stupid, illiterate and the list goes on. My position remains clear these criminals send the cause backwards and do nothing to help the case for us to achieve on environmental objectives. I would have a lot more respect for them if they spent the day and night making a noise outside the Chinese, Indian, US, Japanese and Russian embassies identifying the really massive polluters. All these experts on here just want to make the UK poorer and make us access our energy from the worlds most odious dictatorship’s at great environmental cost. The UK has been leading the way in recent years and has a fantastic environmental record compared to virtually every other nation globally and we should be proud of that and continue on our journey without the need for these extremists ruining the daily life of so many working class people. |
How do they "send the cause backwards"? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 09:12 - Jul 19 with 854 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The government want to stop prison overcrowding. on 07:55 - Jul 19 by blueasfook |
What a silly comment. Many of us "old enough" posters have children so do care that they'll have a decent world to enjoy. |
Some do, obviously, and many do something about it. Quite a lot moan about the inconvenience of protest and do nothing, even if they have children. I stand by my comment. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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