| Labour Party and Kier Starmer 07:25 - Sep 3 with 47431 views | onceablue |
I just woke up from a nightmare where Kier Starmer and his Girlfriend Rachael Reeves were in charge of the country
Oh f@ck
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 07:20 - Sep 6 with 3177 views | bluejacko |
Take 2/3 hundred pound off that for wfa,£160 rise in fuel bills god knows how much council tax will rise by,doesn’t leave much for you be well off on does it? | | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 07:44 - Sep 6 with 3120 views | Benters |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:48 - Sep 5 by mrshallisfit |
Whereas, there are still a few steak and chips, gammon head Tories here too. |
I am a Curry Thursday sort of chap myself. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 07:45 - Sep 6 with 3115 views | Benters |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 07:20 - Sep 6 by bluejacko |
Take 2/3 hundred pound off that for wfa,£160 rise in fuel bills god knows how much council tax will rise by,doesn’t leave much for you be well off on does it? |
This. | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 08:04 - Sep 6 with 3079 views | DanTheMan |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 07:45 - Sep 6 by Benters |
This. |
Genuine question.
Why do pensioners have to be constantly protected whilst the workers have been put through the wringer since the 2008 financial crash?
I know there are genuinely pensioners who do not have much money that require looking after and the state should be providing for them.
At the same time, I see people like my step-father, who has more money than he knows what to do with, moaning he won't be getting the winter fuel allowance. He has enough money to happily stick £20k into his ISA every year.
There's a good run down here from the resolution foundation on all of this - https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/pensioner-progress/ |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 08:04 - Sep 6 with 3074 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 07:20 - Sep 6 by bluejacko |
Take 2/3 hundred pound off that for wfa,£160 rise in fuel bills god knows how much council tax will rise by,doesn’t leave much for you be well off on does it? |
Then point out that £400 is the figure for the new state pension and that 75% of pensioners are on the old system, basic state pension, which is significantly lower. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 08:29 - Sep 6 with 3020 views | WeWereZombies |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 07:20 - Sep 6 by bluejacko |
Take 2/3 hundred pound off that for wfa,£160 rise in fuel bills god knows how much council tax will rise by,doesn’t leave much for you be well off on does it? |
Which means that quite a few pensioners should be applying for pension credit and other benefits in the coming year. Hopefully this will lead to a fairer and more apposite pension system but there is no doubt that it will be a faff for some. The intricacies of this have begun to be discussed elsewhere in the thread. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:52 - Sep 6 with 2930 views | Leaky |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 08:04 - Sep 6 by DanTheMan |
Genuine question.
Why do pensioners have to be constantly protected whilst the workers have been put through the wringer since the 2008 financial crash?
I know there are genuinely pensioners who do not have much money that require looking after and the state should be providing for them.
At the same time, I see people like my step-father, who has more money than he knows what to do with, moaning he won't be getting the winter fuel allowance. He has enough money to happily stick £20k into his ISA every year.
There's a good run down here from the resolution foundation on all of this - https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/pensioner-progress/ |
If I was in position to put £20k a year into an ISA I think rather blow the lot and enjoy my remaining years. As neve you know when time is up a Step Son may cop the lot |  | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:09 - Sep 6 with 2881 views | DanTheMan |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:52 - Sep 6 by Leaky |
If I was in position to put £20k a year into an ISA I think rather blow the lot and enjoy my remaining years. As neve you know when time is up a Step Son may cop the lot |
Ha, I won't be seeing a penny of that, he has his own children. My nieces might though. And I personally agree, he should be enjoying his retirement but he honestly doesn't really do a lot other than gardening and doing parish council things. I don't think he'd know what to spend it on.
Still, my point is he really does not need additional money. He has plenty. | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:12 - Sep 6 with 2853 views | bluejacko |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 08:29 - Sep 6 by WeWereZombies |
Which means that quite a few pensioners should be applying for pension credit and other benefits in the coming year. Hopefully this will lead to a fairer and more apposite pension system but there is no doubt that it will be a faff for some. The intricacies of this have begun to be discussed elsewhere in the thread. |
Which will then cost more than actually paying the benefit in the first place! Take into account fiscal drag and more pensioners will get dragged into paying tax over time so any ‘increase’ will soon disappear. | | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 13:17 - Sep 6 with 2735 views | Benters |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 08:04 - Sep 6 by DanTheMan |
Genuine question.
Why do pensioners have to be constantly protected whilst the workers have been put through the wringer since the 2008 financial crash?
I know there are genuinely pensioners who do not have much money that require looking after and the state should be providing for them.
At the same time, I see people like my step-father, who has more money than he knows what to do with, moaning he won't be getting the winter fuel allowance. He has enough money to happily stick £20k into his ISA every year.
There's a good run down here from the resolution foundation on all of this - https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/pensioner-progress/ |
Well yes there is always a few who are minted and fair play to them I say.But there are always a lot who do struggle with money etc.
I guess your dear old dad could buy you a box at Portman Road,let you enjoy his wealth👍 | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 13:21 - Sep 6 with 2723 views | hype313 |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:09 - Sep 6 by DanTheMan |
Ha, I won't be seeing a penny of that, he has his own children. My nieces might though. And I personally agree, he should be enjoying his retirement but he honestly doesn't really do a lot other than gardening and doing parish council things. I don't think he'd know what to spend it on.
Still, my point is he really does not need additional money. He has plenty. |
Surprised we don't follow Australia and means test. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 14:31 - Sep 6 with 2610 views | DanTheMan |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 13:17 - Sep 6 by Benters |
Well yes there is always a few who are minted and fair play to them I say.But there are always a lot who do struggle with money etc.
I guess your dear old dad could buy you a box at Portman Road,let you enjoy his wealth👍 |
I have no issues with him enjoying what he has, and I don't want his money. He didn't raise me, he's just with my mum. I guess my mum's partner is a better term. I'd take the box though if he decided on a very nice birthday present!
I have no issues with the ones struggling getting it. | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:46 - Sep 7 with 2442 views | DJR |
This from the Commons in 2014 shows that Reeves has had the winter fuel payment in her sight for some time, and indicates to me that the so-called £22 billion black hole is a pretext. It also explains the alacrity with which it was announced, and indicates that she was planning to do this before the election.
"We are the party who have said that we would cut the winter fuel allowance for the richest pensioners.
We're the party that said we would means-test that benefit to save money, something which on the other side of the house you haven't supported.
So the reality is we're the party who are willing to take tough decisions.”
Rachel Reeves does have form though.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/12/labour-benefits-tories-labour-r
https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/anger-after-reeves-tells-benefit-claimants
Incidentally, Bob Ellard, whose resignation is mentioned in the second link, was a member of my CLP. [Post edited 7 Sep 2024 10:25]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:10 - Sep 7 with 2411 views | DJR |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 08:29 - Sep 6 by WeWereZombies |
Which means that quite a few pensioners should be applying for pension credit and other benefits in the coming year. Hopefully this will lead to a fairer and more apposite pension system but there is no doubt that it will be a faff for some. The intricacies of this have begun to be discussed elsewhere in the thread. |
A single person is only eligible for pension credit if their annual income is below £11,362. And a couple are only eligible if their joint income is below £17,313.40
In my view, neither figure is the right cut off given someone on the national minimum wage working 40 hours week has an annual income of £23,795.20.
Indeed, it is not clear to me how, say, a single pensioner not much above £11,362 can survive as it is, without the loss of £300 further compounding things.
And this change will have a disproportionate effect on those living in the colder, northern parts of the UK.
In my view, means testing should not be happening if it cannot be done fairly. And I speak as someone whose parents in law are just above the pension credit limit, and struggle to survive without hand-outs from us, especially when things like repairs or replacements are necessary.
And even pension credit itself is not a panacea because for a single person it takes their income up to a measly £11,362, although it can lead to other financial support. [Post edited 7 Sep 2024 10:16]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:11 - Sep 7 with 2350 views | mutters |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 08:04 - Sep 6 by DanTheMan |
Genuine question.
Why do pensioners have to be constantly protected whilst the workers have been put through the wringer since the 2008 financial crash?
I know there are genuinely pensioners who do not have much money that require looking after and the state should be providing for them.
At the same time, I see people like my step-father, who has more money than he knows what to do with, moaning he won't be getting the winter fuel allowance. He has enough money to happily stick £20k into his ISA every year.
There's a good run down here from the resolution foundation on all of this - https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/pensioner-progress/ |
I suspect part of it is a person's earning capacity. Pensioners have fewer opportunities to earn extra income for various reasons.
Most are unlike your stepfather and do not have that amount of spare cash. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:25 - Sep 7 with 2321 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:10 - Sep 7 by DJR |
A single person is only eligible for pension credit if their annual income is below £11,362. And a couple are only eligible if their joint income is below £17,313.40
In my view, neither figure is the right cut off given someone on the national minimum wage working 40 hours week has an annual income of £23,795.20.
Indeed, it is not clear to me how, say, a single pensioner not much above £11,362 can survive as it is, without the loss of £300 further compounding things.
And this change will have a disproportionate effect on those living in the colder, northern parts of the UK.
In my view, means testing should not be happening if it cannot be done fairly. And I speak as someone whose parents in law are just above the pension credit limit, and struggle to survive without hand-outs from us, especially when things like repairs or replacements are necessary.
And even pension credit itself is not a panacea because for a single person it takes their income up to a measly £11,362, although it can lead to other financial support. [Post edited 7 Sep 2024 10:16]
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Is it usual for a significant chunk of a wage to go on tax, pensions, and a mortgage? Would those be the same for a pensioner? Would a pensioner who does not own their home be entitled to some form of housing support?
There is no doubt there is a lot of inequality in this country and those in greatest need deserve to be looked after properly. Just asking to get a clearer picture of whether those stats you quote are completely comparable. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:52 - Sep 7 with 2293 views | DJR |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:25 - Sep 7 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Is it usual for a significant chunk of a wage to go on tax, pensions, and a mortgage? Would those be the same for a pensioner? Would a pensioner who does not own their home be entitled to some form of housing support?
There is no doubt there is a lot of inequality in this country and those in greatest need deserve to be looked after properly. Just asking to get a clearer picture of whether those stats you quote are completely comparable. |
I can only go by my parents in law but they only had the state pension and owned their own home (with virtually no equity due equity release to help them get by) but they were just over the pension credit limit and got no help. This meant that, for example, that we and my wife's sister had to pay something like £5,000 to install a stair lift. We also gave them an amount annually to tide them over, but had to pay additional amounts if, say, they needed a washing machine.
I might add that they didn't go on holiday, and were always very concerned about the cost of heating their house, so to think that they would lose £300 is appalling.
As it is, my father in law died last year, and my mother-in-law is currently in hospital, with it looking likely that she will have to move into her daughter's home when released because she will need care, so I suppose the matter is now academic but there must be many in their position. Indeed, the existence of equity release suggests there are many pensioners who struggle to get by.
From my point of view, Rachel Maskell put it best.
“We have to go back to why Gordon Brown introduced this. He was emphatic that he didn’t want people to go cold over winter. We absolutely should uphold those values."
[Post edited 7 Sep 2024 12:03]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:58 - Sep 7 with 2271 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:52 - Sep 7 by DJR |
I can only go by my parents in law but they only had the state pension and owned their own home (with virtually no equity due equity release to help them get by) but they were just over the pension credit limit and got no help. This meant that, for example, that we and my wife's sister had to pay something like £5,000 to install a stair lift. We also gave them an amount annually to tide them over, but had to pay additional amounts if, say, they needed a washing machine.
I might add that they didn't go on holiday, and were always very concerned about the cost of heating their house, so to think that they would lose £300 is appalling.
As it is, my father in law died last year, and my mother-in-law is currently in hospital, with it looking likely that she will have to move into her daughter's home when released because she will need care, so I suppose the matter is now academic but there must be many in their position. Indeed, the existence of equity release suggests there are many pensioners who struggle to get by.
From my point of view, Rachel Maskell put it best.
“We have to go back to why Gordon Brown introduced this. He was emphatic that he didn’t want people to go cold over winter. We absolutely should uphold those values."
[Post edited 7 Sep 2024 12:03]
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Very sorry to hear that. As I say, I am sure there are plenty of cases where the means available are not enough and that really shouldn't be the case in a country as rich as ours.
Is this a case where the allowance would be removed rather than still be available through means testing though? | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:02 - Sep 7 with 2255 views | DJR |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:58 - Sep 7 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Very sorry to hear that. As I say, I am sure there are plenty of cases where the means available are not enough and that really shouldn't be the case in a country as rich as ours.
Is this a case where the allowance would be removed rather than still be available through means testing though? |
They would have lost the winter fuel allowance, and my mother in law will do too, but if she is living in her daughter's house that is now irrelevant. | | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 20:59 - Sep 7 with 2096 views | DJR |
Whilst it won't succeed, the respected former pensions minister Ros Altmann, a crossbench peer, has tabled a “fatal” parliamentary motion to kill off the government’s controversial plan to limit winter fuel payments.
Altmann said claims by ministers that they were protecting the poorest pensioners were “simply not true”. She added: “I am just so flummoxed because I cannot believe that they believe what they are saying.”
While she agreed that better-off pensioners should not receive the payments, she said the way the government was limiting them only to those on pension credit would leave around 3 million poorer pensioners – particularly those just above the threshold for claiming the benefit – without badly needed help.
“As policy, it ranks as one of the worst decisions I have ever seen,” she said. “I will push it to a vote. The aim is to stop this and to get the Commons to think again.” [Post edited 7 Sep 2024 21:00]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:56 - Sep 8 with 1922 views | VanSaParody |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 07:53 - Sep 3 by onceablue |
Remember 66.3% of the people that voted in the general election did not vote for your beloved Party
So just to make that clear for you 66 people out of a hundred agree with me whereas 33 agree with you
The other person doesn’t give a sh@t |
You have to go back to 1918 (& 2001) to find a lower general election turnout
It's embarrassing to claim a landslide victory
It's like, let's say, your favourite team in blue, at 0-0, having 3 players sent off, handing the advantage to the red team who, as you'd then expect, go on to win the game |  | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:47 - Sep 8 with 1861 views | Whos_blue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:56 - Sep 8 by VanSaParody |
You have to go back to 1918 (& 2001) to find a lower general election turnout
It's embarrassing to claim a landslide victory
It's like, let's say, your favourite team in blue, at 0-0, having 3 players sent off, handing the advantage to the red team who, as you'd then expect, go on to win the game |
So do the red team take the win or do they say to the blue team "You had 3 players less than us. It wasn't a fair competition. Let's play it again".?
A win is a win.
The reds won. The blues lost. |  |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:59 - Sep 8 with 1832 views | DJR |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 08:04 - Sep 6 by DanTheMan |
Genuine question.
Why do pensioners have to be constantly protected whilst the workers have been put through the wringer since the 2008 financial crash?
I know there are genuinely pensioners who do not have much money that require looking after and the state should be providing for them.
At the same time, I see people like my step-father, who has more money than he knows what to do with, moaning he won't be getting the winter fuel allowance. He has enough money to happily stick £20k into his ISA every year.
There's a good run down here from the resolution foundation on all of this - https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/publications/pensioner-progress/ |
This from a report by the IFS earlier this year shows the position for pensioners is quite nuanced.
Average pensioner incomes have been increasing since the early 2000s, driven by increases in state pension and private pensions (and to lesser extent employment income). Up until around 2011, this growth was much faster than growth in average incomes for working-age adults (due in part to the large falls for working-age adults during the Great Recession). Since 2011, the recovery in employment income for working-age adults means that median pensioner and working-age incomes have grown at similar rates.
The trends for poor pensioners are quite different. Strong income growth throughout the 2000s meant falling relative poverty, down to 13% in 2011 from 25% as recently as 2002. But since 2011, the trends are much less favourable to poorer pensioners, with their incomes rising by only 5% between 2011 and 2022, and relative pensioner poverty rising to 16% by 2022. Poorer pensioners did not benefit from rising employment and private pension incomes that benefited middle-income people (of working-age or pensioners respectively). And increased state pension incomes – for lower-income pensioners – have been significantly offset by reduced eligibility for means-tested benefits. [Post edited 8 Sep 2024 12:04]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:15 - Sep 8 with 1807 views | VanSaParody |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 11:47 - Sep 8 by Whos_blue |
So do the red team take the win or do they say to the blue team "You had 3 players less than us. It wasn't a fair competition. Let's play it again".?
A win is a win.
The reds won. The blues lost. |
Absolutely take the win
But, let's say it finished 3 or 4 or even 5-0...
I wouldn't be crowing about the drubbing | | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:29 - Sep 8 with 1796 views | Whos_blue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:15 - Sep 8 by VanSaParody |
Absolutely take the win
But, let's say it finished 3 or 4 or even 5-0...
I wouldn't be crowing about the drubbing |
I've said before, I'm no labour apologist, but I can't say I've heard too much crowing about the result.
Plenty about how hard it's going to be before it gets better, but been fairly quiet about the size of the win.
The tories played their part in a low turn out too.
They'd run their race. Royally f@cked pretty much everything up and even their most loyal suporters couldn't get themselves motivated to go out and vote for them.
I guess we also need to consider the last election the tories did win and their 80 seat majority against Corbyn. I think Corbyn polled higher than Starmer (could be wrong), but we never hear the end of that defeat.
Labour have inherited a sh1tshow. No one is going to tidy that up over night.
Let's set some realistic time related expectations, then start to criticise.
I can't say I'm a fan of the winter fuel allowance cut, but can also see an irony in those who are affected the most probably voted in their masses for the tories, who in turn used that majority to destroy most of what they touched. But yeah, pandamic, Ukraine etc. Blah blah blah. | |
| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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