| Labour Party and Kier Starmer 07:25 - Sep 3 with 47399 views | onceablue |
I just woke up from a nightmare where Kier Starmer and his Girlfriend Rachael Reeves were in charge of the country
Oh f@ck
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:52 - Sep 9 with 3212 views | giant_stow |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:37 - Sep 9 by DanTheMan |
"when many trains these days can drive themselves."
Which trains are we talking about? The tube could be automated but we're talking billions of pounds of investment which doesn't seem worth it compared to just upping pay. These sorts of trains I imagine are a bit easier as they are in the a closed loop for the most part.
I imagine the investment needed for driverless trains elsewhere in the UK would be hundreds of billions, requiring upgrading a massive amount of track and signalling and then ongoing maintenance of more complicated infrastructure. All to save on a relatively small amount of driving costs.
The costs don't work. It's all good if you're doing something from scratch but when you've got to work with the stuff we've already got, it breaks down. |
The dlr has been going for decades and is driverless. I believe the no-longer so new Jubilee line trains are also capable of being driverless too. Then there's this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_train_systems
My point wasn't about the economics, where you may well have a point, but skill involved in each profession.
Personally, I've always had a big problem with the tube drivers specifically - they certainly don't need further pay increases. In my opinion, they hold poorer Londoners to ransom and the continually rising costs they cause make it so expensive, that many Londoners could never afford to use them. They represent a public sector elite that gives the wider union movement a bad name. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:57 - Sep 9 with 3189 views | giant_stow |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:41 - Sep 9 by The_Flashing_Smile |
As I posted earlier in the thread, the train driving course is 16 weeks.
Learning to drive a lorry usually takes between 7 and 12 weeks. |
https://www.gov.uk/become-lorry-bus-driver
"have a full car licence
be over 18 - but there are some exceptions
get a professional driving qualification called the Driver Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC)"
I believe you're not allowing for the above in your time frames. The roads are an open system with untold variables and actors. The trains are a closed system. | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 13:10 - Sep 9 with 3125 views | DanTheMan |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:52 - Sep 9 by giant_stow |
The dlr has been going for decades and is driverless. I believe the no-longer so new Jubilee line trains are also capable of being driverless too. Then there's this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_train_systems
My point wasn't about the economics, where you may well have a point, but skill involved in each profession.
Personally, I've always had a big problem with the tube drivers specifically - they certainly don't need further pay increases. In my opinion, they hold poorer Londoners to ransom and the continually rising costs they cause make it so expensive, that many Londoners could never afford to use them. They represent a public sector elite that gives the wider union movement a bad name. |
Sorry, I did miss the context.
What I would say is that the reason they can drive easily is that a lot of the ones listed on that page are very simple, much like the tube is. Just scrolling down there, most of them are airport transfers or inter-city, and not many have to deal with things like trees on the line, derailments, complex signalling, switching tracks etc. That's where a human is useful, even if 95% of the time it can be automated. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 13:17 - Sep 9 with 3096 views | Benters |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:25 - Sep 9 by giant_stow |
Well deduced sir - was it the use of the words 'must be' that helped?
Its a logical opinion though when you think about it, especially when many trains these days can drive themselves. |
Exactly right they don’t even need a fireman these days I’ve heard. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 13:38 - Sep 9 with 3036 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 12:57 - Sep 9 by giant_stow |
https://www.gov.uk/become-lorry-bus-driver
"have a full car licence
be over 18 - but there are some exceptions
get a professional driving qualification called the Driver Certificate of Professional Competence (CPC)"
I believe you're not allowing for the above in your time frames. The roads are an open system with untold variables and actors. The trains are a closed system. |
I imagine most train drivers also have a driving licence.
Regardless, the fact that it takes 16 weeks to learn to drive a train suggests it's a bit more than pressing a button and sitting back counting your cash. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 13:55 - Sep 9 with 2989 views | leitrimblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 13:38 - Sep 9 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I imagine most train drivers also have a driving licence.
Regardless, the fact that it takes 16 weeks to learn to drive a train suggests it's a bit more than pressing a button and sitting back counting your cash. |
Feck that. Sounds like waaay to much hard work and sacrifice. You know what the requirements are to be a Postman? |  | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 14:32 - Sep 9 with 2917 views | MattinLondon |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 13:55 - Sep 9 by leitrimblue |
Feck that. Sounds like waaay to much hard work and sacrifice. You know what the requirements are to be a Postman? |
Well Postman Pat can drive a car, fly a plane and helicopter and has a full boating license. If he’s the benchmark then it’s a very demanding job. |  | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 15:25 - Sep 9 with 2825 views | DJR |
You couldn't make it up!
This from the Guardian.
No 10 claims it wants 100% pension credit take-up - even though that would remove all savings from winter fuel payments cut.
And here is more from what was said at the Downing Street lobby briefing this morning about about the plan to means-test the winter fuel payments.
No 10 said applications for pension credit are up by more than 100% as a result of the government’s campaign to increase take-up. Around a third of pensioners eligible for pension credit (a benefit for low-income pensioners) do not claim, and the government is now actively trying to change this.
The spokesperson said the government wanted 100% of eligible people to claim pension credit – even though, if this were to happen, the £1.5bn saving from means-testing winter fuel payments would be wiped out by the extra cost of pension credit. Asked about this apparent contradiction, the spokesperson said “people ought to be receiving what they’re entitled to”. In a thread on social media this morning, ITV’s Anushka Asthana says the Institute for Fiscal Studies has confirmed 100% take-up would eliminate any savings.
"Only 63% of pensioners who qualify for Pension Credit actually apply for it (it’s not super easy plus maybe some feel stigma). Which means when it becomes the gateway for Winter Fuel Payments- almost 1m poor pensioners will miss out. Obvs take up of PC will rise.
The govt is actively encouraging more to sign up to Pension Credit and has included in its calculation of the savings from means testing WFP (£1.3bn and then £1.5bn a year) a 5% increase in take up of PC to 68% but that still leaves 32% not claiming and so missing out .
And as I can see some pointing out the threshold for PC is quite low so many just above the threshold. I asked @TheIFS how much would it cost if there was 100% take up of PC (which is surely what govt wants). They point out it would never happen but if it it did- over £2bn." |  | | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:18 - Sep 9 with 2686 views | DJR |
"Pushing 100,000 pensioners into poverty."
That wasn't in the manifesto, and one can only conclude that Reeves isn't as clever as she likes to think she is.
This from the Guardian.
"A thinktank has suggested that the government’s plan to means-test winter fuel payments could push an extra 100,000 pensioners into poverty.
In a briefing sent out ahead of the vote tomorrow on removing winter fuel payments from all pensioners apart from those receiving pension credit, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation says the government’s policy is likely to increase the number of pensioners living in poverty (defined as having less than 60% of median household income). It says:
One in six pensioners are in poverty in the latest data covering 2022/23 - 16% or 1.9 million. Relative pensioner poverty fell from 25% to 13% between 2002-2011, but it has increased by three percentage points since 2012/13.
Were winter fuel payment eligibility restricted in 2022/23 in the way the government is planning to this winter, an extra 100,000 pensioners would have been in poverty, pushing the total number to 2 million. This would have increased the pensioner poverty rate by one percentage point to 17%." | | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:51 - Sep 9 with 2618 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:18 - Sep 9 by DJR |
"Pushing 100,000 pensioners into poverty."
That wasn't in the manifesto, and one can only conclude that Reeves isn't as clever as she likes to think she is.
This from the Guardian.
"A thinktank has suggested that the government’s plan to means-test winter fuel payments could push an extra 100,000 pensioners into poverty.
In a briefing sent out ahead of the vote tomorrow on removing winter fuel payments from all pensioners apart from those receiving pension credit, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation says the government’s policy is likely to increase the number of pensioners living in poverty (defined as having less than 60% of median household income). It says:
One in six pensioners are in poverty in the latest data covering 2022/23 - 16% or 1.9 million. Relative pensioner poverty fell from 25% to 13% between 2002-2011, but it has increased by three percentage points since 2012/13.
Were winter fuel payment eligibility restricted in 2022/23 in the way the government is planning to this winter, an extra 100,000 pensioners would have been in poverty, pushing the total number to 2 million. This would have increased the pensioner poverty rate by one percentage point to 17%." |
Wonder what sort of reception Starmer will get when he speaks at TUC conference tomorrow.
Several Union leaders have already called on Kia Starmer to perform a U turn.
Starmer is latest Kia model to hit the market……comes without any guarantee but market leader in U turns. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:44 - Sep 9 with 2551 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:18 - Sep 9 by DJR |
"Pushing 100,000 pensioners into poverty."
That wasn't in the manifesto, and one can only conclude that Reeves isn't as clever as she likes to think she is.
This from the Guardian.
"A thinktank has suggested that the government’s plan to means-test winter fuel payments could push an extra 100,000 pensioners into poverty.
In a briefing sent out ahead of the vote tomorrow on removing winter fuel payments from all pensioners apart from those receiving pension credit, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation says the government’s policy is likely to increase the number of pensioners living in poverty (defined as having less than 60% of median household income). It says:
One in six pensioners are in poverty in the latest data covering 2022/23 - 16% or 1.9 million. Relative pensioner poverty fell from 25% to 13% between 2002-2011, but it has increased by three percentage points since 2012/13.
Were winter fuel payment eligibility restricted in 2022/23 in the way the government is planning to this winter, an extra 100,000 pensioners would have been in poverty, pushing the total number to 2 million. This would have increased the pensioner poverty rate by one percentage point to 17%." |
It’s fine. With the slow pace on tackling climate change, we won’t need heating in the winters soon 
(It’s obviously not fine). |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:48 - Sep 9 with 2548 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:19 - Sep 9 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Conservative austerity bad, Labour austerity good....is there a difference ? |
Is the answer that Conservative austerity is to allow more money for their rich mates whilst Labour austerity is to prevent spending beyond its means? I would hope the Labour government would raise fairer taxation and spend it to improve public services but we cannot ignore the impact the media has on portraying the profligate left as the party of financial mismanagement despite all the evidence that the last government has been that in spades. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 20:28 - Sep 9 with 2497 views | Leaky |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:25 - Sep 5 by Mullet |
Regardless of how good or bad they might be, how have they shown themselves to be as bad as the worst government in history?
Baffling thing to say when the findings of the Grenfell report is being analysed in the headlines this week. Let alone the billions of other reasons the Tories were terrible for all of us. |
There trying there best however hard act to follow |  | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 20:29 - Sep 9 with 2495 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:48 - Sep 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Is the answer that Conservative austerity is to allow more money for their rich mates whilst Labour austerity is to prevent spending beyond its means? I would hope the Labour government would raise fairer taxation and spend it to improve public services but we cannot ignore the impact the media has on portraying the profligate left as the party of financial mismanagement despite all the evidence that the last government has been that in spades. |
Does Conservative/Lib Dem austerity on the back of the worst structural deficit since 1697 fall into the former or the latter? |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 20:30 - Sep 9 with 2492 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:48 - Sep 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Is the answer that Conservative austerity is to allow more money for their rich mates whilst Labour austerity is to prevent spending beyond its means? I would hope the Labour government would raise fairer taxation and spend it to improve public services but we cannot ignore the impact the media has on portraying the profligate left as the party of financial mismanagement despite all the evidence that the last government has been that in spades. |
Just you wait until Labour start out sourcing/privatising health care again! And what is this Left party you speak of. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 20:46 - Sep 9 with 2449 views | Leaky |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:04 - Sep 9 by MattinLondon |
Every driving job carries its own risks - whereas a lorry driver has to deal with more idiotic drivers on busy roads, a train driver is responsible for hundreds of passengers each day.
I suspect the real reason why train drivers seem to be belittled more than other drivers is that they still have a strong union prepared to fight for better pay. |
Well a train driver did some work for, drives a Peterborough to Horsham route on Thames link, told me he's only there to inspire confidence in the passengers,. He maintains it wont be long before trains are driverless, apart from the 150mph inter city trains that's only because they fear passengers would boycott them without a man in the cab | | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 21:01 - Sep 9 with 2419 views | DJR |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:18 - Sep 9 by DJR |
"Pushing 100,000 pensioners into poverty."
That wasn't in the manifesto, and one can only conclude that Reeves isn't as clever as she likes to think she is.
This from the Guardian.
"A thinktank has suggested that the government’s plan to means-test winter fuel payments could push an extra 100,000 pensioners into poverty.
In a briefing sent out ahead of the vote tomorrow on removing winter fuel payments from all pensioners apart from those receiving pension credit, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation says the government’s policy is likely to increase the number of pensioners living in poverty (defined as having less than 60% of median household income). It says:
One in six pensioners are in poverty in the latest data covering 2022/23 - 16% or 1.9 million. Relative pensioner poverty fell from 25% to 13% between 2002-2011, but it has increased by three percentage points since 2012/13.
Were winter fuel payment eligibility restricted in 2022/23 in the way the government is planning to this winter, an extra 100,000 pensioners would have been in poverty, pushing the total number to 2 million. This would have increased the pensioner poverty rate by one percentage point to 17%." |
Had it been in the manifesto, a handy three word slogan could have been
"Killing 4,000 crumblies".
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/winter-fuel-payment-cut-labour-de [Post edited 9 Sep 2024 21:03]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 22:38 - Sep 9 with 2304 views | MattinLondon |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 20:46 - Sep 9 by Leaky |
Well a train driver did some work for, drives a Peterborough to Horsham route on Thames link, told me he's only there to inspire confidence in the passengers,. He maintains it wont be long before trains are driverless, apart from the 150mph inter city trains that's only because they fear passengers would boycott them without a man in the cab |
Cool story. | | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 06:30 - Sep 10 with 2177 views | Benters |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 20:46 - Sep 9 by Leaky |
Well a train driver did some work for, drives a Peterborough to Horsham route on Thames link, told me he's only there to inspire confidence in the passengers,. He maintains it wont be long before trains are driverless, apart from the 150mph inter city trains that's only because they fear passengers would boycott them without a man in the cab |
I believe that. | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 07:27 - Sep 10 with 2115 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 06:30 - Sep 10 by Benters |
I believe that. |
Course you do. Not interested in the facts I posted about train drivers, just what you believe will do. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:07 - Sep 10 with 1995 views | bluejacko |
Obviously nobody wants this to happen but when and if a pensioner is proven to have died due to the cold this cut causes god help Starmer and Reeves from the ton of brown stuff that will fall on their heads! | | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:11 - Sep 10 with 1977 views | DanTheMan |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 20:46 - Sep 9 by Leaky |
Well a train driver did some work for, drives a Peterborough to Horsham route on Thames link, told me he's only there to inspire confidence in the passengers,. He maintains it wont be long before trains are driverless, apart from the 150mph inter city trains that's only because they fear passengers would boycott them without a man in the cab |
We'd just need a few hundred billion to upgrade all the tracks and signals. | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:34 - Sep 10 with 1888 views | DJR |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:11 - Sep 10 by DanTheMan |
We'd just need a few hundred billion to upgrade all the tracks and signals. |
I imagine this would involve replacing all the trains too. There might also be the need to be put in place on platforms the barriers that exist on the Jubilee Line and the shuttle at Gatwick, and only allow access at the doors of the train.
Not clear to me that all such changes would be cheaper than hanging on to a single train driver on each train. [Post edited 10 Sep 2024 10:41]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:36 - Sep 10 with 1864 views | DJR |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:07 - Sep 10 by bluejacko |
Obviously nobody wants this to happen but when and if a pensioner is proven to have died due to the cold this cut causes god help Starmer and Reeves from the ton of brown stuff that will fall on their heads! |
You can certainly imagine that the right wing media will be on the look-out for such cases. | | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:38 - Sep 10 with 1850 views | DanTheMan |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 10:34 - Sep 10 by DJR |
I imagine this would involve replacing all the trains too. There might also be the need to be put in place on platforms the barriers that exist on the Jubilee Line and the shuttle at Gatwick, and only allow access at the doors of the train.
Not clear to me that all such changes would be cheaper than hanging on to a single train driver on each train. [Post edited 10 Sep 2024 10:41]
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Yes, if your sole reason for doing it is because you don't like how much train drivers are paid, then the sums make absolutely no sense. This also goes for the tube, although that might pay itself off over a decade depending on maintenance. | |
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