| Labour Party and Kier Starmer 07:25 - Sep 3 with 47409 views | onceablue |
I just woke up from a nightmare where Kier Starmer and his Girlfriend Rachael Reeves were in charge of the country
Oh f@ck
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 16:47 - Sep 10 with 2511 views | Blueschev |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 16:29 - Sep 10 by blueasfook |
Currently they seem to be going after single people and pensioners. Hardly the richest of society. Are we in a new age of vindictive politics now where people are punished for how they voted? |
7 Labour MPs being suspended for voting against the government regarding the two child benefit cap would suggest that we are very much in said age. Mind you young people have been punished for not voting Conservative for decades. |  | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:16 - Sep 10 with 2429 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 16:32 - Sep 10 by positivity |
interesting to see how the austerity is handed this time.
under the tories, the richest 20% of the population were essentially excluded from the impact of cuts.
it's not going to be the same this time, hence the howling from those who were totally silent on austerity first time round |
Yes, going after vulnerable elderly people certainly looks like it won't be the same as last time. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:26 - Sep 10 with 2393 views | positivity |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:16 - Sep 10 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes, going after vulnerable elderly people certainly looks like it won't be the same as last time. |
the very most vulnerable elderly people won't be affected, it's the (comparatively) less vulnerable ones who will including the 20% who earn more than £40,000 per year.
you can argue that the boundary isn't in the right place and the correct safeguards aren't in place as they should be (and i may agree with you), but arguing that the top 20% are unaffected by the cuts as in conservative austerity is nonsense [Post edited 10 Sep 2024 17:27]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:32 - Sep 10 with 2383 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:26 - Sep 10 by positivity |
the very most vulnerable elderly people won't be affected, it's the (comparatively) less vulnerable ones who will including the 20% who earn more than £40,000 per year.
you can argue that the boundary isn't in the right place and the correct safeguards aren't in place as they should be (and i may agree with you), but arguing that the top 20% are unaffected by the cuts as in conservative austerity is nonsense [Post edited 10 Sep 2024 17:27]
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What a silly response! |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:34 - Sep 10 with 2374 views | positivity |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:32 - Sep 10 by Pinewoodblue |
What a silly response! |
which part, the inconvenient facts or my poor way of expressing them? more constructive criticism please! | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:35 - Sep 10 with 2365 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:32 - Sep 10 by Pinewoodblue |
What a silly response! |
He's right. Glassers' "going after vulnerable elderly people" is emotive nonsense.
Not that his lot did anything for pensioners anyway (they just didn't realise the government was giving with one hand and taking back with another). |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:42 - Sep 10 with 2353 views | mutters |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 16:45 - Sep 10 by itfcjoe |
Pensioners have been rewarded by how they voted over the last administration - whatever peoples thoughts on the details of this change, it should be no surprise that when the election hasn't been won by the party that consistently has chucked them bungs in return for their votes that they, rather than other parts of the population, may be the ones that aren't prioritised by this administration. |
I think it's very misguided if you think all pensioners are Torys supporters |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:46 - Sep 10 with 2336 views | positivity |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:42 - Sep 10 by mutters |
I think it's very misguided if you think all pensioners are Torys supporters |
yes, only 41% apparently (down from 64% in 2019), majority of the switchers went to reform | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:04 - Sep 10 with 2302 views | leitrimblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:26 - Sep 10 by positivity |
the very most vulnerable elderly people won't be affected, it's the (comparatively) less vulnerable ones who will including the 20% who earn more than £40,000 per year.
you can argue that the boundary isn't in the right place and the correct safeguards aren't in place as they should be (and i may agree with you), but arguing that the top 20% are unaffected by the cuts as in conservative austerity is nonsense [Post edited 10 Sep 2024 17:27]
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Surely those just above the threshold become the new vulnerable ones?
A Labour government shouldn't be forcing any elderly people into choosing to feed themselves well or put on the heating. The vast majority of um woulda payed plenty of tax during their working lives not to have to face those kinda worrys |  | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:11 - Sep 10 with 2278 views | positivity |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:04 - Sep 10 by leitrimblue |
Surely those just above the threshold become the new vulnerable ones?
A Labour government shouldn't be forcing any elderly people into choosing to feed themselves well or put on the heating. The vast majority of um woulda payed plenty of tax during their working lives not to have to face those kinda worrys |
yes, though by definition, they weren't as vulnerable as the ones that were protected. tory austerity hit the most vulnerable the hardest, this isn't the same
i agree that there shouldn't be cliff-edges, and that the whole policy has massive holes in it, but the principle of redistributing wealth from the richest pensioners to the poorest pensioners via increased take-up of pension credits is a positive | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:21 - Sep 10 with 2234 views | brazil1982 |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 15:31 - Sep 10 by DJR |
One Labour MP (John Tricket) voted against.
What a spineless bunch but only to be expected with all the hand-picked new Labour MPs. [Post edited 10 Sep 2024 15:32]
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Is it too early to call them nasty / fascist/ evil yet? |  | | |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:34 - Sep 10 with 2216 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:11 - Sep 10 by positivity |
yes, though by definition, they weren't as vulnerable as the ones that were protected. tory austerity hit the most vulnerable the hardest, this isn't the same
i agree that there shouldn't be cliff-edges, and that the whole policy has massive holes in it, but the principle of redistributing wealth from the richest pensioners to the poorest pensioners via increased take-up of pension credits is a positive |
There are not separate money pots for each age group. Dare I say another silly comment.
If the state of finances is worse than anticipated, and voters had already been warned in advance they were not good, then the answer surely is to raise income tax &/ or VAT.
Pensioners are actually the second group to be targeted, the first was lower/ mid earning families with more than two children.
Removing Winter Fuel payments increases the number of Pensioners below the poverty line, and that is set too low anyway. | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:47 - Sep 10 with 2200 views | positivity |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 18:34 - Sep 10 by Pinewoodblue |
There are not separate money pots for each age group. Dare I say another silly comment.
If the state of finances is worse than anticipated, and voters had already been warned in advance they were not good, then the answer surely is to raise income tax &/ or VAT.
Pensioners are actually the second group to be targeted, the first was lower/ mid earning families with more than two children.
Removing Winter Fuel payments increases the number of Pensioners below the poverty line, and that is set too low anyway. |
they aren't separate pots, but if you take money from the more well-off pensioners and give it to less well-off pensioners via the pension credits, then that's redistribution of wealth.
income tax and vat are possibilities, but the tories ruled it out and labour were wrong to believe their spin on the state of the finances and did the same, making it tricky.
that leaves other ways of raising money including inheritance tax/wealth taxes/non-doms/universal benefits, all are likely to happen to restore the balance.
you're also wrong to say lower/ mid earning families with more than two children were targetted, this was a tory policy which wasn't reversed. it'd be like saying the rich were targeted as the freezing of the top rate of tax threshold wasn't reversed.
if inaction is "targetting", then there are plenty of other groups "targetted" before the non-pension-credit pensioners | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:02 - Sep 10 with 2164 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 16:27 - Sep 10 by GlasgowBlue |
I must admit I'm rather enjoying seeing the people who complained about austerity under the coalition, introduced because the finaces were completely fckued, now defending austerity under Labour because the finances are completely fcuked. |
Ahem!  |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:03 - Sep 10 with 2156 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:16 - Sep 10 by GlasgowBlue |
Yes, going after vulnerable elderly people certainly looks like it won't be the same as last time. |
Imagine voting for it every time! | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:14 - Sep 10 with 2128 views | itfcjoe |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 17:42 - Sep 10 by mutters |
I think it's very misguided if you think all pensioners are Torys supporters |
I don’t think that they are, but it’s clear that over the last 14 years the voting habits of their demographic have seen them protected, whereas there is now a Govt in place that aren’t reliant on their votes and have their own demographics and groups of voters that will be a bigger priority to look after |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:35 - Sep 10 with 2081 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:14 - Sep 10 by itfcjoe |
I don’t think that they are, but it’s clear that over the last 14 years the voting habits of their demographic have seen them protected, whereas there is now a Govt in place that aren’t reliant on their votes and have their own demographics and groups of voters that will be a bigger priority to look after |
Property owning networkers? | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 21:33 - Sep 10 with 1951 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 19:14 - Sep 10 by itfcjoe |
I don’t think that they are, but it’s clear that over the last 14 years the voting habits of their demographic have seen them protected, whereas there is now a Govt in place that aren’t reliant on their votes and have their own demographics and groups of voters that will be a bigger priority to look after |
My experience has been that as you get older you move more to the right politically, but not necessarily from one party to another.
Would explain why so many older voters supported Reform in General Election. Something that significantly increased the Labour majority. Without that shift Labour would still have won and had a workable msjority by nowhere near the current 180. | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 21:51 - Sep 10 with 1939 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 21:33 - Sep 10 by Pinewoodblue |
My experience has been that as you get older you move more to the right politically, but not necessarily from one party to another.
Would explain why so many older voters supported Reform in General Election. Something that significantly increased the Labour majority. Without that shift Labour would still have won and had a workable msjority by nowhere near the current 180. |
My experience is that as you get older you move more to the left politically. I know plenty of younger people who are staunch Conservative supporters (although even a few of them have wavered this time around).
I think a key demographic is your age when Labour were in power in the 70s and under Thatcher and how each experience affected you personally. To a degree some of that will have been passed on to the next generation too. However, it seems the impacts of New Labour and the recent Conservatives have been much smaller or shorter-lived than those previous ones. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 06:43 - Sep 11 with 1759 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 16:45 - Sep 10 by itfcjoe |
Pensioners have been rewarded by how they voted over the last administration - whatever peoples thoughts on the details of this change, it should be no surprise that when the election hasn't been won by the party that consistently has chucked them bungs in return for their votes that they, rather than other parts of the population, may be the ones that aren't prioritised by this administration. |
100%. Over the last fourteen years working age and young people have had to bear the brunt of almost all the cuts. Public sector pay falling in real terms, EMA cuts, removal of nurses bursary, a 40 year repayment period for student loans, two child cap, benefit freezes, a broken housing market. Meanwhile pensioners (who have generally voted for cuts to others) have been insulated by the triple lock.
There can be an argument over thresholds and I’d like to see pension credit for the poorest increased but it’s pretty galling to see this level of backlash to the idea that the wealthier over-65s should make a fraction of the sacrifice that other generations have made.
I realise I’m slightly falling into the trap of putting young against old but it’s just a demonstrable fact that generational unfairness is a serious problem. [Post edited 11 Sep 2024 6:54]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:07 - Sep 11 with 1626 views | DJR |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 06:43 - Sep 11 by tractordownsouth |
100%. Over the last fourteen years working age and young people have had to bear the brunt of almost all the cuts. Public sector pay falling in real terms, EMA cuts, removal of nurses bursary, a 40 year repayment period for student loans, two child cap, benefit freezes, a broken housing market. Meanwhile pensioners (who have generally voted for cuts to others) have been insulated by the triple lock.
There can be an argument over thresholds and I’d like to see pension credit for the poorest increased but it’s pretty galling to see this level of backlash to the idea that the wealthier over-65s should make a fraction of the sacrifice that other generations have made.
I realise I’m slightly falling into the trap of putting young against old but it’s just a demonstrable fact that generational unfairness is a serious problem. [Post edited 11 Sep 2024 6:54]
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On the other hand, elderly people (and the disabled) have suffered unduly because of the parlous state of the NHS and social care, including during Covid.
And surely there is something wrong with a policy which puts 100,000 pensioners into poverty and leads to an additional 4,000 winter deaths?
In addition, anyone below pension age ought to be concerned about chipping away at the state pension because it sets a dangerous precedent, and who knows what meagre offerings might be available by the time they come to retire. [Post edited 11 Sep 2024 9:32]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:12 - Sep 11 with 1596 views | giant_stow |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:07 - Sep 11 by DJR |
On the other hand, elderly people (and the disabled) have suffered unduly because of the parlous state of the NHS and social care, including during Covid.
And surely there is something wrong with a policy which puts 100,000 pensioners into poverty and leads to an additional 4,000 winter deaths?
In addition, anyone below pension age ought to be concerned about chipping away at the state pension because it sets a dangerous precedent, and who knows what meagre offerings might be available by the time they come to retire. [Post edited 11 Sep 2024 9:32]
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I thought NHS spending had been *relatively* protected throughout austerity?
That's not to say the NHS doesn't need more spent on it, but just that in inter-generational terms, its another example of older people being (relatively) protected. |  |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:25 - Sep 11 with 1562 views | DJR |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:12 - Sep 11 by giant_stow |
I thought NHS spending had been *relatively* protected throughout austerity?
That's not to say the NHS doesn't need more spent on it, but just that in inter-generational terms, its another example of older people being (relatively) protected. |
If you look at Figure 2 in the linked IFS report, you will see that real term increases in health spending since 2010 have been well below the average since WWW2, and that at a time when the population has increased and aged dramatically.
It should also be noted that the figures for the latest Parliament will include very large increases to cope with Covid.
https://ifs.org.uk/publications/past-and-future-uk-health-spending
And you don't have to see it in figures. You only have to visit Aintree Hospital, where my mother in law has been for over two months, to see how shambolic things are. Indeed, lack of proper care has led to her suffering damage to her brain and to her stay being much longer than it need be.
There is also the bed-blocking problem due to the crisis in social care.
The real damage to the NHS was done during the coalition, and the parlous state of the NHS will be reflected in Lord Darsi's report tomorrow which will say that the UK went into Covid with insufficient capacity to cope. [Post edited 11 Sep 2024 9:31]
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:35 - Sep 11 with 1524 views | giant_stow |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:25 - Sep 11 by DJR |
If you look at Figure 2 in the linked IFS report, you will see that real term increases in health spending since 2010 have been well below the average since WWW2, and that at a time when the population has increased and aged dramatically.
It should also be noted that the figures for the latest Parliament will include very large increases to cope with Covid.
https://ifs.org.uk/publications/past-and-future-uk-health-spending
And you don't have to see it in figures. You only have to visit Aintree Hospital, where my mother in law has been for over two months, to see how shambolic things are. Indeed, lack of proper care has led to her suffering damage to her brain and to her stay being much longer than it need be.
There is also the bed-blocking problem due to the crisis in social care.
The real damage to the NHS was done during the coalition, and the parlous state of the NHS will be reflected in Lord Darsi's report tomorrow which will say that the UK went into Covid with insufficient capacity to cope. [Post edited 11 Sep 2024 9:31]
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I'm not doubting that the NHS is in a proper state - that's clear as day, but I think it's because the it's needed *increased* spending owing to more demand.
In the context of austerity, it's not suffered the cuts that other departments, such as local govt, have - hence the point related to inter-generational fairness. It's done badly, but not as badly as other areas. | |
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| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:39 - Sep 11 with 1498 views | DanTheMan |
| Labour Party and Kier Starmer on 09:07 - Sep 11 by DJR |
On the other hand, elderly people (and the disabled) have suffered unduly because of the parlous state of the NHS and social care, including during Covid.
And surely there is something wrong with a policy which puts 100,000 pensioners into poverty and leads to an additional 4,000 winter deaths?
In addition, anyone below pension age ought to be concerned about chipping away at the state pension because it sets a dangerous precedent, and who knows what meagre offerings might be available by the time they come to retire. [Post edited 11 Sep 2024 9:32]
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On your last line, I've already accepted I'm just not going to get a state pension. Unless we continue with huge population increases to keep the ratio of working people to pensioners even remotely sane, I just don't see how it works as a policy long term when we're all living until much later in life. And seeing as people can't afford to have children and people don't want immigration I don't really understand how we can have it all, so to speak.
It's immensely frustrating. |  |
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