| Chris Kaba verdict 19:12 - Oct 21 with 28056 views | Zx1988 |
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c17lk592ygdo
Not sure what I make of this.
If, as the article perhaps suggests, the verdict hinged upon the testimony of Blake's fellow firearms officers, I feel a distinct sense of 'they would say that, wouldn't they'.
Is there any other scenario where, essentially, the corroborating testimony of one's chums would be enough to secure a not guilty verdict? |  |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 18:13 - Oct 22 with 2194 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 15:18 - Oct 22 by lowhouseblue |
"the CPS obviously thought there was enough to say he shouldn’t have"
the alternative of course is that the cps knew full well that a jury would find him innocent but that taking it to court would avoid the cps having to take responsibility for the decision. |
That would not be a factor that the CPS could or would take into account in making its decision.
Maybe the use of bodycam etc makes it more likely that such cases could reach court these days (unlike the days of Blair Peach and John Charles de Menezes).
As it is, and based on Wikipedia, of 41 cases where the police killed someone since 2010 only two resulted in a charge (manslaughter), and only the police officer involved in the Dalian Atkinson case was found guilty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_th [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 18:24]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 18:32 - Oct 22 with 2142 views | gtsb1966 |
Considering the sensitive subject I think this is one of the best debated, no arguments thread, for a long time. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 18:42 - Oct 22 with 2108 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 18:32 - Oct 22 by gtsb1966 |
Considering the sensitive subject I think this is one of the best debated, no arguments thread, for a long time. |
Perhaps some correlation with absent posters…. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 18:49 - Oct 22 with 2082 views | lowhouseblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 18:13 - Oct 22 by DJR |
That would not be a factor that the CPS could or would take into account in making its decision.
Maybe the use of bodycam etc makes it more likely that such cases could reach court these days (unlike the days of Blair Peach and John Charles de Menezes).
As it is, and based on Wikipedia, of 41 cases where the police killed someone since 2010 only two resulted in a charge (manslaughter), and only the police officer involved in the Dalian Atkinson case was found guilty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_th [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 18:24]
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you think that public perception doesn't come into cps charging decisions?
as you say in similar circumstances where there has been a charge it's been manslaughter - which makes a murder charge in this case very hard to understand. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:02 - Oct 22 with 2049 views | Ryorry |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 17:59 - Oct 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
And also you have to add in that the car was known to have been used in a shooting the previous day. That's a massive bit of context the policeman will have in his mind. It's more likely that the driver has a gun than any other car to be honest! |
Yes, I kinda took that bit of info & context for granted! |  |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:03 - Oct 22 with 2047 views | bazza |
I think in all cases, past crimes should be made public.. because it has the total opposite effect on the way people view what’s happened.. he gets painted as an innocent victim, when all along he’s a complete an utter bag of sh@t, and that copper who put his life in the firing line had had to go through all that stress . Just so wrong. Stop protecting criminals.. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:10 - Oct 22 with 2016 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:03 - Oct 22 by bazza |
I think in all cases, past crimes should be made public.. because it has the total opposite effect on the way people view what’s happened.. he gets painted as an innocent victim, when all along he’s a complete an utter bag of sh@t, and that copper who put his life in the firing line had had to go through all that stress . Just so wrong. Stop protecting criminals.. |
I think that's a reasonable point (and especially so in this case). It's tricky though, because past misdemeanours won't always be relevant and a totally reformed character could be innocent but the jury is swayed by what they did in the past. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:18 - Oct 22 with 1988 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:03 - Oct 22 by bazza |
I think in all cases, past crimes should be made public.. because it has the total opposite effect on the way people view what’s happened.. he gets painted as an innocent victim, when all along he’s a complete an utter bag of sh@t, and that copper who put his life in the firing line had had to go through all that stress . Just so wrong. Stop protecting criminals.. |
This is a rather unusual case when it comes to releasing details because Kaba wasn't actually a defendant because he was dead.
As it is this from the Guardian indicates why the information was made public.
"The family of Kaba had sought to extend reporting restrictions relating to his criminal past pending the end of all legal proceedings. But police, in a statement to the court, argued publication of details about his character could quell any potential unrest.
The Met police deputy assistant commissioner Stuart Cundy said in a statement: “It is the Metropolitan police’s assessment that the open and transparent disclosure of Mr Kaba’s character at the conclusion of the … trial will significantly reduce the risk of unrest on London’s streets and help keep the public safe.”
Cundy said planned protests about the acquittal would be largely peaceful but some people could try to commit violence." | | | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:18 - Oct 22 with 1987 views | MattinLondon |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:03 - Oct 22 by bazza |
I think in all cases, past crimes should be made public.. because it has the total opposite effect on the way people view what’s happened.. he gets painted as an innocent victim, when all along he’s a complete an utter bag of sh@t, and that copper who put his life in the firing line had had to go through all that stress . Just so wrong. Stop protecting criminals.. |
It’s not about protecting criminals but prosecuting strictly to the evidence available for that particular crime rather than prosecuting previous crimes - which that particular person would have already been punished. Just because someone has a history for violence doesn’t mean that they are always guilty (not sure I’ve explained that properly).
Plus, some ex-criminals do mend their ways. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:25 - Oct 22 with 1953 views | bazza |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:10 - Oct 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I think that's a reasonable point (and especially so in this case). It's tricky though, because past misdemeanours won't always be relevant and a totally reformed character could be innocent but the jury is swayed by what they did in the past. |
But if he’s a reformed character they can at least take it in to account.. unless he’s been reformed a month or two.. just seems in certain cases, more information should be released, this may have helped in the recent riots also. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:26 - Oct 22 with 1945 views | Churchman |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 18:32 - Oct 22 by gtsb1966 |
Considering the sensitive subject I think this is one of the best debated, no arguments thread, for a long time. |
I agree GTSB. Diverse opinions, respected as they should be. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:29 - Oct 22 with 1935 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:25 - Oct 22 by bazza |
But if he’s a reformed character they can at least take it in to account.. unless he’s been reformed a month or two.. just seems in certain cases, more information should be released, this may have helped in the recent riots also. |
Unfortunately some people think "once a wrong-un, always a wrong-un", so even if they're told he's reformed they might have in the back of their mind, "But what if he went back to it?"
But I agree in certain cases more information should be released and this seems like one of those cases. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:30 - Oct 22 with 1930 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 18:49 - Oct 22 by lowhouseblue |
you think that public perception doesn't come into cps charging decisions?
as you say in similar circumstances where there has been a charge it's been manslaughter - which makes a murder charge in this case very hard to understand. |
These are the grounds for charging.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/principles-we-follow
"The Code for Crown Prosecutors sets out the basic principles to be followed by Crown Prosecutors when they make case decisions. The decision on whether or not to charge a case against a suspect is based on the Full Code Test as outlined in the Code. The Full Code Test has two stages:
The evidential stage
This is the first stage in the decision to prosecute. Crown Prosecutors must be satisfied that there is enough evidence to provide a "realistic prospect of conviction" against each defendant on each charge. They must consider whether the evidence can be used and is reliable. They must also consider what the defence case may be and how that is likely to affect the prosecution case. A "realistic prospect of conviction" is an objective test. It means that a jury or a bench of magistrates, properly directed in accordance with the law, will be more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge alleged. (This is a separate test from the one that criminal courts themselves must apply. A jury or magistrates' court should only convict if it is sure of a defendant's guilt.) If the case does not pass the evidential stage, it must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.
The public interest stage
If the case does pass the evidential stage, Crown Prosecutors must then decide whether a prosecution is needed in the public interest. They must balance factors for and against prosecution carefully and fairly. Some factors may increase the need to prosecute but others may suggest that another course of action would be better. A prosecution will usually take place however, unless there are public interest factors tending against prosecution which clearly outweigh those tending in favour. The CPS will only start or continue a prosecution if a case has passed both stages."
This explains the murder charge.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2024/oct/22/chris-kaba-death-why-police-officer-
As it is, I suggested early in this thread a lesser charge than murder or manslaughter (reflecting the difficult position of the police) to cover those cases, say, where an inquest jury decides there is an unlawful killing but a murder or manslaughter prosecution may be difficult or impossible to succeed..
The case of Ian Tomlinson springs to mind.
Tomlinson collapsed and died after being struck by a police officer during the 2009 G-20 summit protests. After an inquest jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing, the officer, Simon Harwood, was prosecuted for manslaughter. He was found not guilty but was dismissed from the police service for gross misconduct. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 19:38]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:38 - Oct 22 with 1900 views | MattinLondon |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:29 - Oct 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Unfortunately some people think "once a wrong-un, always a wrong-un", so even if they're told he's reformed they might have in the back of their mind, "But what if he went back to it?"
But I agree in certain cases more information should be released and this seems like one of those cases. |
Are jurors informed of the background to an incident such as this? | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:00 - Oct 22 with 1874 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:38 - Oct 22 by MattinLondon |
Are jurors informed of the background to an incident such as this? |
I posted this earlier about this case.
Details of Kaba’s past offending were not put before the jury in the murder trial at the Old Bailey because the judge, Mr Justice Goss, ruled they were not relevant.
Blake, at the point he pulled the trigger on 5 September 2022, did not know these details and did not know who was in the Audi Q8, which police believed was linked to a firearms incident the night before." [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 20:01]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:10 - Oct 22 with 1843 views | soupytwist |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 15:45 - Oct 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You said, "a black man being shot by a policeman and then them closing ranks around them and no guilt being found" - putting those words together like that makes it look like he wasn't found guilty because the police closed ranks. The two aren't related.
The policeman did know the car was used in a shooting the previous day, and whoever was driving was trying to evade capture and was ramming police cars. So yes, the policeman did know he was a villain. |
According to The Guardian report on the matter of Kaba's history, and that of the car:
"Details of Kaba’s past offending were not put before the jury in the murder trial at the Old Bailey because the judge, Mr Justice Goss, ruled they were not relevant.
Blake, at the point he pulled the trigger on 5 September 2022, did not know these details and did not know who was in the Audi Q8, which police believed was linked to a firearms incident the night before."
The last bit about the car isn't absolutely clear - "police believed" - does that mean that Officer Blake knew about the car's history or not? |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:23 - Oct 22 with 1804 views | Ryorry |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:10 - Oct 22 by soupytwist |
According to The Guardian report on the matter of Kaba's history, and that of the car:
"Details of Kaba’s past offending were not put before the jury in the murder trial at the Old Bailey because the judge, Mr Justice Goss, ruled they were not relevant.
Blake, at the point he pulled the trigger on 5 September 2022, did not know these details and did not know who was in the Audi Q8, which police believed was linked to a firearms incident the night before."
The last bit about the car isn't absolutely clear - "police believed" - does that mean that Officer Blake knew about the car's history or not? |
"police believed" = just standard jargon for 'they knew' innit, akin to TWTD's "imminent" signings. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 20:24]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:37 - Oct 22 with 1777 views | Vegtablue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:25 - Oct 22 by bazza |
But if he’s a reformed character they can at least take it in to account.. unless he’s been reformed a month or two.. just seems in certain cases, more information should be released, this may have helped in the recent riots also. |
It seems Kaba's relevant actions were effectively provided in evidence, insomuch as they related to the car and the reasons it was stopped. The officer wasn't responding to Kaba's unique threat when he shot him because he didn't know it was him, so it's right more info wasn't released to avoid prejudicing a fair trial.
I wonder if armed officers receive all intel before responding to events or if they just receive the pertinent stuff as and when they're deployed. My understanding is they're only deployed when the target poses a serious threat, so I'm not sure they'd need to be made aware of more than the objective and level / type of risk. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:40 - Oct 22 with 1769 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:10 - Oct 22 by soupytwist |
According to The Guardian report on the matter of Kaba's history, and that of the car:
"Details of Kaba’s past offending were not put before the jury in the murder trial at the Old Bailey because the judge, Mr Justice Goss, ruled they were not relevant.
Blake, at the point he pulled the trigger on 5 September 2022, did not know these details and did not know who was in the Audi Q8, which police believed was linked to a firearms incident the night before."
The last bit about the car isn't absolutely clear - "police believed" - does that mean that Officer Blake knew about the car's history or not? |
See Ryorry's answer. Also, from the BBC's report: "they did know it had been used as a getaway car in another shooting in Brixton, south London, the night before. An automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) marker had been placed on the car, which alerted the police to it."
Also, they knew he was a villain by virtue of the fact he was ramming them! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:52 - Oct 22 with 1737 views | MattinLondon |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:40 - Oct 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
See Ryorry's answer. Also, from the BBC's report: "they did know it had been used as a getaway car in another shooting in Brixton, south London, the night before. An automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) marker had been placed on the car, which alerted the police to it."
Also, they knew he was a villain by virtue of the fact he was ramming them! |
This is going to sound like I’m defending the man which I’m not.
But from a psychological viewpoint I do wonder how many innocent people would have done the same. Just simply panic out of fear due to the presence of armed police. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 21:06 - Oct 22 with 1715 views | Vegtablue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:52 - Oct 22 by MattinLondon |
This is going to sound like I’m defending the man which I’m not.
But from a psychological viewpoint I do wonder how many innocent people would have done the same. Just simply panic out of fear due to the presence of armed police. |
Very few I'd say instinctively. The 'fight or flight' response shouldn't be triggered by the blinding lights of police cars and armed officers shouting at you to stop, once you have been stopped. I'd think normal people would freeze in that situation, not engage reverse drive and try to ram through them. Incidentally, I thought Kaba identified police were following him in his final phone call, though I may have misremembered this. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 21:16 - Oct 22 with 1689 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:40 - Oct 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
See Ryorry's answer. Also, from the BBC's report: "they did know it had been used as a getaway car in another shooting in Brixton, south London, the night before. An automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) marker had been placed on the car, which alerted the police to it."
Also, they knew he was a villain by virtue of the fact he was ramming them! |
Thankfully we live in a country where the police killing a villain is not the norm. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 21:18]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 21:53 - Oct 22 with 1605 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:03 - Oct 22 by bazza |
I think in all cases, past crimes should be made public.. because it has the total opposite effect on the way people view what’s happened.. he gets painted as an innocent victim, when all along he’s a complete an utter bag of sh@t, and that copper who put his life in the firing line had had to go through all that stress . Just so wrong. Stop protecting criminals.. |
Everyone who stands before the courts is innocent until proven guilty. Regardless of whatever crimes they have been convicted of in the past, each case should be heard on it's own merit with the evidence available. Otherwise the case is prejudiced.
That's not a defence of Kaba, who is an absolute scumbag.
I also agree with Lowhouse and others who have said that this officer should never have had to go through a criminal trial in the first place. I think the CPS may have been under pressure from some of the statements made by various organisations, including the Mayor of London at the time which pretty much hung his officer out to dry. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 21:57]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 21:57 - Oct 22 with 1598 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:03 - Oct 22 by bazza |
I think in all cases, past crimes should be made public.. because it has the total opposite effect on the way people view what’s happened.. he gets painted as an innocent victim, when all along he’s a complete an utter bag of sh@t, and that copper who put his life in the firing line had had to go through all that stress . Just so wrong. Stop protecting criminals.. |
It is absolutely correct that this is not released beforehand because it has power to influence a jury, despite not actually being evidence about the crime being prosecuted. Absolute basics for proper justice. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:03 - Oct 22 with 1573 views | bazza |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 21:57 - Oct 22 by redrickstuhaart |
It is absolutely correct that this is not released beforehand because it has power to influence a jury, despite not actually being evidence about the crime being prosecuted. Absolute basics for proper justice. |
I just don’t believe in justice for utter scum bags. I understand how and why it’s done that way.. just wish their was an alternative in these types of cases, total scumbags getting protected from their past crimes just seems so wrong. | | | |
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