| Chris Kaba verdict 19:12 - Oct 21 with 28054 views | Zx1988 |
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c17lk592ygdo
Not sure what I make of this.
If, as the article perhaps suggests, the verdict hinged upon the testimony of Blake's fellow firearms officers, I feel a distinct sense of 'they would say that, wouldn't they'.
Is there any other scenario where, essentially, the corroborating testimony of one's chums would be enough to secure a not guilty verdict? |  |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:15 - Oct 23 with 1753 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
I don't see anything wrong with his statement there. He needs to support the decision whilst also not inflaming tensions, so has to be very careful with his words. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:18 - Oct 23 with 1739 views | Churchman |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:11 - Oct 23 by tcblue |
With the greatest respect, do you think police officers are held to the same standards as others, in the event of being accused of wrongdoing? |
I believe these days they are held to even greater standards than others. Evidence? None really, but the fact this man was brought to trial and the Mayor’s statement (see prev post) tells me that.
In fact, it’s not practical because these people have to make a living and some will enjoy their job but I’d love to see what Mayor Khan would do and say next if every firearms officer in the Met resigned on the basis of not wanting to be hung out to dry (by the current system in this instance, not the mayor) for doing their job. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 8:28]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:19 - Oct 23 with 1730 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:10 - Oct 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Usually that's the case but do you genuinely think that's true in this instance - the CPS concluded the police officer would be found guilty of murder, knowing all the facts we know? |
A test of a conviction being "more likely than not" does not mean a jury will actually convict. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:19 - Oct 23 with 1724 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:18 - Oct 23 by Churchman |
I believe these days they are held to even greater standards than others. Evidence? None really, but the fact this man was brought to trial and the Mayor’s statement (see prev post) tells me that.
In fact, it’s not practical because these people have to make a living and some will enjoy their job but I’d love to see what Mayor Khan would do and say next if every firearms officer in the Met resigned on the basis of not wanting to be hung out to dry (by the current system in this instance, not the mayor) for doing their job. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 8:28]
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In what way has Khan hung the officer out to dry? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:20 - Oct 23 with 1705 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:11 - Oct 23 by tcblue |
With the greatest respect, do you think police officers are held to the same standards as others, in the event of being accused of wrongdoing? |
I do not believe that “police officers appear to have effective immunity at present, no matter what they do” which was the statement I replied to.
The fact that PC Blake was prosecuted by the CPS is evidence that they are far from immune. |  |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:22 - Oct 23 with 1684 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:19 - Oct 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
In what way has Khan hung the officer out to dry? |
With this statement last year.
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:25 - Oct 23 with 1647 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:19 - Oct 23 by DJR |
A test of a conviction being "more likely than not" does not mean a jury will actually convict. |
I didn't say they would. My question was whether the CPS genuinely thought they would get a conviction, knowing all the evidence we know. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:27 - Oct 23 with 1639 views | Churchman |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:19 - Oct 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
In what way has Khan hung the officer out to dry? |
He didn’t - poor wording on my part (amended). Apols. The system did that exposing him to a trial. Investigation? Of course. An independent one too, but not what happened here. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 8:29]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:28 - Oct 23 with 1624 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:22 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue |
With this statement last year.
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I think Churchers was referring to Khan's latest statement, but frankly I can't see where he's "hung the officer out to dry" in either. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:33 - Oct 23 with 1587 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:25 - Oct 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I didn't say they would. My question was whether the CPS genuinely thought they would get a conviction, knowing all the evidence we know. |
Reading things in the media (a lot of which is irrelevant to the actual case) doesn't mean we know all the evidence. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 8:37]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:54 - Oct 23 with 1518 views | Vegtablue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:22 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue |
With this statement last year.
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This highlights the huge pressure the CPS was under at the time to charge him. Diane Abbott was beseeching them to prosecute as a matter of urgency, to let justice be done, among other important voices from memory. I don't believe our independent public bodies operate in a vacuum, realistically, when tensions and fervour were so high as following this incident. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 8:58]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:56 - Oct 23 with 1503 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:11 - Oct 23 by tcblue |
With the greatest respect, do you think police officers are held to the same standards as others, in the event of being accused of wrongdoing? |
Yes - he had a trial in front of a jury, same as you or I would have done. Enough with the culture wars stuff. Why can’t people grasp this wasn’t some internal police cover up, but a fair and impartial trial.
Sadly it’s gun toting, trigger happy criminals like Kaba that mean armed officers had to be deployed anyway. It would be nice to live in a world where armed police didn’t even need to exist. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:07 - Oct 23 with 1450 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:54 - Oct 23 by Vegtablue |
This highlights the huge pressure the CPS was under at the time to charge him. Diane Abbott was beseeching them to prosecute as a matter of urgency, to let justice be done, among other important voices from memory. I don't believe our independent public bodies operate in a vacuum, realistically, when tensions and fervour were so high as following this incident. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 8:58]
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As did the former leader of the Labour Party, Black Lives Matter Uk and the Runnymede Trust. The CPS were under huge pressure to prosecute. | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:07 - Oct 23 with 1443 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:58 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue |
PC Blake was subjected to a full independent investigation by the IOPC. The CPS prosecuted him for murder and he stood trial at the Old Bailey, where he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers.
That process is far from your view that “ police officers appear to have effective immunity at present, no matter what they do”.
I’m not sure having a lesser charge would be particularly helpful either. The verdict was reached on the basis of whether PC Blake intended to kill Kaba or not but in the basis that he took the shot as he believed other officers were in danger at the time. |
By effective immunity I meant immunity against successful prosecution, given in my view that a jury is unlikely ever to find an officer guilty of murder.
This is why I suggested a lesser offence (reckless use of force?), so that in appropriate cases (and this may well not be such a case), the victim's family get some sort of justice through the courts, something that didn't happen in, say, the Tomlinson case. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 9:11]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:08 - Oct 23 with 1431 views | MattinLondon |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:49 - Oct 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Do you have any evidence that would lead you to think this? I have no idea, but it seems obvious to me if armed police are shouting at you to stop you stop. I can't think of anything more likely to make me stop!
And baring in mind I'm an innocent person - I think most innocent people would do what the police say. This 'he might've panicked' angle has been tried a couple of times but let's not forget he'd shot someone on a dancefloor previously and it's claimed he was the head of a gang - probably the least likely type of person to panic when faced by the police. |
I have zero evidence at all - To be honest I was thinking ‘would I panic and do something stupid despite not being in A gang etc’.
He was obviously a violent criminal and his first thoughts were to try and escape. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:21 - Oct 23 with 1362 views | tcblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:56 - Oct 23 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Yes - he had a trial in front of a jury, same as you or I would have done. Enough with the culture wars stuff. Why can’t people grasp this wasn’t some internal police cover up, but a fair and impartial trial.
Sadly it’s gun toting, trigger happy criminals like Kaba that mean armed officers had to be deployed anyway. It would be nice to live in a world where armed police didn’t even need to exist. |
I wasn't talking specifically about this trial.
The police are not held to high enough standards, and the Met police are institutionally racist (and homophobic and misogynist)
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/mar/21/metropolitan-police-institutiona
There is no 'culture war stuff'. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:21 - Oct 23 with 1362 views | bournemouthblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:34 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Not so much a cock up. When the bullet hit the windscreen part of that bullet “peeled off” and hit Kaba in the head. |
I'm not under any illusions that an extra barrier between someone and a bullet is going to make accuracy easier, this isn't the movies
My understanding is they'd generally aim for the centre of mass but obviously with a bonnet, a dashboard and a steering wheel in the way, there isn't a lot to hit there
I can't remember who it was but someone on Sky News was saying they should have shot out the tyres, not realising again, this isn't the movies |  |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:25 - Oct 23 with 1351 views | bournemouthblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:39 - Oct 23 by DJR |
That was me, and the reason I said it was that police officers appear to have effective immunity at present, no matter what they do.
In saying this, I recognise the difficult position that the police can be put in, and the fact that it might be thought that a murder or manslaughter charge in such circumstances may seem a bit too harsh. That was why I suggested a lesser, bespoke charge for cases (such as the Tomlinson case) of inappropriate police behaviour.
However, as might be expected, the direction of travel appears to be going in a way that I would not want if this is anything to go by.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/22/police-chiefs-government-make-ha
Police chiefs have formally asked the government to make it harder to investigate and prosecute officers after the fatal shooting of Chris Kaba led to a Scotland Yard sergeant being acquitted of murder, the Guardian has learned.
Campaigners have criticised the move, saying calls to redraw the rules were a cynical attempt by police leaders to secure “effective immunity” for their officers. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 7:40]
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It's a tricky one isn't it, you don't want bent coppers doing whatever they like
But they do need a certain degree of protection when they do have to kill someone in the worst case scenario or no one in their right mind is going to want to do it | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:26 - Oct 23 with 1348 views | Ryorry |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:42 - Oct 23 by itfcjoe |
He didn’t comply because he had shot and killed someone a few days earlier and knew of caught he’s seeing the inside of a cell for a long stretch - this isn’t a mistake it’s a desperate attempt to flee and escape his fate.
It’s not the same mindset as you or I being pulled over |
Of course. I was probably expressing it badly, but was trying to get across that would have contributed to the police thinking too, and would explain why the officer took the shot, through the windscreen, which I imagine (am obviously no expert) must be risky because of potential ‘deflections’ and fragmentation. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 9:29]
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:29 - Oct 23 with 1320 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:33 - Oct 23 by DJR |
Reading things in the media (a lot of which is irrelevant to the actual case) doesn't mean we know all the evidence. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 8:37]
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Again, I didn't say we know all the evidence! You seem to be good at putting words in my mouth and avoiding the question! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:35 - Oct 23 with 1284 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:21 - Oct 23 by bournemouthblue |
I'm not under any illusions that an extra barrier between someone and a bullet is going to make accuracy easier, this isn't the movies
My understanding is they'd generally aim for the centre of mass but obviously with a bonnet, a dashboard and a steering wheel in the way, there isn't a lot to hit there
I can't remember who it was but someone on Sky News was saying they should have shot out the tyres, not realising again, this isn't the movies |
Indeed. If the criminal has a gun - which the police must've thought very likely given they were tracking a car previously involved in a shooting - then shooting the tyres isn't going to address that situation! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:01 - Oct 23 with 1208 views | bournemouthblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:35 - Oct 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Indeed. If the criminal has a gun - which the police must've thought very likely given they were tracking a car previously involved in a shooting - then shooting the tyres isn't going to address that situation! |
Intelligence would have suggested he could have one, not that it was very likely he could be holding one whilst driving his car
The officers at the side, would have seen him with hands on the wheel presumably, they should be mic'd up so they may have relayed that, I don't know
Any death is a tragedy and the last thing any officer wants to do
And put this into a context, I know a friend from the army who did an exercise with firearms police
In 19/20 scenarios where the army would have shot, the police did not, that's the difference in restraint, they exercise | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:08 - Oct 23 with 1187 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:29 - Oct 23 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Again, I didn't say we know all the evidence! You seem to be good at putting words in my mouth and avoiding the question! |
You did say "knowing all the evidence we now know"!
As it is, the CPS will have considered the evidence and come to the conclusion that they did. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:17 - Oct 23 with 1159 views | SaleAway |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 09:07 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue |
As did the former leader of the Labour Party, Black Lives Matter Uk and the Runnymede Trust. The CPS were under huge pressure to prosecute. |
This has absolute shades of the Ben Stokes affray trial. Looking at the evidence presented to court ( including the guidelines issues by the judge to the jury on what affray actually means), there was basically no chance that Stokes would have been found guilty. However, the CPS clearly pushed the prosecution, knowing that the media take would have been "Here's someone fighting in the streets, getting off because they are famous", if they had let him go.
Similar to this one though, I do wonder about the wisdom of a murder charge ( or in Stokes case an affray charge). Which is a very high threshold. Is there a lesser misdemeanor that would have secured a guilty verdict ( in Stokes case - assault or ABH would have had a much higher chance of success than affray).
If we're going full on conspiracy though, you could claim that the CPS are pushing for the highest possible charge, knowing that this is more likely to fail.... ;-) | |
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| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:17 - Oct 23 with 1158 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:56 - Oct 23 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Yes - he had a trial in front of a jury, same as you or I would have done. Enough with the culture wars stuff. Why can’t people grasp this wasn’t some internal police cover up, but a fair and impartial trial.
Sadly it’s gun toting, trigger happy criminals like Kaba that mean armed officers had to be deployed anyway. It would be nice to live in a world where armed police didn’t even need to exist. |
It's certainly not culture wars stuff on my part.
My focus isn't this case but the difficulty of holding the police to account. After all, Blair Peach, John Charles de Menenez and Ian Tomlinson weren't gun-toting, trigger-happy criminals and they didn't get proper justice. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 10:40]
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