| Chris Kaba verdict 19:12 - Oct 21 with 28057 views | Zx1988 |
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c17lk592ygdo
Not sure what I make of this.
If, as the article perhaps suggests, the verdict hinged upon the testimony of Blake's fellow firearms officers, I feel a distinct sense of 'they would say that, wouldn't they'.
Is there any other scenario where, essentially, the corroborating testimony of one's chums would be enough to secure a not guilty verdict? |  |
| |  |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:19 - Oct 22 with 1518 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:03 - Oct 22 by bazza |
I just don’t believe in justice for utter scum bags. I understand how and why it’s done that way.. just wish their was an alternative in these types of cases, total scumbags getting protected from their past crimes just seems so wrong. |
Its not about decidiing whether he is a scumbag. Its about deciding what happened in this instance. It has to be proven on the evidence about this instance and juries, instinctively, can be influenced by knowing a background. people are incredibly judgmental! | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:51 - Oct 22 with 1470 views | bournemouthblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:19 - Oct 22 by redrickstuhaart |
Its not about decidiing whether he is a scumbag. Its about deciding what happened in this instance. It has to be proven on the evidence about this instance and juries, instinctively, can be influenced by knowing a background. people are incredibly judgmental! |
In fairness to armed response, they themselves would have had the intelligence as part of the risk assessment
However, it shouldn't effect the outcome of the situation, they would be judged on how they dealt with the situation at the time
It's an incredibly difficult job and split second decisions can determine life or death outcomes
Let's be brutally honest about this, when you are surrounded by armed officers, the game is up, trying to run off is stupid
Trying to run off whilst knowingly surrounded in a high power car, with officers infront of you is mind boggingly stupid, regardless of whether you have respect for the police or not
Every death is a tragedy, they are saying they hadn't intended to kill him
It probably is a cock up on the officer's part but mistakes happen in these situations, not often but they can happen
You can be an excellent marksman but it's dark, there's a high power car burning rubber and causing tyre smoke, it probably does have the power to force it's way through and strike colleagues or yourself, what do you do in that moment?
I assume they're a standard armed response team, the counter terror team's presumably have more tools at their disposal to defeat car windows quickly? I'd be disappointed if they don't [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 22:53]
|  |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:52 - Oct 22 with 1454 views | Vegtablue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:03 - Oct 22 by bazza |
I just don’t believe in justice for utter scum bags. I understand how and why it’s done that way.. just wish their was an alternative in these types of cases, total scumbags getting protected from their past crimes just seems so wrong. |
There is another problem with this beyond fair justice for all. I agree with the opinion that this case should never have gone to trial, but what about a different scenario in which the defendant was also a scumbag and a danger to society? What if a scumbag officer unlawfully killed a random victim who was later discovered to be a scumbag themselves? We wouldn't want that officer to be given a free pass to reoffend on account of a happy coincidence, because irrelevant revelations about the victim's character influenced the jury. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:57 - Oct 22 with 1433 views | Churchman |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:19 - Oct 22 by redrickstuhaart |
Its not about decidiing whether he is a scumbag. Its about deciding what happened in this instance. It has to be proven on the evidence about this instance and juries, instinctively, can be influenced by knowing a background. people are incredibly judgmental! |
It’s about the decision the police officer made in the circumstances he and his colleagues were in. They had no idea whether this mush had a hand gun, sawn off or a cheeseburger on the seat. The man was warned, he did what he did and ended his own life. It’s as simple as that. No debate for me. No jury required, no charges, no screaming for ‘justice’. Just an inquiry into how, what and why.
If what is reported is right and he was a murdering bit of dirt, I for one am glad he’s off the planet. But that is irrelevant. It was only ever about the situation the police had to deal with at the time.
What were the alternatives? They don’t have the gift of foresight so are left with wait and see what the man does next and hope he’s not going to kill - or deal with it.
It’s actually the policeman I feel sorry for. His career is done and it wouldn’t surprise me if he and family were not hounded for the foreseeable. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 23:29 - Oct 22 with 1410 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:51 - Oct 22 by bournemouthblue |
In fairness to armed response, they themselves would have had the intelligence as part of the risk assessment
However, it shouldn't effect the outcome of the situation, they would be judged on how they dealt with the situation at the time
It's an incredibly difficult job and split second decisions can determine life or death outcomes
Let's be brutally honest about this, when you are surrounded by armed officers, the game is up, trying to run off is stupid
Trying to run off whilst knowingly surrounded in a high power car, with officers infront of you is mind boggingly stupid, regardless of whether you have respect for the police or not
Every death is a tragedy, they are saying they hadn't intended to kill him
It probably is a cock up on the officer's part but mistakes happen in these situations, not often but they can happen
You can be an excellent marksman but it's dark, there's a high power car burning rubber and causing tyre smoke, it probably does have the power to force it's way through and strike colleagues or yourself, what do you do in that moment?
I assume they're a standard armed response team, the counter terror team's presumably have more tools at their disposal to defeat car windows quickly? I'd be disappointed if they don't [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 22:53]
|
Given that the car was wanted in connection with a shooting, and the agressive and dangerous reaction, I dont think it was a cock up.
It certainly wasnt an obviously wrong judgment call. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 23:37 - Oct 22 with 1405 views | MattinLondon |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:03 - Oct 22 by bazza |
I just don’t believe in justice for utter scum bags. I understand how and why it’s done that way.. just wish their was an alternative in these types of cases, total scumbags getting protected from their past crimes just seems so wrong. |
People like Kaba are not nice but if we wish to live in a morally just society then the concept of justice has to be available to everyone. We simply cannot pick and choose who has, or hasn’t the right to it, simply because we don’t like them. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 23:59 - Oct 22 with 1382 views | Ryorry |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:52 - Oct 22 by Vegtablue |
There is another problem with this beyond fair justice for all. I agree with the opinion that this case should never have gone to trial, but what about a different scenario in which the defendant was also a scumbag and a danger to society? What if a scumbag officer unlawfully killed a random victim who was later discovered to be a scumbag themselves? We wouldn't want that officer to be given a free pass to reoffend on account of a happy coincidence, because irrelevant revelations about the victim's character influenced the jury. |
That's one reason it went to trial I guess, not least because of the Met's own 'previous'!
For me, the primary issue that my head keeps going back to however is 'why on earth would someone who was conscious & physically able to, *not* comply with armed police's instructions to surrender safely, instead try to recklessly ram their way out?' Can't know what was in Kaba's head of course, but feels to me like there may have been an element of him taunting them & not particularly caring about the outcome. |  |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 00:12 - Oct 23 with 1373 views | bournemouthblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 23:29 - Oct 22 by redrickstuhaart |
Given that the car was wanted in connection with a shooting, and the agressive and dangerous reaction, I dont think it was a cock up.
It certainly wasnt an obviously wrong judgment call. |
At no stage have I said it was the wrong decision, it was cock up because he died ultimately
They would have wanted to take him alive, if he says the shot wasn't intended to kill, he probably was right
That for me is a cock up
By the letter of the law, I'm fully onside with the officer taking the shot and understand why firearms officers were threatening to give up their licences should he have been convicted, they want some protections given how difficult that job is [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 0:17]
| |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Chris Kaba verdict on 00:15 - Oct 23 with 1369 views | bournemouthblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 23:59 - Oct 22 by Ryorry |
That's one reason it went to trial I guess, not least because of the Met's own 'previous'!
For me, the primary issue that my head keeps going back to however is 'why on earth would someone who was conscious & physically able to, *not* comply with armed police's instructions to surrender safely, instead try to recklessly ram their way out?' Can't know what was in Kaba's head of course, but feels to me like there may have been an element of him taunting them & not particularly caring about the outcome. |
It was a moumentally stupid decision on his part, I understand entirely why the family is upset, it's probably the wrong time for them to be making any comments to be quite honest, they are going to be hurting
Who knows what the logic was in his head, if there was any at all, maybe adrenaline kicked in
But normally when you see a muzzle near your window, police on all sides and presumably clear warnings shouted at him, why was he still trying to escape?
The mind boggles [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 0:17]
| |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 03:51 - Oct 23 with 1303 views | tcblue |
That this police officer was found not guilty of murder doesn't mean that he necessarily performed his job to the required standards (nor mean the police isn't institutionally racist - I have plenty of first hand "never been involved in crime but had plenty of trouble with the law" experiences).
I haven't read the whole thread but the chap whom practices law who wrote about a different type of charge being better for these types or cases was interesting to read | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 04:17 - Oct 23 with 1283 views | Benters |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 22:57 - Oct 22 by Churchman |
It’s about the decision the police officer made in the circumstances he and his colleagues were in. They had no idea whether this mush had a hand gun, sawn off or a cheeseburger on the seat. The man was warned, he did what he did and ended his own life. It’s as simple as that. No debate for me. No jury required, no charges, no screaming for ‘justice’. Just an inquiry into how, what and why.
If what is reported is right and he was a murdering bit of dirt, I for one am glad he’s off the planet. But that is irrelevant. It was only ever about the situation the police had to deal with at the time.
What were the alternatives? They don’t have the gift of foresight so are left with wait and see what the man does next and hope he’s not going to kill - or deal with it.
It’s actually the policeman I feel sorry for. His career is done and it wouldn’t surprise me if he and family were not hounded for the foreseeable. |
Spot on👍 |  |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 04:50 - Oct 23 with 1271 views | Benters |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 10:11 - Oct 22 by gtsb1966 |
The thing that gets me are the statements from the family and protest groups. Not once have I read a statement where they state that Mr Kaba was in the wrong and if he hadn't done what he did none of this would've happened. This one sums it up for me.
Mr Kaba's family said they were devastated by the verdict, and that the acquittal of Mr Blake "wasn't just a failure for our family, but for all those affected by police violence".
What about Mr Kaba's violence. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 10:12]
|
Spot on. | |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:23 - Oct 23 with 1177 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 21:53 - Oct 22 by GlasgowBlue |
Everyone who stands before the courts is innocent until proven guilty. Regardless of whatever crimes they have been convicted of in the past, each case should be heard on it's own merit with the evidence available. Otherwise the case is prejudiced.
That's not a defence of Kaba, who is an absolute scumbag.
I also agree with Lowhouse and others who have said that this officer should never have had to go through a criminal trial in the first place. I think the CPS may have been under pressure from some of the statements made by various organisations, including the Mayor of London at the time which pretty much hung his officer out to dry. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 21:57]
|
The CPS is an independent prosecuting authority.
In order to bring proceedings it has to be satisfied that there is a "realistic prospect of conviction". This means that a jury or a bench of magistrates, properly directed in accordance with the law, will be more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge alleged.
This must have been the case in the current trial, and, in my view, means that nothing that Sadiq Khan (or anyone else) may have said will have had any bearing on reaching this judgment. |  | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:30 - Oct 23 with 1157 views | itfcjoe |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 15:12 - Oct 22 by JakeITFC |
What I would do isn’t in question as I wouldn’t put myself in the position of the policeman - that is an incredibly high pressure, high risk job and it must be horrendous to have to live with the consequences (whether the shooting was just or not) of one’s actions. Despite all of that, I do think they have a responsibility to act within the law, and in this instance shooting the guy dead seemed a very early measure to have taken.
Unfortunately in this instance context is important - the Met have a record of both treating black people unfairly and killing people in a way that could be considered unlawful (and then getting away with it). |
But this feels more hindrance than help for the long term for both policeman and black people.
A case that should never have gone to court, and only does because he’s black and they don’t want accusations, one that’s blown out quickly, then one where all these further details emerge.
People on oneside see it as total justification and the culture war intensifies, people on the other feel the need to try and continue justifying why he should have been done for murder |  |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:34 - Oct 23 with 1142 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 00:12 - Oct 23 by bournemouthblue |
At no stage have I said it was the wrong decision, it was cock up because he died ultimately
They would have wanted to take him alive, if he says the shot wasn't intended to kill, he probably was right
That for me is a cock up
By the letter of the law, I'm fully onside with the officer taking the shot and understand why firearms officers were threatening to give up their licences should he have been convicted, they want some protections given how difficult that job is [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 0:17]
|
Not so much a cock up. When the bullet hit the windscreen part of that bullet “peeled off” and hit Kaba in the head. |  |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:39 - Oct 23 with 1119 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 03:51 - Oct 23 by tcblue |
That this police officer was found not guilty of murder doesn't mean that he necessarily performed his job to the required standards (nor mean the police isn't institutionally racist - I have plenty of first hand "never been involved in crime but had plenty of trouble with the law" experiences).
I haven't read the whole thread but the chap whom practices law who wrote about a different type of charge being better for these types or cases was interesting to read |
That was me, and the reason I said it was that police officers appear to have effective immunity at present, no matter what they do.
In saying this, I recognise the difficult position that the police can be put in, and the fact that it might be thought that a murder or manslaughter charge in such circumstances may seem a bit too harsh. That was why I suggested a lesser, bespoke charge for cases (such as the Tomlinson case) of inappropriate police behaviour.
However, as might be expected, the direction of travel appears to be going in a way that I would not want if this is anything to go by.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/22/police-chiefs-government-make-ha
Police chiefs have formally asked the government to make it harder to investigate and prosecute officers after the fatal shooting of Chris Kaba led to a Scotland Yard sergeant being acquitted of murder, the Guardian has learned.
Campaigners have criticised the move, saying calls to redraw the rules were a cynical attempt by police leaders to secure “effective immunity” for their officers. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 7:40]
| | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:42 - Oct 23 with 1103 views | itfcjoe |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 23:59 - Oct 22 by Ryorry |
That's one reason it went to trial I guess, not least because of the Met's own 'previous'!
For me, the primary issue that my head keeps going back to however is 'why on earth would someone who was conscious & physically able to, *not* comply with armed police's instructions to surrender safely, instead try to recklessly ram their way out?' Can't know what was in Kaba's head of course, but feels to me like there may have been an element of him taunting them & not particularly caring about the outcome. |
He didn’t comply because he had shot and killed someone a few days earlier and knew of caught he’s seeing the inside of a cell for a long stretch - this isn’t a mistake it’s a desperate attempt to flee and escape his fate.
It’s not the same mindset as you or I being pulled over | |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:44 - Oct 23 with 1099 views | DJR |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:30 - Oct 23 by itfcjoe |
But this feels more hindrance than help for the long term for both policeman and black people.
A case that should never have gone to court, and only does because he’s black and they don’t want accusations, one that’s blown out quickly, then one where all these further details emerge.
People on oneside see it as total justification and the culture war intensifies, people on the other feel the need to try and continue justifying why he should have been done for murder |
People keep saying it shouldn't have gone to court but legally that is not true.
The CPS will have concluded there was a "realistic prospect of conviction". This test means that a jury or a bench of magistrates, properly directed in accordance with the law, will be more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge alleged. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 7:44]
| | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:49 - Oct 23 with 1082 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 20:52 - Oct 22 by MattinLondon |
This is going to sound like I’m defending the man which I’m not.
But from a psychological viewpoint I do wonder how many innocent people would have done the same. Just simply panic out of fear due to the presence of armed police. |
Do you have any evidence that would lead you to think this? I have no idea, but it seems obvious to me if armed police are shouting at you to stop you stop. I can't think of anything more likely to make me stop!
And baring in mind I'm an innocent person - I think most innocent people would do what the police say. This 'he might've panicked' angle has been tried a couple of times but let's not forget he'd shot someone on a dancefloor previously and it's claimed he was the head of a gang - probably the least likely type of person to panic when faced by the police. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:58 - Oct 23 with 1037 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:39 - Oct 23 by DJR |
That was me, and the reason I said it was that police officers appear to have effective immunity at present, no matter what they do.
In saying this, I recognise the difficult position that the police can be put in, and the fact that it might be thought that a murder or manslaughter charge in such circumstances may seem a bit too harsh. That was why I suggested a lesser, bespoke charge for cases (such as the Tomlinson case) of inappropriate police behaviour.
However, as might be expected, the direction of travel appears to be going in a way that I would not want if this is anything to go by.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/oct/22/police-chiefs-government-make-ha
Police chiefs have formally asked the government to make it harder to investigate and prosecute officers after the fatal shooting of Chris Kaba led to a Scotland Yard sergeant being acquitted of murder, the Guardian has learned.
Campaigners have criticised the move, saying calls to redraw the rules were a cynical attempt by police leaders to secure “effective immunity” for their officers. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 7:40]
|
PC Blake was subjected to a full independent investigation by the IOPC. The CPS prosecuted him for murder and he stood trial at the Old Bailey, where he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers.
That process is far from your view that “ police officers appear to have effective immunity at present, no matter what they do”.
I’m not sure having a lesser charge would be particularly helpful either. The verdict was reached on the basis of whether PC Blake intended to kill Kaba or not but in the basis that he took the shot as he believed other officers were in danger at the time. | |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:01 - Oct 23 with 1015 views | Churchman |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:34 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue |
Not so much a cock up. When the bullet hit the windscreen part of that bullet “peeled off” and hit Kaba in the head. |
The only cock up was the one Kaba made. He chose to do what he did and paid the price.
As a society, we have to decide whether crime and stopping criminals is important. The last government deemed serious crime not a priority. I believe it is, as is minor crime. Let’s face it, the Tories took an axe to the police force and also pulled the teeth from it in many ways.
If protecting society is of any merit the people doing it need resources, backing, better structures, training, support. What they don’t need is life ruining exposure like this policeman has received. We don’t have the money? Yes we do in a £3tn economy. It’s choices. We certainly found the money to bring this man to trial and had no problem bearing the opportunity cost of him not being at work.
The police are there to protect us. Some people think we’d be better off without them. I’m not one of them.
As for firing weapons, it requires an enormous amount of skill, as anyone who’s done it will tell you. It isn’t like a video game or fairground game for a toy elephant. In that situation, I think the policeman should have got praise, not what he received. Would anyone out there do his job with less than zero backing? I wouldn’t in a million years. | | | |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:09 - Oct 23 with 975 views | lowhouseblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 19:30 - Oct 22 by DJR |
These are the grounds for charging.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/principles-we-follow
"The Code for Crown Prosecutors sets out the basic principles to be followed by Crown Prosecutors when they make case decisions. The decision on whether or not to charge a case against a suspect is based on the Full Code Test as outlined in the Code. The Full Code Test has two stages:
The evidential stage
This is the first stage in the decision to prosecute. Crown Prosecutors must be satisfied that there is enough evidence to provide a "realistic prospect of conviction" against each defendant on each charge. They must consider whether the evidence can be used and is reliable. They must also consider what the defence case may be and how that is likely to affect the prosecution case. A "realistic prospect of conviction" is an objective test. It means that a jury or a bench of magistrates, properly directed in accordance with the law, will be more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge alleged. (This is a separate test from the one that criminal courts themselves must apply. A jury or magistrates' court should only convict if it is sure of a defendant's guilt.) If the case does not pass the evidential stage, it must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.
The public interest stage
If the case does pass the evidential stage, Crown Prosecutors must then decide whether a prosecution is needed in the public interest. They must balance factors for and against prosecution carefully and fairly. Some factors may increase the need to prosecute but others may suggest that another course of action would be better. A prosecution will usually take place however, unless there are public interest factors tending against prosecution which clearly outweigh those tending in favour. The CPS will only start or continue a prosecution if a case has passed both stages."
This explains the murder charge.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2024/oct/22/chris-kaba-death-why-police-officer-
As it is, I suggested early in this thread a lesser charge than murder or manslaughter (reflecting the difficult position of the police) to cover those cases, say, where an inquest jury decides there is an unlawful killing but a murder or manslaughter prosecution may be difficult or impossible to succeed..
The case of Ian Tomlinson springs to mind.
Tomlinson collapsed and died after being struck by a police officer during the 2009 G-20 summit protests. After an inquest jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing, the officer, Simon Harwood, was prosecuted for manslaughter. He was found not guilty but was dismissed from the police service for gross misconduct. [Post edited 22 Oct 2024 19:38]
|
that's lovely. i hate to break this to you, but an organisation in its principles claiming that something is an 'objective test' doesn't mean that in practice the test is applied objectively and is uninfluenced by other considerations. organisations aren't beyond criticism just by having a clear statement of what it is that they are SUPPOSED to be doing. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:10 - Oct 23 with 969 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:44 - Oct 23 by DJR |
People keep saying it shouldn't have gone to court but legally that is not true.
The CPS will have concluded there was a "realistic prospect of conviction". This test means that a jury or a bench of magistrates, properly directed in accordance with the law, will be more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge alleged. [Post edited 23 Oct 2024 7:44]
|
Usually that's the case but do you genuinely think that's true in this instance - the CPS concluded the police officer would be found guilty of murder, knowing all the facts we know? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 08:11 - Oct 23 with 959 views | tcblue |
| Chris Kaba verdict on 07:58 - Oct 23 by GlasgowBlue |
PC Blake was subjected to a full independent investigation by the IOPC. The CPS prosecuted him for murder and he stood trial at the Old Bailey, where he was found not guilty by a jury of his peers.
That process is far from your view that “ police officers appear to have effective immunity at present, no matter what they do”.
I’m not sure having a lesser charge would be particularly helpful either. The verdict was reached on the basis of whether PC Blake intended to kill Kaba or not but in the basis that he took the shot as he believed other officers were in danger at the time. |
With the greatest respect, do you think police officers are held to the same standards as others, in the event of being accused of wrongdoing? | | | |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
