| Reform 06:58 - May 2 with 28877 views | Benters |
Well done.
They don’t like it up em 👍🇬🇧 |  |
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| Reform on 11:38 - May 2 with 1574 views | blueasfook |
| Reform on 11:32 - May 2 by Libero |
Heinously poor comprehension from you- embarrassing.
Don’t like being called racist? Stop voting for racists.
Didn’t vote for a racist? Stop being offended on behalf of others. [Post edited 2 May 11:33]
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Oh dear. You're so entrenched in your narrow view, you can't see beyond that. That's a shame. |  |
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| Reform on 11:42 - May 2 with 1537 views | NeedhamChris |
| Reform on 11:32 - May 2 by Libero |
Heinously poor comprehension from you- embarrassing.
Don’t like being called racist? Stop voting for racists.
Didn’t vote for a racist? Stop being offended on behalf of others. [Post edited 2 May 11:33]
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Yep, that level of debate will make the future better for everyone.
I'm not offended on behalf of others. I'm offended on behalf of myself and the future I'll have to live in because people's minds won't be changed by approaches like yours. |  |
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| Reform on 11:44 - May 2 with 1524 views | StokieBlue |
| Reform on 11:42 - May 2 by NeedhamChris |
Yep, that level of debate will make the future better for everyone.
I'm not offended on behalf of others. I'm offended on behalf of myself and the future I'll have to live in because people's minds won't be changed by approaches like yours. |
Can I ask how you think people's minds will be changed?
People have tried engaging with evidence and facts and it's almost always ignored whilst false claims are believed and perpetuated. Many right leaning political figures constantly promote misinformation and fake news with no consequences and many believe it.
In that scenario, how to you propose we proceed?
SB |  | | |
| Reform on 11:46 - May 2 with 1500 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Reform on 10:54 - May 2 by blueasfook |
Reform won Runcorn from Labour (where they previously held a large majority). Does that not tell you people aren't happy with what Labour is doing and therefore see no other option. The tories were dispensed with because they couldnt get a grip on it, Labour will suffer the same fate if they too fail to get results. Call it out as "racism" all you like, that's burying your head in the sand about the issue. Many people who are getting behind Reform aren't mouth-frothing racists, but everyday reasonable people who just want to see illegal immigration brought under control. |
Out of interest what are the stats for illegal immigration ove recent times?
Plus never underestimate herd mentality and lack of understanding when it comes to right wing populist party success.
Just remember
Nigel Farage has mixed in very far undemocratic right wing circles
He supports Trump who is undermining democracy in the USA
He drove Brexit which has been an economic disaster
As an MEP he claimed huge amounts of expenses whilst rarely attending
He is an elite ex banker
He stirred trouble post the recent horrible child murders
He has 10 jobs outside being an MP
He hasn't, I believe, held any surgeries for his constituents in Clacton
And Lee Anderson is probably worse, suspended by the Tories for islamaphobic slurs against the Mayor of London.
So who thinks these are good people to empower?
People who vote for them need to take responsibility for what they are doing rather than blame other parties |  | | |
| Reform on 11:48 - May 2 with 1479 views | Herbivore |
| Reform on 10:57 - May 2 by TractorWood |
From Blair onwards, Unis have become money spinners built on ludicrous fees, spurious demand for spurious degrees and masters etc, Rest of World students who pay a premium over UK students and the purpose built student accommodation bubble.
This props up absurdly paid middle and senior management. There is clearly going to be a slow or rapid burst of the bubble. |
Research and the HE sector generally is one of the few areas where the UK has managed to maintain a reputation for being world leading. The Tories tried to destroy that by essentially freezing funding for a decade and then stifling the one area where they could reliably bolster their revenue. Your characterisation of HE sounds like it's been lifted straight out of a right wing rag. |  |
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| Reform on 11:49 - May 2 with 1478 views | itfcjoe |
| Reform on 11:25 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
your 3 million figure here understates the situation. hugely more than 3 million people have 'come here' in the past 4 years. 3 million is the NET figure allowing for the people who have left. 3 million NET immigration over a short period is an absolutely astonishing number. it is legal immigration but is totally out of control. we have a housing crisis - where do an additional 3 million people live and if we can house an extra 3 million in 4 years in what sense did we have a housing crisis? plus the estimate is that there is a further 1 million people who are here illegally - overstaying visas etc. we have 1.2 million people here of non-uk nationality between 18 and 64, excluding students, who are not in employment. how does that make sense? and then people's only response to reform winning is to call voters racist. [Post edited 2 May 11:26]
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And when things don't work, when all the major parties say immigration is too high, when there is clearly no national workforce plan - then people are going to be p155ed off.
If someone votes for parties who say they will reduce it, and then it increase 3 fold, then they say they will reduce it again so they vote again and it goes up by another factor of 2.
There is talk of no positive case being made for immigration, and this is true, but just doing what they say the will do in manifestos and election promises are more important |  |
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| Reform on 11:49 - May 2 with 1472 views | NeedhamChris |
| Reform on 11:44 - May 2 by StokieBlue |
Can I ask how you think people's minds will be changed?
People have tried engaging with evidence and facts and it's almost always ignored whilst false claims are believed and perpetuated. Many right leaning political figures constantly promote misinformation and fake news with no consequences and many believe it.
In that scenario, how to you propose we proceed?
SB |
If I knew the answer to that - I'd have better things to do than be on here!
You’re right that a lot of people aren’t swayed by evidence anymore, but they’re definitely not swayed by being abused, talked down to or morally condemned either.
Would you agree on that as a starting point? | |
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| Reform on 11:51 - May 2 with 1460 views | bsw72 |
| Reform on 10:19 - May 2 by DJR |
The Reform UK website appears to be lacking any policies but this is what their general election said about "the boats"
"Stop the Boats with our 4 Point Plan
. Leave the European Convention on Human Rights.
. Zero illegal immigrants to be resettled in the UK.
. New Department of Immigration.
. Pick up illegal migrants out of boats and take them back to France"
The first point is clearly necessary to achieve points 2 and 4, so it would be interesting to know if any on here professing support for Reform would be happy for the UK to leave the ECHR and so join Belarus and Russia as the only countries in Europe to do so.
[Post edited 2 May 10:24]
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If Reform has based their public campaigns around sensible conversations relating to managing immigration then fair enough - but they are constantly muddying the water over legal migration, asylum seekers and illegal migrants *just* to get the nationalist votes.
In 2024 legal migration accounts for ~1.2M people, down by 20% on prior year - the vast majority are needed to run essential services. Lose them and the country struggles as we do not have the skills or the people to plug that gap short term. Asylum seekers adds another ~100K people, of which an estimated 28K come over on the small boats. Reform makes a huge song and dance about that 28K, which is 2% of the total - the whole "stop the boats" nonsense.
Let's look at some other claims by Reform / Farage which are simply not true and unworkable, but aimed to whip up people to vote for them:
Claim: More migrants arrived in Britain in two years than in the previous 944 years.
Reform UK leader Richard Tice claimed that more migrants arrived in the UK during 2022 and 2023 than between the years 1066 and 2010, this was not true. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) reported approximately 2.5 million long-term immigrants during 2022 and 2023. In contrast, between 1855 and 2010, an estimated 32.5 million long-term immigrants arrived in the UK. There is no reliable data on migration figures dating back to 1066, making the comparison baseless.
Claim: The UK can return all migrants crossing the Channel in small boats directly to France.
Another gem but legally unfeasible. Reform UK advocates for intercepting and returning all small boat arrivals to France. However, legal experts have noted that such actions would violate international law including the 1951 Refugee Convention, unless France agrees to accept the returnees, which it currently does not.
Claim: The UK can achieve zero net migration by freezing “non-essential” legal immigration.
Bonkers and highly impractical. Reform UK’s proposal to halt “non-essential” legal immigration seems to forget how the UK relies on foreign workers in critical sectors like healthcare, agriculture, and hospitality. Would most likely lead to labour shortages and economic disruptions.
Claim: Raising employer National Insurance contributions to 20% for foreign workers will incentivize hiring British workers.
This is both discriminatory and economically harmful. Unless Reform go down the route of changing discrimination laws then a policy like this would be seen as discriminatory and illegal. Additionally, it would likely deter businesses from hiring necessary foreign talent again leading to skill shortages and negatively impacting the UK economy.
Claim: The UK can save £150 billion annually by cutting bureaucracy and foreign aid without affecting frontline services.
Reform UK continue to claim that significant savings can be made without impacting essential services. However, the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) has challenged this stating that such savings would likely require substantial cuts to public services, affecting their quantity and/or quality.
I don't believe that all reform voters are racist, I think there are a number of concerned and angry people who are voting for them as they are desperate for change and feel disenfranchised by the other parties.
My concern arises from the fact Reform are trying to get themselves elected on policies which are completely non feasible, knowing that the target audience believe their propaganda and not question the underlying practicality of what is being promised. |  | | |
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| Reform on 11:52 - May 2 with 1451 views | itfcjoe |
| Reform on 11:48 - May 2 by Herbivore |
Research and the HE sector generally is one of the few areas where the UK has managed to maintain a reputation for being world leading. The Tories tried to destroy that by essentially freezing funding for a decade and then stifling the one area where they could reliably bolster their revenue. Your characterisation of HE sounds like it's been lifted straight out of a right wing rag. |
And with what is going on in the US, there must be a huge opportunity for the UK to grow in this field if someone was willing to reach out and grasp it | |
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| Reform on 11:53 - May 2 with 1446 views | leitrimblue |
| Reform on 11:25 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
your 3 million figure here understates the situation. hugely more than 3 million people have 'come here' in the past 4 years. 3 million is the NET figure allowing for the people who have left. 3 million NET immigration over a short period is an absolutely astonishing number. it is legal immigration but is totally out of control. we have a housing crisis - where do an additional 3 million people live and if we can house an extra 3 million in 4 years in what sense did we have a housing crisis? plus the estimate is that there is a further 1 million people who are here illegally - overstaying visas etc. we have 1.2 million people here of non-uk nationality between 18 and 64, excluding students, who are not in employment. how does that make sense? and then people's only response to reform winning is to call voters racist. [Post edited 2 May 11:26]
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But haven't a few reform fans on here said they have no problem with legal immigration (3 million) and that its only 'illegal' immigration (35,000) there against? |  | | |
| Reform on 11:56 - May 2 with 1427 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reform on 11:49 - May 2 by itfcjoe |
And when things don't work, when all the major parties say immigration is too high, when there is clearly no national workforce plan - then people are going to be p155ed off.
If someone votes for parties who say they will reduce it, and then it increase 3 fold, then they say they will reduce it again so they vote again and it goes up by another factor of 2.
There is talk of no positive case being made for immigration, and this is true, but just doing what they say the will do in manifestos and election promises are more important |
absolutely. and it is corrosive of trust in democracy. we have one of the biggest social changes in decades being pushed through with absolutely no democratic mandate. it is very clear that by a large majority the public opposes uncontrolled mass immigration and yet successive governments enable it while promising not to. i've previously posted analysis of census data which shows the proportion of social housing now occupied by non-uk nationals by local government ward. in lots of woking class areas it's now over two thirds - i'm willing to bet those are areas where reform does well. but working class people are just racists so let's ignore it. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Reform on 11:57 - May 2 with 1412 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reform on 11:53 - May 2 by leitrimblue |
But haven't a few reform fans on here said they have no problem with legal immigration (3 million) and that its only 'illegal' immigration (35,000) there against? |
i don't know - but i'm not impressed by their logic if so. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Reform on 12:02 - May 2 with 1369 views | vapour_trail |
| Reform on 11:56 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
absolutely. and it is corrosive of trust in democracy. we have one of the biggest social changes in decades being pushed through with absolutely no democratic mandate. it is very clear that by a large majority the public opposes uncontrolled mass immigration and yet successive governments enable it while promising not to. i've previously posted analysis of census data which shows the proportion of social housing now occupied by non-uk nationals by local government ward. in lots of woking class areas it's now over two thirds - i'm willing to bet those are areas where reform does well. but working class people are just racists so let's ignore it. |
working class people are just racists.
You’re making this sh1t up. Literally nobody has ever suggested this but you allude to it all the time.
Part of the problem. |  |
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| Reform on 12:18 - May 2 with 1304 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reform on 12:02 - May 2 by vapour_trail |
working class people are just racists.
You’re making this sh1t up. Literally nobody has ever suggested this but you allude to it all the time.
Part of the problem. |
For example, on page one of this thread: "People will vote for them anyway ... they only care about kicking brown people out of the country."
if you really haven't seen people who vote for reform labelled as racists your reading is really very selective. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Reform on 12:23 - May 2 with 1276 views | leitrimblue |
| Reform on 12:18 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
For example, on page one of this thread: "People will vote for them anyway ... they only care about kicking brown people out of the country."
if you really haven't seen people who vote for reform labelled as racists your reading is really very selective. |
But whats that got to do with the working class? Unless your suggesting 100% of reform workers are working class? Or that only those from the working class vote reform? | | | |
| Reform on 12:26 - May 2 with 1257 views | Herbivore |
| Reform on 12:18 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
For example, on page one of this thread: "People will vote for them anyway ... they only care about kicking brown people out of the country."
if you really haven't seen people who vote for reform labelled as racists your reading is really very selective. |
With contortions like that, you should join the circus. | |
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| Reform on 12:28 - May 2 with 1253 views | vapour_trail |
| Reform on 12:18 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
For example, on page one of this thread: "People will vote for them anyway ... they only care about kicking brown people out of the country."
if you really haven't seen people who vote for reform labelled as racists your reading is really very selective. |
How does that translate to anyone saying the working class are racists please? | |
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| Reform on 12:29 - May 2 with 1241 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reform on 12:23 - May 2 by leitrimblue |
But whats that got to do with the working class? Unless your suggesting 100% of reform workers are working class? Or that only those from the working class vote reform? |
oh, online somewhere there will be analysis of voting patterns by social class. when you find some data showing that reform voters are largely graduates in ns-sec analytic classes 1 and 2 do feel free to post it. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Reform on 12:29 - May 2 with 1243 views | Herbivore |
| Reform on 12:28 - May 2 by vapour_trail |
How does that translate to anyone saying the working class are racists please? |
It doesn't. It's Lowie's usual drip feeding of poison into the well. | |
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| Reform on 12:29 - May 2 with 1243 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Reform on 11:51 - May 2 by bsw72 |
If Reform has based their public campaigns around sensible conversations relating to managing immigration then fair enough - but they are constantly muddying the water over legal migration, asylum seekers and illegal migrants *just* to get the nationalist votes.
In 2024 legal migration accounts for ~1.2M people, down by 20% on prior year - the vast majority are needed to run essential services. Lose them and the country struggles as we do not have the skills or the people to plug that gap short term. Asylum seekers adds another ~100K people, of which an estimated 28K come over on the small boats. Reform makes a huge song and dance about that 28K, which is 2% of the total - the whole "stop the boats" nonsense.
Let's look at some other claims by Reform / Farage which are simply not true and unworkable, but aimed to whip up people to vote for them:
Claim: More migrants arrived in Britain in two years than in the previous 944 years.
Reform UK leader Richard Tice claimed that more migrants arrived in the UK during 2022 and 2023 than between the years 1066 and 2010, this was not true. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) reported approximately 2.5 million long-term immigrants during 2022 and 2023. In contrast, between 1855 and 2010, an estimated 32.5 million long-term immigrants arrived in the UK. There is no reliable data on migration figures dating back to 1066, making the comparison baseless.
Claim: The UK can return all migrants crossing the Channel in small boats directly to France.
Another gem but legally unfeasible. Reform UK advocates for intercepting and returning all small boat arrivals to France. However, legal experts have noted that such actions would violate international law including the 1951 Refugee Convention, unless France agrees to accept the returnees, which it currently does not.
Claim: The UK can achieve zero net migration by freezing “non-essential” legal immigration.
Bonkers and highly impractical. Reform UK’s proposal to halt “non-essential” legal immigration seems to forget how the UK relies on foreign workers in critical sectors like healthcare, agriculture, and hospitality. Would most likely lead to labour shortages and economic disruptions.
Claim: Raising employer National Insurance contributions to 20% for foreign workers will incentivize hiring British workers.
This is both discriminatory and economically harmful. Unless Reform go down the route of changing discrimination laws then a policy like this would be seen as discriminatory and illegal. Additionally, it would likely deter businesses from hiring necessary foreign talent again leading to skill shortages and negatively impacting the UK economy.
Claim: The UK can save £150 billion annually by cutting bureaucracy and foreign aid without affecting frontline services.
Reform UK continue to claim that significant savings can be made without impacting essential services. However, the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) has challenged this stating that such savings would likely require substantial cuts to public services, affecting their quantity and/or quality.
I don't believe that all reform voters are racist, I think there are a number of concerned and angry people who are voting for them as they are desperate for change and feel disenfranchised by the other parties.
My concern arises from the fact Reform are trying to get themselves elected on policies which are completely non feasible, knowing that the target audience believe their propaganda and not question the underlying practicality of what is being promised. |
Good post | | | |
| Reform on 12:30 - May 2 with 1236 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reform on 12:28 - May 2 by vapour_trail |
How does that translate to anyone saying the working class are racists please? |
online somewhere there will be analysis of voting patterns by social class. when you find some data showing that reform voters are largely graduates in ns-sec analytic classes 1 and 2 do feel free to post it. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Reform on 12:36 - May 2 with 1204 views | Herbivore |
| Reform on 12:30 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
online somewhere there will be analysis of voting patterns by social class. when you find some data showing that reform voters are largely graduates in ns-sec analytic classes 1 and 2 do feel free to post it. |
Drip, drip, drip into the well. | |
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| Reform on 12:41 - May 2 with 1188 views | leitrimblue |
| Reform on 12:29 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
oh, online somewhere there will be analysis of voting patterns by social class. when you find some data showing that reform voters are largely graduates in ns-sec analytic classes 1 and 2 do feel free to post it. |
Wow, so you are suggesing that only the working class vote for reform?
Only the working class have worries about immigration?
So the anti immigration pro Farage rhetoric of The Daily Mail for example, is aimed at its pro Farage anti immigration 100% working class readership?
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| Reform on 12:46 - May 2 with 1160 views | leitrimblue |
| Reform on 12:30 - May 2 by lowhouseblue |
online somewhere there will be analysis of voting patterns by social class. when you find some data showing that reform voters are largely graduates in ns-sec analytic classes 1 and 2 do feel free to post it. |
Online somewhere there will be analysis of voting patterns by social class. When you find some data showing that reform voters are 100% working class feel free to post it. | | | |
| Reform on 12:46 - May 2 with 1151 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reform on 12:36 - May 2 by Herbivore |
Drip, drip, drip into the well. |
you gov calculates that in the 2024 election the proportion of social classes c2de supporting reform was twice the proportion of social classes abc1. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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