'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' 23:42 - Aug 3 with 5957 views | factual_blue | Says poor Archie Battersbee's mother, announcing the legal fight is over. Words. Fail. Me. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 00:06 - Aug 4 with 3694 views | ZXBlue | She is wrong. But for entirely understandable and relatable reasons. And many other kids have been failed by the country's utterly under funded systems. | | | |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 07:38 - Aug 4 with 3452 views | tractordownsouth | On balance I think it’s the right decision but as a parent her reaction is completely understandable. It’s an awful situation all round. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:06 - Aug 4 with 3363 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 07:38 - Aug 4 by tractordownsouth | On balance I think it’s the right decision but as a parent her reaction is completely understandable. It’s an awful situation all round. |
Absolutely, this all boils down to a grieving mother refusing to accept that her son is dead. Its tragic. But ultimately, I'm pleased he can now die with dignity. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:13 - Aug 4 with 3325 views | bluelagos |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 07:38 - Aug 4 by tractordownsouth | On balance I think it’s the right decision but as a parent her reaction is completely understandable. It’s an awful situation all round. |
Spot on. It is possible to disagree with her actions/comments whilst maintaining sympathy for her position, not condeming her and recognising she is in a position where sound judgement is nigh on impossible. Why anyone would choose to condem her is beyond me. Says a lot about them and their judgemental outlook. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:14 - Aug 4 with 3321 views | Ely_Blue |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:06 - Aug 4 by Cheltenham_Blue | Absolutely, this all boils down to a grieving mother refusing to accept that her son is dead. Its tragic. But ultimately, I'm pleased he can now die with dignity. |
As I previously said I think the mothers energy and efforts would be better spent making sure that someone else’s 12 year old doesn’t do the same as hers did to get in the situation in the first place, she has the media attention now and she should use it to raise awareness of these crazy social media dares that has ultimately cost her son his life and caused her and her family untold stress and trouble | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:15 - Aug 4 with 3301 views | GlasgowBlue |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:13 - Aug 4 by bluelagos | Spot on. It is possible to disagree with her actions/comments whilst maintaining sympathy for her position, not condeming her and recognising she is in a position where sound judgement is nigh on impossible. Why anyone would choose to condem her is beyond me. Says a lot about them and their judgemental outlook. |
Indeed. Some people lack empathy for a grieving mother who is desperately fighting to save the life of her child. That says a lot about them. I think we would all exhaust every avenue if it was our own child. Even though, from an outsiders point of view, the poor lad’s quality of life is non existent. What sort of person reads this tragic story and thinks, let’s have a pop at the mother. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:29 - Aug 4 with 3261 views | Mullet | We have to cover debates like this on the RE curriculum, and as a parent you can't imagine her position. I've had a small taste of it with my kids needing medical intervention and doctors and surgeons explaining the risks and I admit I've always insisted the Dr's do whatever they need to. But that was to help not end my kids' life. I'm sure there are parents on here who have lost children and are better placed to empathise, but it's one of those situations where nobody wins isn't it? It seems likely there has been little anyone can say no matter how rationally, that overrides that instinct to hope on the tiniest chance he'd pull through, even as that disappeared. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:29 - Aug 4 with 3269 views | NewcyBlue | Let’s not forget that parents have lost their child. In a very public manner. Lashing out at others is understandable. Mr Battersbee and Ms Dance will never feel whole again. They will always have what ifs. Rather than speculate or judge, we should probably just keep our mouths shut. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:34 - Aug 4 with 3234 views | Samuelowen88 | Heard this morning they had applied to get him moved out of hospital, and into a hospice. Totally understandable. However the doctors had said no, due to the risks it posed to his health..... Not entirely sure I can get my head round that. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:37 - Aug 4 with 3228 views | Coastalblue | I spent 20 minutes or so reading about the Christian Legal Centre last night following your mention on another thread. That was a depressing read. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:49 - Aug 4 with 3162 views | Guthrum |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:34 - Aug 4 by Samuelowen88 | Heard this morning they had applied to get him moved out of hospital, and into a hospice. Totally understandable. However the doctors had said no, due to the risks it posed to his health..... Not entirely sure I can get my head round that. |
Presumably he is hooked up to an array of equipment, which you can't load into an ambulance for the transfer to a hospice (quite apart from the fact the hospital will need them). A controlled switch-off in situ with sufficient (probably not survivable in their own right) levels of painkilling is a different matter to trying to keep him going without that while disconnecting life support and trying to move the lad to another site. A good chance he'd die anyway, but less peacefully. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 09:00 - Aug 4 with 3115 views | BlueBadger |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:34 - Aug 4 by Samuelowen88 | Heard this morning they had applied to get him moved out of hospital, and into a hospice. Totally understandable. However the doctors had said no, due to the risks it posed to his health..... Not entirely sure I can get my head round that. |
Transferring intensive care patients anywhere is inherently dangerous. Moving fully intubated and dying children even more so. The opportunity to do that would have beechen brain stem death was diagnosed months ago when his cardiorespiratory functions would have been considerably stronger. If they're unable to move him now, it's probably because they feel his body stands a realistic chance of finally giving up in transit. Additionally, very few hospices accept intubated patients and the Transferring team would probably be required to extubate and stabilise his body(which would likely involve a degree of invasive treatment) prior to end of life care truly beginning. [Post edited 4 Aug 2022 9:13]
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 09:02 - Aug 4 with 3089 views | BlueBadger |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:29 - Aug 4 by NewcyBlue | Let’s not forget that parents have lost their child. In a very public manner. Lashing out at others is understandable. Mr Battersbee and Ms Dance will never feel whole again. They will always have what ifs. Rather than speculate or judge, we should probably just keep our mouths shut. |
As I said yesterday, nobody wins in these very sad cases. Apart from the parasites who've been leading the family down the garden path all this time. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 09:06 - Aug 4 with 3043 views | BlueBadger |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 00:06 - Aug 4 by ZXBlue | She is wrong. But for entirely understandable and relatable reasons. And many other kids have been failed by the country's utterly under funded systems. |
Her child hasn't been failed though. The highest courts on the land have been carefully and sensitively discussing what's in her son's best interests for weeks. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 09:46 - Aug 4 with 2770 views | STYG |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:14 - Aug 4 by Ely_Blue | As I previously said I think the mothers energy and efforts would be better spent making sure that someone else’s 12 year old doesn’t do the same as hers did to get in the situation in the first place, she has the media attention now and she should use it to raise awareness of these crazy social media dares that has ultimately cost her son his life and caused her and her family untold stress and trouble |
Regardless of what logic and rationale might say in the face of expert medical opinion, you simply cannot ask any parent to stop spending their time protecting their child's life and let them go to focus on anything else. Quite simply the chance of him waking up and functioning normally are never zero until he's dead, but they are close to it as possible, one in billions perhaps. But there is still that chance and, given the Christian lawyers involved, it's also presumably the case that the parents may also have religious beliefs that lead them to consider that there is a substantially increased chance. As an atheist, I can still respect and understand that it would be even more difficult for families who have such beliefs to have some kind of faith in a miracle of miracles. I'm sure she inadvertently do countless good and potentially save other lives as a result of this awful situation, but I can't imagine there's any fibre of her being that is concerned about that until the microscopic hope is no longer there. | | | |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 09:57 - Aug 4 with 2750 views | IpswichKnight |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 09:06 - Aug 4 by BlueBadger | Her child hasn't been failed though. The highest courts on the land have been carefully and sensitively discussing what's in her son's best interests for weeks. |
The boy was also given a public guardian to represent him in all proceedings as are all children in non criminal cases involving public bodies ( the girl were adopting has a public guardian independent of us and independent of the local council who can object to any of the courts proceedings if they believe it’s in the child’s interests). In this case I believe he had one of the most experienced public guardians in the country. | | | |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 10:14 - Aug 4 with 2662 views | fab_lover |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:14 - Aug 4 by Ely_Blue | As I previously said I think the mothers energy and efforts would be better spent making sure that someone else’s 12 year old doesn’t do the same as hers did to get in the situation in the first place, she has the media attention now and she should use it to raise awareness of these crazy social media dares that has ultimately cost her son his life and caused her and her family untold stress and trouble |
Hmm. This narrative about a social media dare is unreliable. The kid was found hanging from a bannister with a dressing gown cord around his neck. The incident was not filmed by him (which would be the case if it was a "stunt" going on social media). I have every sympathy for the parents, obviously, but the case has been funded by extremist Christian groups lobbying to prove "a heartbeat is a life" for their anti-abortion agendas. [EDIT] to back those claims up: Court ruling, see point 11: https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Archie-Batteresbee-judgment- Funding of the case: https://christianconcern.com/comment/archie-battersbee-he-deserves-a-fighting-ch [Post edited 4 Aug 2022 10:19]
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 10:49 - Aug 4 with 2507 views | DanTheMan |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 09:46 - Aug 4 by STYG | Regardless of what logic and rationale might say in the face of expert medical opinion, you simply cannot ask any parent to stop spending their time protecting their child's life and let them go to focus on anything else. Quite simply the chance of him waking up and functioning normally are never zero until he's dead, but they are close to it as possible, one in billions perhaps. But there is still that chance and, given the Christian lawyers involved, it's also presumably the case that the parents may also have religious beliefs that lead them to consider that there is a substantially increased chance. As an atheist, I can still respect and understand that it would be even more difficult for families who have such beliefs to have some kind of faith in a miracle of miracles. I'm sure she inadvertently do countless good and potentially save other lives as a result of this awful situation, but I can't imagine there's any fibre of her being that is concerned about that until the microscopic hope is no longer there. |
As far as I read from this case, there is literally no recovery chance. The poor child is being kept alive artificially. His brain has started going down his spine from what I've read. I feel desperately sorry for the parents, and of course they are going to do everything they can. At the same time, I agree with BB that the Christian Legal Centre are fairly predatory, and used to push an agenda. I really don't understand how keeping a body alive in this manner is considered in any way Christian, and this is coming from someone who was raised as one. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 11:01 - Aug 4 with 2447 views | Steve_M |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 10:49 - Aug 4 by DanTheMan | As far as I read from this case, there is literally no recovery chance. The poor child is being kept alive artificially. His brain has started going down his spine from what I've read. I feel desperately sorry for the parents, and of course they are going to do everything they can. At the same time, I agree with BB that the Christian Legal Centre are fairly predatory, and used to push an agenda. I really don't understand how keeping a body alive in this manner is considered in any way Christian, and this is coming from someone who was raised as one. |
This is a good thread on the medical situation and also the fairly awful media coverage:
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 11:11 - Aug 4 with 2403 views | DanTheMan |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 11:01 - Aug 4 by Steve_M | This is a good thread on the medical situation and also the fairly awful media coverage:
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Just started reading through the court document, it's not a good picture at all. The two issues raised show clearly the lack of trust the family has in the very experienced clinicians caring for Archie. I noted from the nursing notes found in the medical records that Archie’s mother preferred to search for answers on the internet or from people who had contacted her rather than accepting what the specialist doctors treating Archie and who have care of him on a daily basis were saying. I have had no reason to doubt over the last three weeks when I have heard evidence on three occasions from the three main clinicians treating Archie that they want what is best for him It's really sad. Doctors being accused of starving him as well. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 11:13 - Aug 4 with 2394 views | BlueBadger |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 09:46 - Aug 4 by STYG | Regardless of what logic and rationale might say in the face of expert medical opinion, you simply cannot ask any parent to stop spending their time protecting their child's life and let them go to focus on anything else. Quite simply the chance of him waking up and functioning normally are never zero until he's dead, but they are close to it as possible, one in billions perhaps. But there is still that chance and, given the Christian lawyers involved, it's also presumably the case that the parents may also have religious beliefs that lead them to consider that there is a substantially increased chance. As an atheist, I can still respect and understand that it would be even more difficult for families who have such beliefs to have some kind of faith in a miracle of miracles. I'm sure she inadvertently do countless good and potentially save other lives as a result of this awful situation, but I can't imagine there's any fibre of her being that is concerned about that until the microscopic hope is no longer there. |
Generally, the only way you can save lives in abrain stem death situation isby ensuring that organ donations happen. | |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 11:22 - Aug 4 with 2360 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 11:13 - Aug 4 by BlueBadger | Generally, the only way you can save lives in abrain stem death situation isby ensuring that organ donations happen. |
I am a little confused here and I haven't followed the case closely so may be missing something but you state that he is brain stem dead. I thought that was the legal definition of death - is it not? Surely, if he is legally dead, there is no case around whether to maintain life support. I am surprised by the idea suggested above that anyone can put forward an argument that a heartbeat is life. The heart beat is being maintained artificially and when the heart stops someone is not dead. Relating that to the anti-abortion argument is a fallacy too. EDIT: having read Fab's edit above I think the argument is that brain stem death is not an exact science and that irreversible absence of a heartbeat was the accepted norm previously. I see no equivalence being made with pre-natal life being determined by heartbeat at all. The bigger argument is the ability to live outside the womb and to experience pain at ages younger than abortion is allowed. In short, has he been pronounced brain stem dead? Is this not the legal definition for death? FURTHER EDIT: Reading the judgment that Fab has shared above, I think it appears that the doctors are unable to declare brain stem death without the court approving it. If they do, then there is no further discussion and the machine can be disconnected. [Post edited 4 Aug 2022 12:41]
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 11:23 - Aug 4 with 2359 views | Whos_blue |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 11:13 - Aug 4 by BlueBadger | Generally, the only way you can save lives in abrain stem death situation isby ensuring that organ donations happen. |
I like this post. The situation is heartbreaking, but I always think that out of a tragedy, something good should come of it. Somehow. Someone also mentioned the parents highlighting the risks of on line challenges, though I've no idea what happened in this case. The family will of course need time to grieve, but it can be done. This parent lost her son in a drowning incident and has become an amazing campaigner for water safety. https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/326/petitions-committee/news/160905/p [Post edited 4 Aug 2022 11:25]
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| Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness. |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 12:22 - Aug 4 with 2215 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
Very eye-opening, I didn't know half of this. Thanks. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 12:36 - Aug 4 with 2161 views | Lord_Lucan |
'our country has failed a 12-year-old child' on 08:13 - Aug 4 by bluelagos | Spot on. It is possible to disagree with her actions/comments whilst maintaining sympathy for her position, not condeming her and recognising she is in a position where sound judgement is nigh on impossible. Why anyone would choose to condem her is beyond me. Says a lot about them and their judgemental outlook. |
It's impossible to put yourself in her situation. As far as I am concerned she can rightly or wrongly lash out at anyone she wants, who am I to criticise. | |
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