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Keno's post also got me thinking about countries that don't exist that could have been really powerful if they existed today.
What do you think would be the most interesting country in terms of changing the political landscape today?
Guidelines are... Try and pick countries that existed for a bit of time of have some cultural ties, as opposed to winning and load of wars and imploding soon after. So yes to the Polish-lithuanian commonwealth but no to nazi Germany.
I'm going for Lotharingia, as it incorporates the "European corridor" that encompasses many of the most profitable cities in Europe.
Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top.
Countries that Don't Exist on 11:20 - May 27 by StokieBlue
Thanks, that's interesting, I'll look that up as I hadn't read it and it sounds like a good read.
I was more thinking that the original 500 Spanish were repelled and the Aztecs spent the next 300-400 years developing naturally. Disease wouldn't be an issue as they would still be within their own civilisation and would be repelling any outside invasions.
Given that caveat I don't see why they couldn't expand north and south, crops would be an issue but as they took over tribes they would integrate whatever they grew (as the Inca did further south).
SB
I enjoyed it, found it quite thought-provoking (although Dan's comment has worried me a bit as I wasn't aware of any strong pushback).
I'm sure I'm forgetting one of his arguments to partly answer that question.
Countries that Don't Exist on 11:54 - May 27 by Steve_M
Is it, I hadn't seen that anywhere although it's a few years since I read it.
My memory though is that, as an anthropologist, Diamond looks at broad themes rather than enough detail to be considered history. Will have a look later see what criticisms I can find.
I can give you a few reddit links to look through. AskHistorians (which is run by actual historians) actually has a section in their wiki dedicated to his book.
Countries that Don't Exist on 12:12 - May 27 by Kropotkin123
Both had ingenious ways. Aztecs had a raft-like farming system - Chinampa. whereas the Incas made steps in the mountains and created drainage systems to naturally push water to irrigate at each step.
[Post edited 27 May 2021 12:13]
Worth pointing out that that the Incas were almost newly arrived themselves when the Spanish turned up and had supplanted previous tribes with a mixture of political organisation and disciplined transport and messenger networks.
Countries that Don't Exist on 11:10 - May 27 by Steve_M
Have you read Guns, Germs and Steel? Jared Diamond posits that it would have been much harder for a civilisation to expand on a north-south axis than an east-west one because the change in climate is much more severe meaning the same crops can't spread.
Thus the agricultural revolution. couldn't have happened in the Americas as it did in Eurasia. And also because settlements did spread laterally then diseases, and over time immunity, were also spread that way. Ultimately it was disease as much as technology that made the European conquest of the Americas relatively straightforward.
Just an interesting tangent to your suggestion.
A little nugget of gold there in the TWTD sifting pan! Really interesting theory that makes a lot of sense. Even with broadly lateral spread, it was the significant change in climate which was a major factor in stopping the Wehrmacht's advance in Russia.
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Countries that Don't Exist on 21:24 - May 27 with 1653 views
Countries that Don't Exist on 11:00 - May 27 by StokieBlue
The Aztecs if they had pushed back properly against a small force of Spanish conquistadors.
From their location in Central America they would have expanded in both directions and held all of North and South America. Given the resources in those territories they could have been hugely powerful given the right discoveries/stealing of tech.
Imagine a united North and South America in the 1850 with industrialisation.
SB
Edit: Just remembered I actually read a book where this was the premise about 25 years ago, I can't remember if it was any good, probably not!
If you're going for the Americas, then the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex (aka the Mound Builders, aka the Southern Cult or Southern Death Cult) needs a mention. A major cultural and trade grouping in the eastern part of what is now the USA. Built very sizeable monuments and produced cohesive art styles, but fell apart, for reasons which are not really known, in the century or so before Europeans first arrived in the region.
Much larger, if far less centralised, than the Aztec state - and considerably longer lived (the latter only lasted for just under a century).
The Mapuche in Chilean Patagonia probably deserve a mention here - I think they were the only native civilisation in South America (maybe even the Americas) which never fell to European colonisation. The Chilean government colonised their lands and subjugated them after independence in the 1800s with the ‘pacification’ of Patagonia, but I think they could’ve been a regional power at least had they remained independent.
Can’t beat the mongol empire in all honesty but one interesting idea. Imagine if the Roman Empire at its height had continued from then onwards as one country. History would have been very different.
The Paz Man
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Countries that Don't Exist on 21:59 - May 27 with 1622 views
Manden Kurufaba. I guess it is still modern day Mali, but when it had control of most its neighbours it would now be a dominant force in Africa. Would therefore have resisted or curbed European slavery and colonisation to survive and be a major player in the Islamic world too.
Plus you would have to wonder how the rest of Africa and its resources would have developed and divided at the expense of everyone else.
Countries that Don't Exist on 21:24 - May 27 by Guthrum
If you're going for the Americas, then the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex (aka the Mound Builders, aka the Southern Cult or Southern Death Cult) needs a mention. A major cultural and trade grouping in the eastern part of what is now the USA. Built very sizeable monuments and produced cohesive art styles, but fell apart, for reasons which are not really known, in the century or so before Europeans first arrived in the region.
Much larger, if far less centralised, than the Aztec state - and considerably longer lived (the latter only lasted for just under a century).
Good shout, although the location for expanding into South America isn't as good as the Aztec as they are at a spot to easily expand in both directions. I am going to read up a bit more on them as I didn't know about them.
Although I guess it depends how far back one goes. We could say that the Mayans could have dominated as they would have had another 1500 years to expand before the Europeans came if they hadn't died out.
Some very interesting plots for alternative timeline books.
SB
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Countries that Don't Exist on 22:07 - May 27 with 1611 views
Countries that Don't Exist on 22:04 - May 27 by StokieBlue
Good shout, although the location for expanding into South America isn't as good as the Aztec as they are at a spot to easily expand in both directions. I am going to read up a bit more on them as I didn't know about them.
Although I guess it depends how far back one goes. We could say that the Mayans could have dominated as they would have had another 1500 years to expand before the Europeans came if they hadn't died out.
Some very interesting plots for alternative timeline books.
SB
Prisoners of Geography might also shed some light on this. The chapter on South America makes a good observation on how the big countries like Brazil developed the coasts but struggled with the interiors.
I wonder if the Aztecs would overcome the geography to expand in this timeline?
Countries that Don't Exist on 22:07 - May 27 by Mullet
Prisoners of Geography might also shed some light on this. The chapter on South America makes a good observation on how the big countries like Brazil developed the coasts but struggled with the interiors.
I wonder if the Aztecs would overcome the geography to expand in this timeline?
That's a good point.
Obviously there is very little to stop them expanding into North America but the dense jungles of the Amazon could be an issue although there were plenty of tribes in there and the Mayans managed to build massive cities in the jungles 1000 years previously. The Andes shouldn't be a problem, the Incas managed to create a huge civilisation throughout them.
On your Mansa Musa point, this is a good podcast if you haven't heard it.
Carthage if it wins the Punic wars. Rome find itself contained to Italy with maybe some foray into Gallic lands or Greece, but Carthage remains supreme in the Western Mediterranean. Bye Bye all Western history and culture as we know it.
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Countries that Don't Exist on 22:59 - May 27 with 1559 views
Countries that Don't Exist on 12:25 - May 27 by Keno
Not particularly connected to this thread but at the height of the Corbyn cult I re-watched the old BBS series 'A Very British Coup', which was actually which amusing
The series I was trying to find was An Englishman's Castle set in the a post Nazi invasion UK
There've been a few books & films on 'alternative outcomes' to WW2 - one chilling one I heard (think it was serialised on BBC R4Extra) was Len Deighton's 'SS GB' -
Countries that Don't Exist on 22:59 - May 27 by Ryorry
There've been a few books & films on 'alternative outcomes' to WW2 - one chilling one I heard (think it was serialised on BBC R4Extra) was Len Deighton's 'SS GB' -
Countries that Don't Exist on 00:48 - May 28 by Guthrum
An interesting treatment of that is in Robert Harris' Fatherland and the 1994 film of the same name, starring Rutger Hauer.
One I keep meaning to get round to. The older I get & the longer the pandemic drags on though, the less able I feel to face escapism of the "challenging" kind - reality seems bad enough!
Countries that Don't Exist on 22:36 - May 27 by Kievthegreat
Carthage if it wins the Punic wars. Rome find itself contained to Italy with maybe some foray into Gallic lands or Greece, but Carthage remains supreme in the Western Mediterranean. Bye Bye all Western history and culture as we know it.
That is a superb shout
... Although with a name like Kiev, I was expecting Ruthenia.
[Post edited 28 May 2021 12:20]
Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top.
Countries that Don't Exist on 11:54 - May 27 by Steve_M
Is it, I hadn't seen that anywhere although it's a few years since I read it.
My memory though is that, as an anthropologist, Diamond looks at broad themes rather than enough detail to be considered history. Will have a look later see what criticisms I can find.
I suggest Diamond as completely failed to understand the early Neolithic spread of farming through Europe and is thus perhaps not the best person to attempt to explain or critique a theoretical spread of farming through the Americas. This is probably not helped by the fact anthropologists in general tend to spend the majority of there time studying Hunter gatherer or even pastoralist groups rather then early farmers.
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Countries that Don't Exist on 14:46 - May 28 with 1374 views
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