| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... 15:27 - Jul 7 with 18437 views | ITFCBlues |
Why are we bothering with the academy? Seems pointless if you're letting your best players walk for peanuts. |  |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:13 - Jul 7 with 2020 views | itfcjoe |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:11 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
I've already answered why Joe in the same post.
Feel free to use it as a guide if you wish, itll be interesting to look back in 5 years to see how many of the side did indeed go on to better things.
Of course we hope a few make it, but I don't see the cup run being the be all and end all in how to judge an academy and it's players. If we won it every year, different ball game. [Post edited 7 Jul 2021 18:13]
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May as well just write off every youth player and shut the academy, because 1 in 10 makes it even from those who looks like they will if you are lucky.
It’s like saying a manager is rubbish and should go, 9 times out of 10 you’ll be right eventually. |  |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:19 - Jul 7 with 1983 views | chrismakin |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:13 - Jul 7 by itfcjoe |
May as well just write off every youth player and shut the academy, because 1 in 10 makes it even from those who looks like they will if you are lucky.
It’s like saying a manager is rubbish and should go, 9 times out of 10 you’ll be right eventually. |
No need to shut the Academy, it needs work going forwards however. Definately need to finance a Cat 1 so hopefuly we aren't bringing through the same players.
But out of interest Joe, from last years Youth Cup side.. how many do you see making it. |  |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:22 - Jul 7 with 1979 views | jayessess |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:19 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
No need to shut the Academy, it needs work going forwards however. Definately need to finance a Cat 1 so hopefuly we aren't bringing through the same players.
But out of interest Joe, from last years Youth Cup side.. how many do you see making it. |
Liam Gibbs is going to a Cat 1 academy, so presumably the level of player we'd be looking to attract by getting Cat 1 would be ... players like Gibbs? |  |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:26 - Jul 7 with 1964 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:04 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
I do wish people didnt use the FA youth cup as a sign of how good a player is or how the Academy is. We've won it before, barely any of that side went on to do anything of note afterwards for starters. It was a great run for the side, and well done to all involved however.
It's a good standard Cat 2 Academy. But it's full of players all to similar, small and fluffy and needs a complete overhaul over the next few years. We are getting a few through which is great, BUT it needs to get better, as Dyer himself mentioned. |
The FA Youth Cup is all we have as a measure of how good the players are as they come to the end of their time in the Academy, and is a test of their skills, fitness and mentality against their peers.
Our current crop does have some larger players amongst them, not least Baggott. |  | | |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:27 - Jul 7 with 1949 views | chrismakin |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:22 - Jul 7 by jayessess |
Liam Gibbs is going to a Cat 1 academy, so presumably the level of player we'd be looking to attract by getting Cat 1 would be ... players like Gibbs? |
Depends what else we would have at that time as a cat 1 Academy.
would he be 1 of 3 for example or 1 of 7 of the same 'types' That's been our biggest issue for years. | |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:34 - Jul 7 with 1940 views | itfcjoe |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:27 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
Depends what else we would have at that time as a cat 1 Academy.
would he be 1 of 3 for example or 1 of 7 of the same 'types' That's been our biggest issue for years. |
You talk about the same type of players but we’ve had these out of our academy in recent years
Woolf - 6’3 centre half
Downes - combative midfielder
Dozzell - ball player
Kenlock - attacking left back
Emmanuel - physical freak string and quick
Nydam - tough versatile player who plays bigger than his size
Dobra - small attacker
El Miz - bigger player who gets round the pitch and presses excellently
Lankester - direct attacker
What is the type of player we are producing, and which ones fit into that character profile? | |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:36 - Jul 7 with 1934 views | RadioOrwell |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 17:37 - Jul 7 by Mullet |
It’s unforgivable. The message it sends and the amount of gormless “back the club” wittering it has generated alone, make it so.
Those desperately casting aspersions on a kid to see whose tongue tip can reach the deepest annals of this new ITFC era need to give themselves a wobble. |
A lot of armchair negotiators here tonight.
A real shame the club didn't deal with these guys. |  | | |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:40 - Jul 7 with 1921 views | Keaneish |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 17:59 - Jul 7 by itfcjoe |
Phil seems to suggest it was a couple of hundred quid a week, that he wanted to stay, and that we offered terms late last year…..there was no renegotiation and we just simply presented the same terms as an offer on the last day of his contract.
Reading between lines it seems that he may a bit miffed that next to no effort was made to keep him after (another) good season, and from club side it was just down the list of priorities.
Probably more mistake than malice, but leaves us in a bad position on it. |
There was / is a lot going on but it’s pretty staggering it came to that if that’s the case, especially if he’s scooped up by the yellow folk. |  |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:57 - Jul 7 with 1881 views | chrismakin |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:34 - Jul 7 by itfcjoe |
You talk about the same type of players but we’ve had these out of our academy in recent years
Woolf - 6’3 centre half
Downes - combative midfielder
Dozzell - ball player
Kenlock - attacking left back
Emmanuel - physical freak string and quick
Nydam - tough versatile player who plays bigger than his size
Dobra - small attacker
El Miz - bigger player who gets round the pitch and presses excellently
Lankester - direct attacker
What is the type of player we are producing, and which ones fit into that character profile? |
As Dyer said, we're not producing enough 'top quality' players, the volume of players in the u23's and Academy is rather large yet in those squads, there's a lot of the 'same' that doesn't mean we haven't had any come through, but it also means there's a fair few that fall by the wayside, some don't get the minutes they need etc. For example you could pick 4/5 midfield combinations from our current u23 and u18 squads and 3 of those 4 would have the exact sort of the player in them, rather than being able to concentrate on 2 a group or 2. hope that makes sense.. I know what im trying to say but not sure if it's coming across right. | |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:06 - Jul 7 with 1876 views | HARRY10 |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:11 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
I've already answered why Joe in the same post.
Feel free to use it as a guide if you wish, itll be interesting to look back in 5 years to see how many of the side did indeed go on to better things.
Of course we hope a few make it, but I don't see the cup run being the be all and end all in how to judge an academy and it's players. If we won it every year, different ball game. [Post edited 7 Jul 2021 18:13]
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The question is, do we have the coaching staff to progress U18s to the first teamVery doubtful if we are struggling to get youth players toi a L1 standard.
What level are the U23s playing - not the level Gibbs will expect to be playing at a PL club, that's for certain.
the bottom line is he has outgrown us, and no doubt recognised the need to step up to a higher level - and no wage increase would have changed that thought.
The scum recognise that, after their youth products left the club to move to a bigger club. And will continue to do so. That is how it works, and has done since the beginning of the professional game.
It is often known as the pecking order, it's just some haven't grasped how far down we slipped under Evans. | | | |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:10 - Jul 7 with 1870 views | JammyDodgerrr |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:57 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
As Dyer said, we're not producing enough 'top quality' players, the volume of players in the u23's and Academy is rather large yet in those squads, there's a lot of the 'same' that doesn't mean we haven't had any come through, but it also means there's a fair few that fall by the wayside, some don't get the minutes they need etc. For example you could pick 4/5 midfield combinations from our current u23 and u18 squads and 3 of those 4 would have the exact sort of the player in them, rather than being able to concentrate on 2 a group or 2. hope that makes sense.. I know what im trying to say but not sure if it's coming across right. |
You're just spouting nothing, really. Joe has produced a list of several players who have gone on to play in the first team, all of a different variety and had an impact in a different way and you've chosen to ignore it. |  |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:12 - Jul 7 with 1866 views | jayessess |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:57 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
As Dyer said, we're not producing enough 'top quality' players, the volume of players in the u23's and Academy is rather large yet in those squads, there's a lot of the 'same' that doesn't mean we haven't had any come through, but it also means there's a fair few that fall by the wayside, some don't get the minutes they need etc. For example you could pick 4/5 midfield combinations from our current u23 and u18 squads and 3 of those 4 would have the exact sort of the player in them, rather than being able to concentrate on 2 a group or 2. hope that makes sense.. I know what im trying to say but not sure if it's coming across right. |
This is absolutely irrelevant to the Gibbs situation though.
Yes, it may well be the case that our academy keeps on some kids for too long, resulting in over-sized youth squads. Yes, there's lots of evidence that player development is more productive with small groups.
But I don't see how the hell losing the best player from his age category, the one getting interest from more successful academies, helps us with that at all! [Post edited 7 Jul 2021 19:13]
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:16 - Jul 7 with 1859 views | jayessess |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:06 - Jul 7 by HARRY10 |
The question is, do we have the coaching staff to progress U18s to the first teamVery doubtful if we are struggling to get youth players toi a L1 standard.
What level are the U23s playing - not the level Gibbs will expect to be playing at a PL club, that's for certain.
the bottom line is he has outgrown us, and no doubt recognised the need to step up to a higher level - and no wage increase would have changed that thought.
The scum recognise that, after their youth products left the club to move to a bigger club. And will continue to do so. That is how it works, and has done since the beginning of the professional game.
It is often known as the pecking order, it's just some haven't grasped how far down we slipped under Evans. |
Some things are a "pecking order" thing, but this doesn't sound like it is? Seems pretty clear he'd have signed if the money were right. | |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:16 - Jul 7 with 1859 views | itfcjoe |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 18:57 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
As Dyer said, we're not producing enough 'top quality' players, the volume of players in the u23's and Academy is rather large yet in those squads, there's a lot of the 'same' that doesn't mean we haven't had any come through, but it also means there's a fair few that fall by the wayside, some don't get the minutes they need etc. For example you could pick 4/5 midfield combinations from our current u23 and u18 squads and 3 of those 4 would have the exact sort of the player in them, rather than being able to concentrate on 2 a group or 2. hope that makes sense.. I know what im trying to say but not sure if it's coming across right. |
Every academy will have similar sort of players, good technical players who lack a bit of physicality - mainly because they are young boys first and foremost and it’s easy filling a team with big and quick players and focussing in results and it gets you nowhere.
You’re just really talking in platitudes with lazy criticisms, we’ve brought through a variety of different players who have all been good enough for where the club is currently - that they haven’t kicked on has often been down to injury but in a lot of cases it’s because the club has been run so chaotically since Mick left that the over arching decisions made have often been at odds with what has been the right thing for developing players. | |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:31 - Jul 7 with 1810 views | chrismakin |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:16 - Jul 7 by itfcjoe |
Every academy will have similar sort of players, good technical players who lack a bit of physicality - mainly because they are young boys first and foremost and it’s easy filling a team with big and quick players and focussing in results and it gets you nowhere.
You’re just really talking in platitudes with lazy criticisms, we’ve brought through a variety of different players who have all been good enough for where the club is currently - that they haven’t kicked on has often been down to injury but in a lot of cases it’s because the club has been run so chaotically since Mick left that the over arching decisions made have often been at odds with what has been the right thing for developing players. |
No Lazy platitudes Joe. You've listed 9 players from a league 1 Academy ( championship only 3 years ago) that imo is nowhere good enough for a club that had struggled financially for years. And of course I agree it was badly managed.. hence the need to sort the Academy out along with everything else. The academy needs to be a priority imo. [Post edited 7 Jul 2021 19:37]
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:36 - Jul 7 with 1791 views | chrismakin |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:10 - Jul 7 by JammyDodgerrr |
You're just spouting nothing, really. Joe has produced a list of several players who have gone on to play in the first team, all of a different variety and had an impact in a different way and you've chosen to ignore it. |
Not at all. I've replied to him. | |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:37 - Jul 7 with 1797 views | itfcjoe |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:31 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
No Lazy platitudes Joe. You've listed 9 players from a league 1 Academy ( championship only 3 years ago) that imo is nowhere good enough for a club that had struggled financially for years. And of course I agree it was badly managed.. hence the need to sort the Academy out along with everything else. The academy needs to be a priority imo. [Post edited 7 Jul 2021 19:37]
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We’ve gone from players not good enough, to them all being the same type of players, to now not producing enough players - if I could be bothered to pull out the stats that show we punch above our weight with regards to a club of our size bringing players through you’d then move the goalposts again.
Facts don’t matter, it’s all about feelings it seems | |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:49 - Jul 7 with 1764 views | chrismakin |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:37 - Jul 7 by itfcjoe |
We’ve gone from players not good enough, to them all being the same type of players, to now not producing enough players - if I could be bothered to pull out the stats that show we punch above our weight with regards to a club of our size bringing players through you’d then move the goalposts again.
Facts don’t matter, it’s all about feelings it seems |
You talk about facts, yet without knowing the facts are bemoaning town 'letting' Gibbs go.
Anyways. Feel free to go stat shopping. The facts as you like to stick to is weve brought in 9 actually 10 players as you missed Bishop through over what 8 years? How many of those are top quality? And its caused by the volume of the Academy being too big and to many players trying to develop in the same positions. Surprised someone so close to the set up is finding this difficult to appreciate. It's been talked about at lengh at the club so maybe do some calling.
Anyways more importantly footballs on
It's coming home! [Post edited 7 Jul 2021 19:52]
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:03 - Jul 8 with 1645 views | timothyeo |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 19:49 - Jul 7 by chrismakin |
You talk about facts, yet without knowing the facts are bemoaning town 'letting' Gibbs go.
Anyways. Feel free to go stat shopping. The facts as you like to stick to is weve brought in 9 actually 10 players as you missed Bishop through over what 8 years? How many of those are top quality? And its caused by the volume of the Academy being too big and to many players trying to develop in the same positions. Surprised someone so close to the set up is finding this difficult to appreciate. It's been talked about at lengh at the club so maybe do some calling.
Anyways more importantly footballs on
It's coming home! [Post edited 7 Jul 2021 19:52]
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I think it sounds like Joe does know the facts that are pertinent to this situation.
Having had a fantastic time with no internet in the countryside for a few days I was really disappointed to hear Gibbs was almost definitely off - especially when I then saw his likely destination.
As to if Gibbs has all the attributes to be good enough? If Norwich are willing to sign him, then it's clear their judgement on youth players has been well beyond our own recently, just looking at who they've developed since Farke & Webber came in - so if they think he's worth a punt then there's a very good chance he's worth a punt.
If it's only over a few hundred £ as Phil and Joe have both reiterated, it really is a pathetic club decision - although in my personal opinion I think more of it is due to the handling of it that's likely p*ssed Gibbs off. | | | |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:08 - Jul 8 with 1633 views | chicoazul |
I’ve been thinking about this a bit recently. I wouldn’t be at all surprised, in fact I expect it to happen, that the new owners close the academy down a la Brentford. If we are signing players like Harper on enormous money and we can afford many more what do we need an academy for anyway? |  |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:14 - Jul 8 with 1620 views | timothyeo |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:08 - Jul 8 by chicoazul |
I’ve been thinking about this a bit recently. I wouldn’t be at all surprised, in fact I expect it to happen, that the new owners close the academy down a la Brentford. If we are signing players like Harper on enormous money and we can afford many more what do we need an academy for anyway? |
I get that it's a genuine possible option - I also get that it's not exactly harmed Brentford - but it wouldn't make me any less disappointed, bordering on disgusted, if it did happen. There is nothing like seeing a young lad from the local community having a big impact on the first team. | | | |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:20 - Jul 8 with 1612 views | itfcjoe |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:08 - Jul 8 by chicoazul |
I’ve been thinking about this a bit recently. I wouldn’t be at all surprised, in fact I expect it to happen, that the new owners close the academy down a la Brentford. If we are signing players like Harper on enormous money and we can afford many more what do we need an academy for anyway? |
We aren't signing on enormous money at the moment, big for L1 but that is small for the Championship - so we will likely hit a financial ceiling at some point.
Brentford model must be a bit under threat due to Brexit - there has been some really ruthless domestic recruitment from Cat 1 clubs this summer as they can't get players in from continent - how Brentford get on from here is interesting - I can't imagine any of their signings in recent years would meet GBE requirements | |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:23 - Jul 8 with 1594 views | Vic |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:20 - Jul 8 by itfcjoe |
We aren't signing on enormous money at the moment, big for L1 but that is small for the Championship - so we will likely hit a financial ceiling at some point.
Brentford model must be a bit under threat due to Brexit - there has been some really ruthless domestic recruitment from Cat 1 clubs this summer as they can't get players in from continent - how Brentford get on from here is interesting - I can't imagine any of their signings in recent years would meet GBE requirements |
“there has been some really ruthless domestic recruitment from Cat 1 clubs this summer as they can't get players in from continent”
So we may not be the only team to have lost a good young player then? |  |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:32 - Jul 8 with 1573 views | itfcjoe |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:23 - Jul 8 by Vic |
“there has been some really ruthless domestic recruitment from Cat 1 clubs this summer as they can't get players in from continent”
So we may not be the only team to have lost a good young player then? |
Most haven't let them walk though!
This is more at younger ages, i.e. those U16 going full time this summer | |
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| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:36 - Jul 8 with 1557 views | chicoazul |
| If we're prepared to let Gibbs walk... on 13:20 - Jul 8 by itfcjoe |
We aren't signing on enormous money at the moment, big for L1 but that is small for the Championship - so we will likely hit a financial ceiling at some point.
Brentford model must be a bit under threat due to Brexit - there has been some really ruthless domestic recruitment from Cat 1 clubs this summer as they can't get players in from continent - how Brentford get on from here is interesting - I can't imagine any of their signings in recent years would meet GBE requirements |
It’s all relative though which is what I meant. I’d be surprised if/when we are in the Championship that we don’t pay ever more big salaries and fees relative to the opposition after all, the owners can afford it as long as the Fundie they liaise with is happy to underwrite everything.
Interesting about Brentford thanks and good point on Brexit. I still think they could close it down although I suppose we did just sell Andre for a million quid. | |
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