| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead 21:54 - Dec 11 with 14237 views | ElderGrizzly |
And Liz Truss odds on to be new PM.
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:36 - Dec 12 with 708 views | positivity |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:09 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
“Inability to compromise!?” That’s insane.
Modern socialism is all about compromise. Because no-one is talking about dismantling capitalism. But ensuring that the benefits are shared more equitably and the risk/liabilities too.
That’s pretty much European social democracy in a nut shell, and we’re almost entirely incapable of breaking out of our narrow trajectory to consider it.
By all means let’s see the compromise that prevents regional, wage, race and age inequalities from increasing, that addresses climate change and the actual challenges of 2021 and the future like AI and automation, secures education, health and welfare so that society isn’t ailing, tackles our worryingly low productivity and balances our wonky economy, addresses our unsustainable housing model that is crippling whole sections of the population, keeps the Union together rather than driving wedges between people and communities ... and on and on.
Who’s promoting real compromise to address these issues? Rather than just electoral compromise to allow a changing of the guard? |
labour are proposing that "the benefits are shared more equitably and the risk/liabilities too" in comparison to the only viable alternatives (tories).
so why not get behind them? what's your realistic alternative? |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:36 - Dec 12 with 706 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 11:33 - Dec 12 by bluelagos |
Minimum wage.
Wrote off 3rd world debt.
Peace in Northern Ireland.
Peace in Sierra Leone.
Independence for the Bank of England.
Scottish devolution.
Civil partnerships.
Banned fox hunting. |
The aqueduct. |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:36 - Dec 12 with 707 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:28 - Dec 12 by pointofblue |
But that’s a long term solution - it’ll take time for enough of the younger generation to feel disenfranchised, to feel like they want another way. And many of the younger generation tend to change views as the grow older; those who were 18 and voted Blair in 1997 will now be in their 40s with a sizeable chunk voting Tories. As people age their political outlook changes depending on their life security.
There could be another election within two years. England is not going to change enough in that time to have anything but Labour v the Conservatives. The choice for now, maybe not fairly, is stark. To turn an oil tanker you have to do it gradually; as painful as it maybe a centralist Labour is probably the only way to twitch the wheel. |
I think that’s closer than you think. Even in 2017 that was a massive cause of Labour regaining millions of vites from 2015 and also it’s maintained the rise of the SNP in Scotland.
These forces are already shaping politics. Which is why the reactionary “grown up” power grab of the Labour Right and quashing this grass-roots democracy in the party has been a) so critical for them, b) so poor as a short-term solution and c) so doomed to long-term failure. And really just damaging for the country as a whole. |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:37 - Dec 12 with 704 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:29 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
The definition of political pragmatism in the UK is ignoring those realities.
If we scratch the surface, I think it’s about people not wanting to pay more tax or that they would otherwise have to give up something for a fairer better society.
It’s the same incentive/disincentive we see expressed in countries like the US and expressed by people right-wing enough to say it in the UK.
“We have to compromise...” Yeah, right. 😀 |
Compromise, or continue as is.
You are essentially voting for the latter. To the detriment of everyone, because you cannot see beyond your dogmatic ideology. | | | |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:40 - Dec 12 with 685 views | positivity |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:35 - Dec 12 by BanksterDebtSlave |
None of which is doing anything for Joe Public. |
the minimum wage has done nothing for joe public?!
i thought your maggie thatcher avatar was opposing her policies, not espousing them! | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:41 - Dec 12 with 674 views | pointofblue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:36 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
I think that’s closer than you think. Even in 2017 that was a massive cause of Labour regaining millions of vites from 2015 and also it’s maintained the rise of the SNP in Scotland.
These forces are already shaping politics. Which is why the reactionary “grown up” power grab of the Labour Right and quashing this grass-roots democracy in the party has been a) so critical for them, b) so poor as a short-term solution and c) so doomed to long-term failure. And really just damaging for the country as a whole. |
Though the left will struggle to gain a voice as an alternative whilst Labour is doing so well in the polls? Is the best possible solution at this stage for the Conservatives to change their leader and regain some lost ground, which will result in questions being asked once again? | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:44 - Dec 12 with 658 views | bluelagos |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:35 - Dec 12 by BanksterDebtSlave |
None of which is doing anything for Joe Public. |
Unless they are on minimum wage, live in NI, Waless or Scotland, are gay and wanted a civil partnership, or benefited from economic policy on interest rates being taken away from the short termist interests of politicians. |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:46 - Dec 12 with 655 views | positivity |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:36 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
I think that’s closer than you think. Even in 2017 that was a massive cause of Labour regaining millions of vites from 2015 and also it’s maintained the rise of the SNP in Scotland.
These forces are already shaping politics. Which is why the reactionary “grown up” power grab of the Labour Right and quashing this grass-roots democracy in the party has been a) so critical for them, b) so poor as a short-term solution and c) so doomed to long-term failure. And really just damaging for the country as a whole. |
the reason the tories were able to get away with such a reactionary right-wing manifesto is the lack of opposition on the centre and centre-left from corbyn.
the damage this tory cabal are doing to the country can't carry on for another 7 year, your pussyfooting about/nudging the dial/waiting for gen z to be able to vote is going to lead to much more self-inflicted damage, deaths & poverty.
get behind the alternative and change it from within, or support your uncaring death cult from the side-lines as the tories run amok | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:53 - Dec 12 with 637 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 11:49 - Dec 12 by bluelagos |
And of course the achievements of a "centre left" Labour govt should then be compared to the damage of a Conservative administration.
Those stating the two are similar live in a different world to me. For sure argue that Labour policy should be further to the left (and I'd agree on a number of issues am sure) but to also claim they are one and same as the Tories simply doesn't really stack up to sensible analysis imho. |
https://lowdownnhs.info/analysis/the-history-of-privatisation-part-5/
"The New Labour approach was later summed up by Blair’s Pensions Secretary John Hutton in a 2007Â speech to the CBIÂ in which he argued that the “core” of the reform programme including “an open minded approach to who provides” — was being “built into the DNAÂ of our public service infrastructure.”
But increasingly it became obvious that ministers were far from open minded; indeed they became ideologically obsessed with bringing in private companies and private hospitals as so-called “partners” — at the expense of sidelining and destabilising existing NHS providers."
Blair started the road to privatisation in health and education (academies). Can't remember the name of the much criticised dodgy financing model he used to get private funding to finance hospital improvements.
Edit...It's P.F.I's ..... in the same link. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 12:56]
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:55 - Dec 12 with 637 views | HARRY10 |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:12 - Dec 12 by tractordownsouth |
I’m realistic enough to know this is unlikely to be the GE result but even in the event of a 2/3 point Tory lead there are some awful people losing their seats. Dominic Raab will be beaten by the Lib Dems and Steve Baker’s seat will go to Labour. Theresa Villiers has a majority of only 1k as it is. I can’t imagine rhyming slang would hold on in Ipswich on those numbers either. |
A few days back it was 98 losing their seats, and as well as those you mention it also included IDS, David Davis and the bloated buffoon himself. Doubtlessly there are more now.
The quandary for Labour is to be seen to be want rid of him, whilst all the time wanting him to stay in power, as he is a one man demolition job.
It is often talked of as Johnson being the teflon man. Nothing sticks to him. Whereas he has been little more than the chancer. Gambling for ever higher stakes.
Whereas someone a little brighter would have cut their losses years back, the buffoon has simply spouted bigger and bigger lies. 'Get brexit done' being the classic point in case. The country has been handed a mess. Nothing like what was promised. It never could be delivered, it was pie in the sky, blatant lying.
And who is now going to pick up the pieces ? This is not London buses, or water cannon as before. This is not £40m lost on a garden bridge, this is the UK economy.
But the real gamblers have been voters. Gambling all on the believe that an habitual liar, a serial incompetent who is not even trusted by his own family would deliver. Would change his behaviour. Well, it looks like you have lost. Big time,
Only you have taken the rest of us with you. What was it on Friday. Yes, brexit cost the country £12 billion in October, with more losses to come each month ahead. | | | |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:57 - Dec 12 with 622 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:36 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
I think that’s closer than you think. Even in 2017 that was a massive cause of Labour regaining millions of vites from 2015 and also it’s maintained the rise of the SNP in Scotland.
These forces are already shaping politics. Which is why the reactionary “grown up” power grab of the Labour Right and quashing this grass-roots democracy in the party has been a) so critical for them, b) so poor as a short-term solution and c) so doomed to long-term failure. And really just damaging for the country as a whole. |
The first past the post system has to go. That, and not IMO a shift in the dynamic of any of the 3 "main" parties nor an increased vote for the Greens, is what will help to transform politics in this country. Of course an increased vote for the Green Party over successive elections may also help that shift in the long term. But in the loing term we are all dead and there are more immediate concerns.
The next election is still a few years away but that is insufficient time for a change in voting system or a Green "revolution". So as we are stuck with FPTP for that election I see little option other than to vote for the candidate who is either a non-Tory incumbent or most likely to oust the sitting Tory. In my constiuency that means not an abstention on ideological grounds nor a LibDem/Green/A N Other vote but a vote for Labour.
What happens after that is moot and must be considered of course but first things first. |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:59 - Dec 12 with 617 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:44 - Dec 12 by bluelagos |
Unless they are on minimum wage, live in NI, Waless or Scotland, are gay and wanted a civil partnership, or benefited from economic policy on interest rates being taken away from the short termist interests of politicians. |
Shame it was so minimal.....interest rates are now serving the short term interests of capital. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:05 - Dec 12 with 595 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:36 - Dec 12 by positivity |
labour are proposing that "the benefits are shared more equitably and the risk/liabilities too" in comparison to the only viable alternatives (tories).
so why not get behind them? what's your realistic alternative? |
The realistic alternative is to use my one vote for an alternative I do believe in. And to continue pushing for a more realistic conversation about the country’s needs from its government.
But I’d turn that around ... where’s the compromise to get the left onside rather than saying there’s no other alternative? And aren’t LibDem voters the real ones to work on anyway? They’re already occupying the so-called middle of the road and not even voting for an alternative. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:09 - Dec 12 with 582 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:05 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
The realistic alternative is to use my one vote for an alternative I do believe in. And to continue pushing for a more realistic conversation about the country’s needs from its government.
But I’d turn that around ... where’s the compromise to get the left onside rather than saying there’s no other alternative? And aren’t LibDem voters the real ones to work on anyway? They’re already occupying the so-called middle of the road and not even voting for an alternative. |
Ideology > realism.
If you can't understand that point, I am not sure what more can be said.
The alternative you seek has no realistic prospect of affecting the result. | | | |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:16 - Dec 12 with 576 views | footers |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:05 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
The realistic alternative is to use my one vote for an alternative I do believe in. And to continue pushing for a more realistic conversation about the country’s needs from its government.
But I’d turn that around ... where’s the compromise to get the left onside rather than saying there’s no other alternative? And aren’t LibDem voters the real ones to work on anyway? They’re already occupying the so-called middle of the road and not even voting for an alternative. |
Indeed. Those screaming about compromise and ideology seem to ignore the fact that Starmer is silencing the left because of his ideology, it's hardly a compromise. |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:17 - Dec 12 with 570 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:16 - Dec 12 by footers |
Indeed. Those screaming about compromise and ideology seem to ignore the fact that Starmer is silencing the left because of his ideology, it's hardly a compromise. |
"Yeah but Starmer".
You really can't see beyond the squabble can you?
And you will therefore be complicit in election of another conservative government. That is the reality. | | | |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:18 - Dec 12 with 568 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:46 - Dec 12 by positivity |
the reason the tories were able to get away with such a reactionary right-wing manifesto is the lack of opposition on the centre and centre-left from corbyn.
the damage this tory cabal are doing to the country can't carry on for another 7 year, your pussyfooting about/nudging the dial/waiting for gen z to be able to vote is going to lead to much more self-inflicted damage, deaths & poverty.
get behind the alternative and change it from within, or support your uncaring death cult from the side-lines as the tories run amok |
I don’t think that stacks up. The principal reason Johnson and his lot got in was because centrists haven’t been reading the room for decades.
Brexit was their sh1tshow as much as it was the Tory right and UKIP who exploited it. Of the 50-odd seats Labour lost to the Tories in 2019 all but 2 voted Leave. Add in People’s Vote shenanigans, constant briefing against Corbyn from within the party and its HQ, an antisemitism witch-hunt and smear campaign that was pretty much unevidenced but that the media and even supposedly more sensible outlets like the Guardian and BBC bought into. Oh and not forgetting silliness around his policy platform like “Broadband communism” etc.
Johnson and his government is just a continuation and inevitable result of that. I mean when a sitting government that’s also been in charge for 27 of the last 40 years can successfully pitch itself as anti-establishment and on the side of working people, that’s exploiting a complete void at the heart of establishment politics and media. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:19 - Dec 12 with 563 views | pointofblue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:16 - Dec 12 by footers |
Indeed. Those screaming about compromise and ideology seem to ignore the fact that Starmer is silencing the left because of his ideology, it's hardly a compromise. |
Though no different to how Corbyn attempted to silence the centre/right of the party? Or Johnson has basically shackled the centre/left of the Conservatives? In order to win elections you need to look united and in control, which means silencing critics from within. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:19 - Dec 12 with 558 views | footers |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:17 - Dec 12 by ZXBlue |
"Yeah but Starmer".
You really can't see beyond the squabble can you?
And you will therefore be complicit in election of another conservative government. That is the reality. |
What's the point in voting for a party that doesn't represent my views? Where was all this when people were saying they wouldn't vote for Labour under Corbyn? Nowhere.
I'm in his constituency so my vote won't matter one way or the other. And Starmer has made it very clear he doesn't want it in any case. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:19 - Dec 12 with 558 views | HARRY10 |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:05 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
The realistic alternative is to use my one vote for an alternative I do believe in. And to continue pushing for a more realistic conversation about the country’s needs from its government.
But I’d turn that around ... where’s the compromise to get the left onside rather than saying there’s no other alternative? And aren’t LibDem voters the real ones to work on anyway? They’re already occupying the so-called middle of the road and not even voting for an alternative. |
The downside of PR is that it renoves what limited control we do have.
You vote for the party, who AFTER the vote decide who your MP will be (or not). No accountability, or even vaguely local connection.
What invariably happens is that it is some form of coalition, so who does what is decided not by a huge number voting, but by some dodgy back room stitch up. As with the Cons/LibDems in 2010.
You will have seen this in Germany recently.
I am well aware of the limitations of FPTP, but be aware that introducing something with less democratic control is not the answer. | | | |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:22 - Dec 12 with 544 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:16 - Dec 12 by footers |
Indeed. Those screaming about compromise and ideology seem to ignore the fact that Starmer is silencing the left because of his ideology, it's hardly a compromise. |
Exactly. And him and his entourage have lied about it too.
Awful people. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:23 - Dec 12 with 534 views | Ryorry |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 12:44 - Dec 12 by bluelagos |
Unless they are on minimum wage, live in NI, Waless or Scotland, are gay and wanted a civil partnership, or benefited from economic policy on interest rates being taken away from the short termist interests of politicians. |
... or have/will have children at school, require NHS care, will need other people's kids to work in health, care, retail, transport to provide them with life essentials at some point in their own lives ... |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:25 - Dec 12 with 524 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:19 - Dec 12 by HARRY10 |
The downside of PR is that it renoves what limited control we do have.
You vote for the party, who AFTER the vote decide who your MP will be (or not). No accountability, or even vaguely local connection.
What invariably happens is that it is some form of coalition, so who does what is decided not by a huge number voting, but by some dodgy back room stitch up. As with the Cons/LibDems in 2010.
You will have seen this in Germany recently.
I am well aware of the limitations of FPTP, but be aware that introducing something with less democratic control is not the answer. |
Sorry Harry. But I think that’s irrelevant b@ll@cks.
And even if it wasn’t you can still have the Scottish option of voting for your local MSP as well as getting PR in parliament. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:29 - Dec 12 with 510 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:19 - Dec 12 by pointofblue |
Though no different to how Corbyn attempted to silence the centre/right of the party? Or Johnson has basically shackled the centre/left of the Conservatives? In order to win elections you need to look united and in control, which means silencing critics from within. |
How did Corbyn attempt to silence the centre/right of the party? By trying to make them more accountable to the membership? By including them in his cabinets even when they were trying to oust him?
There really is no comparison. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:32 - Dec 12 with 500 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:09 - Dec 12 by ZXBlue |
Ideology > realism.
If you can't understand that point, I am not sure what more can be said.
The alternative you seek has no realistic prospect of affecting the result. |
I think I do understand the point.
Nothing’s going to get better with your narrow view. | |
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