| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead 21:54 - Dec 11 with 14223 views | ElderGrizzly |
And Liz Truss odds on to be new PM.
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:33 - Dec 12 with 755 views | pointofblue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:29 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
How did Corbyn attempt to silence the centre/right of the party? By trying to make them more accountable to the membership? By including them in his cabinets even when they were trying to oust him?
There really is no comparison. |
Yes, fair point though thinking about it maybe that was the issue - Labour looked divided, people questioned whether Corbyn could run the country as he couldn’t control the party and he never got a grip with that side of things. Maybe in truth Labour needed another Gang of Four moment, even if it was to give Corbyn a semblance of control. |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:39 - Dec 12 with 734 views | footers |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:33 - Dec 12 by pointofblue |
Yes, fair point though thinking about it maybe that was the issue - Labour looked divided, people questioned whether Corbyn could run the country as he couldn’t control the party and he never got a grip with that side of things. Maybe in truth Labour needed another Gang of Four moment, even if it was to give Corbyn a semblance of control. |
Surely that was those principled people who created the electoral success that was Change UK?
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:43 - Dec 12 with 716 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:33 - Dec 12 by pointofblue |
Yes, fair point though thinking about it maybe that was the issue - Labour looked divided, people questioned whether Corbyn could run the country as he couldn’t control the party and he never got a grip with that side of things. Maybe in truth Labour needed another Gang of Four moment, even if it was to give Corbyn a semblance of control. |
It was a narrative pure and simple. Talks of purges and Stalinist control that a) just wasn’t what was happening and b) much more accurately reflects Labour under Starmer.
Unfortunately we’ve got the politics and political debate we deserve as a country. I.e. nothing that’s even remotely close to addressing the underlying issues that I listed earlier.
Hugely depressing that we can’t actually deal with these issues like grown-ups who should care about people around us, not least the reality of their present and their future. |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:45 - Dec 12 with 696 views | HARRY10 |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:25 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
Sorry Harry. But I think that’s irrelevant b@ll@cks.
And even if it wasn’t you can still have the Scottish option of voting for your local MSP as well as getting PR in parliament. |
So what happened in the UK, what has happened in Germany and what is happening in Scotland is irrelevant boll*cks
Good to see political discourse is not dead | | | |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:46 - Dec 12 with 694 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:39 - Dec 12 by footers |
Surely that was those principled people who created the electoral success that was Change UK?
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F@cking self-serving, grifting clowns.
Now we’ve got Starmer et al scaling up Change UK. 😂 | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:46 - Dec 12 with 692 views | Ryorry |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:32 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
I think I do understand the point.
Nothing’s going to get better with your narrow view. |
So ZXBlue, Positivity, PointOfBlue, Lagos, myself (and others on thread who want to GTTO but disagree with you) all have "narrow views", but you don't?! 🤣 |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:47 - Dec 12 with 690 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:45 - Dec 12 by HARRY10 |
So what happened in the UK, what has happened in Germany and what is happening in Scotland is irrelevant boll*cks
Good to see political discourse is not dead |
Irrelevant to the post you replied to, yes.
And b@ll@cks because it doesn’t work like that. Or certainly doesn’t have to. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:51 - Dec 12 with 676 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:46 - Dec 12 by Ryorry |
So ZXBlue, Positivity, PointOfBlue, Lagos, myself (and others on thread who want to GTTO but disagree with you) all have "narrow views", but you don't?! 🤣 |
Well, as I’ve actually lived in both the UK and in Sweden I know the reality of what I’m proposing. I don’t think you have any other ideas than plodding along making the same mistakes. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:00 - Dec 12 with 651 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:18 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
I don’t think that stacks up. The principal reason Johnson and his lot got in was because centrists haven’t been reading the room for decades.
Brexit was their sh1tshow as much as it was the Tory right and UKIP who exploited it. Of the 50-odd seats Labour lost to the Tories in 2019 all but 2 voted Leave. Add in People’s Vote shenanigans, constant briefing against Corbyn from within the party and its HQ, an antisemitism witch-hunt and smear campaign that was pretty much unevidenced but that the media and even supposedly more sensible outlets like the Guardian and BBC bought into. Oh and not forgetting silliness around his policy platform like “Broadband communism” etc.
Johnson and his government is just a continuation and inevitable result of that. I mean when a sitting government that’s also been in charge for 27 of the last 40 years can successfully pitch itself as anti-establishment and on the side of working people, that’s exploiting a complete void at the heart of establishment politics and media. |
Brexit was undoubtedly a factor and it should have been sorted out earlier - in hindsight voting for May’s deal would have been the best of a bad bunch of options. However, all the polling evidence suggests Corbyn was the biggest problem.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/23/their-own-words
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51457739.amp
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-el |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:01 - Dec 12 with 646 views | HARRY10 |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:47 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
Irrelevant to the post you replied to, yes.
And b@ll@cks because it doesn’t work like that. Or certainly doesn’t have to. |
Unfortunately it does work, that way, and will, Simply because votes in politics are binary. You either agree with the death penalty, or you don't.There is no way of having someone partially hung.
Some may recall some of the odd things the Tories were proposing in the 2017 election. Bringing back fix hunting etc. That was just stuff to trade away if they had to go into coalition with the Libdems.
And yes your MP is imposed AFTER you have voted. And yes, you have no say in the 'horse trading' that goes on after your vote - remember the Libdems driopping cancelling student loans ?
But the real concern is not so much you are trying to put in place a less democratic system. But it is telling voters all that needs to be done is to concentrate power into the hands of party leaders. Everything will then be OK.
Whereas the real problem is the lack of engagement, and understanding from the electorate. How many are watching social media that tells them that 5G is causing covid ? That vaccinations are the government injecting microchips into us.
We have possibly the most corrupt and incompetent government we ever have had. Yet is there really any disquiet or involvement from voters ?
There's your problem. | | | |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:02 - Dec 12 with 644 views | Ryorry |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:51 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
Well, as I’ve actually lived in both the UK and in Sweden I know the reality of what I’m proposing. I don’t think you have any other ideas than plodding along making the same mistakes. |
Not sure why you single only Sweden out, but I do know a bit about it having recently lived alongside a Swedish fella for 3 years.
Swedish reality is a pipe-dream where the UK's concerned - different history & demographics obviously, but different basic mind-set of electorate too, you can't just transplant that into UK brains within 2 years.
I & others on here have had plenty of ideas, all of which you've sneered at over the past few years. Unlike you, we're realists who know there's a better chance of turning the tory oily tanker round in stages than waiting 1,000 years for your ivory tower pipedreams to miraculously be accepted in one fell swoop. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 14:05]
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:09 - Dec 12 with 630 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:02 - Dec 12 by Ryorry |
Not sure why you single only Sweden out, but I do know a bit about it having recently lived alongside a Swedish fella for 3 years.
Swedish reality is a pipe-dream where the UK's concerned - different history & demographics obviously, but different basic mind-set of electorate too, you can't just transplant that into UK brains within 2 years.
I & others on here have had plenty of ideas, all of which you've sneered at over the past few years. Unlike you, we're realists who know there's a better chance of turning the tory oily tanker round in stages than waiting 1,000 years for your ivory tower pipedreams to miraculously be accepted in one fell swoop. [Post edited 12 Dec 2021 14:05]
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No, those ideas are in the UK ... Universal healthcare, education, welfare, worker’s rights, the need for a dynamic market economy, a belief in justice, liberty, equality and the greater good, looking after children and the elderly.
We’ve just got side-tracked by sht politics and politicians ironically pushing a flawed narrow neoliberal ideology where all the above have been taken for granted and suffered as a result. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:16 - Dec 12 with 623 views | Darth_Koont |
Sure. As I mentioned, the smears were important as well for those who clearly took the Corbyn stuff as read. But in 2019 it was Brexit that dominated.
What brought people back to Labour under Corbyn despite the PLP and an unsympathetic media’s portrayal? It’s swings and roundabouts in terms of those attracted or put off by Corbyn’s Leadership but the difference in 2017 was that Brexit wasn’t the defining theme. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:32 - Dec 12 with 583 views | Ryorry |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:09 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
No, those ideas are in the UK ... Universal healthcare, education, welfare, worker’s rights, the need for a dynamic market economy, a belief in justice, liberty, equality and the greater good, looking after children and the elderly.
We’ve just got side-tracked by sht politics and politicians ironically pushing a flawed narrow neoliberal ideology where all the above have been taken for granted and suffered as a result. |
Yet you prefer pursuing a path which will allow the re-election of a corrupt govt. which is hellbent on dismantling all of those things except a dynamic market economy.
(Leaving aside your shifting the goalposts in that post). | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:37 - Dec 12 with 569 views | footers |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:32 - Dec 12 by Ryorry |
Yet you prefer pursuing a path which will allow the re-election of a corrupt govt. which is hellbent on dismantling all of those things except a dynamic market economy.
(Leaving aside your shifting the goalposts in that post). |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you refuse to vote for Labour under Corbyn? | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:39 - Dec 12 with 568 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:32 - Dec 12 by Ryorry |
Yet you prefer pursuing a path which will allow the re-election of a corrupt govt. which is hellbent on dismantling all of those things except a dynamic market economy.
(Leaving aside your shifting the goalposts in that post). |
That’s unfair.
But I can see this is heading nowhere fast. So enjoy the rest of your day. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:46 - Dec 12 with 551 views | pointofblue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 13:43 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
It was a narrative pure and simple. Talks of purges and Stalinist control that a) just wasn’t what was happening and b) much more accurately reflects Labour under Starmer.
Unfortunately we’ve got the politics and political debate we deserve as a country. I.e. nothing that’s even remotely close to addressing the underlying issues that I listed earlier.
Hugely depressing that we can’t actually deal with these issues like grown-ups who should care about people around us, not least the reality of their present and their future. |
The question is how do we get there - the end goal is clear but what path needs to be taken, especially if the centre right have a strangehold on Labour?
Neither the Conservatives or Labour will allow PR to become the way to vote, even if it is the fairest method. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:54 - Dec 12 with 537 views | Ryorry |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:37 - Dec 12 by footers |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you refuse to vote for Labour under Corbyn? |
You are wrong - I voted for Labour *despite* Corbyn (& have voted no-one but Labour in every GE since I was 18, apart from a couple of tactical/protest votes decades ago).
I've said that several times before on this site. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 15:18 - Dec 12 with 497 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:46 - Dec 12 by pointofblue |
The question is how do we get there - the end goal is clear but what path needs to be taken, especially if the centre right have a strangehold on Labour?
Neither the Conservatives or Labour will allow PR to become the way to vote, even if it is the fairest method. |
I think it needs a path outside the traditional two-party setup. I agree nothing is going to change with those two as they are.
A bit like UKIP but a force for good. I’d see it largely as a genuine social democratic, green and PR movement for change. That like UKIP makes the parties come to it rather than trying to find legitimacy on their terms. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 15:22 - Dec 12 with 482 views | Ryorry |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 15:15 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
Oh please. Your objective take on Sweden is based on a single Swedish neighbour. And yet you trot this stuff out like you know what you’re talking about.
Ludicrous. And delusional. |
Oh yeah, sure, everything I know about Sweden is obviously based on one person and nothing whatsoever to do with my other 65+ years of education & life experience 
Shame you had to return & bad-taste what had otherwise been a fairly good-natured debate. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 15:23 - Dec 12 with 479 views | unbelievablue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 14:37 - Dec 12 by footers |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you refuse to vote for Labour under Corbyn? |
I was one of those who would not vote for Labour under Corbyn, and renounced my membership too. |  |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 15:24 - Dec 12 with 479 views | pointofblue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 15:18 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
I think it needs a path outside the traditional two-party setup. I agree nothing is going to change with those two as they are.
A bit like UKIP but a force for good. I’d see it largely as a genuine social democratic, green and PR movement for change. That like UKIP makes the parties come to it rather than trying to find legitimacy on their terms. |
So a figurehead is needed. Nigel Farage managed to channel public opinion and be a strong enough orator to sell ideas beyond those already on board. Maybe there was a feeling Corbyn would be that person but he was easy pray to the press and he struggled to get his thoughts across to those who need to be swayed. But I think a likeable figurehead would pick up a lot of the slack; the question is who. | |
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| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 15:29 - Dec 12 with 474 views | ZXBlue |
| Labour with 9 point opinion poll lead on 15:18 - Dec 12 by Darth_Koont |
I think it needs a path outside the traditional two-party setup. I agree nothing is going to change with those two as they are.
A bit like UKIP but a force for good. I’d see it largely as a genuine social democratic, green and PR movement for change. That like UKIP makes the parties come to it rather than trying to find legitimacy on their terms. |
But ther eisnt one, so you are reinforcing the status quo for the sake of dogmatism. | | | |
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