| Why do the honest, hard working, working class 10:21 - Jun 3 with 14332 views | FromReuserWithLove |
Still grovel and aspire to the self imposed elite? They really play their role in the archaic British class system and help promote the narrative of trickle down economics. The concept of royalty really is absurd.
Sorry for the random morning musings. |  | | |  |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 00:08 - Jun 4 with 1535 views | jeera |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 22:35 - Jun 3 by The_Flashing_Smile |
The fact that people have started threads praising her is, to me, fawning. Fine, if you want to disagree.
You can't answer the straw man accusation (because I was spot on - I never compared her to any PMs) so simply throw it back at me.
You can't answer the stability thing either. Why do you need Guthers to help you out? If she's done something to create stability it should be fairly easy to say so. You could've said it in that last sentence instead of passing the buck to others and swerving. |
I feel for me it's if you're prepared to call another human-being 'Majesty' or 'Highness'.
I can't begin to get my head around that at all.
By definition that is fawning and utterly, utterly insane to boot. |  |
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 01:13 - Jun 4 with 1511 views | StNeotsBlue |
Absolute nonsense. You seem to be blaming the "working class" for enjoying a weekend off and having a bit of a knees up. "They really play their role in the archaic....." .
Enjoy the weekend and raise a glass to a woman who has been a wonderful figurehead for 70 years. If that's not your thing do something else. |  | | |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 03:45 - Jun 4 with 1460 views | Ryorry |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 01:13 - Jun 4 by StNeotsBlue |
Absolute nonsense. You seem to be blaming the "working class" for enjoying a weekend off and having a bit of a knees up. "They really play their role in the archaic....." .
Enjoy the weekend and raise a glass to a woman who has been a wonderful figurehead for 70 years. If that's not your thing do something else. |
Up to let the mutt out for a pee.
Quite. The blaming & insulting going on in the thread is extraordinarily arrogant.
As for how people address the royals, as far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with 'the monarchy' - it's simply a question of respecting them as I would any other human being & therefore addressing them as they prefer to be addressed, same as I'd respect any stranger who prefers to be called 'Mrs' 'Ms' or 'Mr', esp. if they're senior in years.
Tho I have a feeling that anyone addressing the Queen as 'Mrs Windsor' would
get a polite but witty reply. |  |
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 07:09 - Jun 4 with 1427 views | solomon |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 01:13 - Jun 4 by StNeotsBlue |
Absolute nonsense. You seem to be blaming the "working class" for enjoying a weekend off and having a bit of a knees up. "They really play their role in the archaic....." .
Enjoy the weekend and raise a glass to a woman who has been a wonderful figurehead for 70 years. If that's not your thing do something else. |
Absolutely. If anyone feels as strongly as this (they are entitled to their opinion ) then they should get themselves down to the capital and protest rather than throw all their effort into protesting on what is essentially an obscure fan forum of a third tier football club in rural England. Doubt they will though, too hard innit. [Post edited 4 Jun 2022 8:08]
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 08:02 - Jun 4 with 1401 views | itfcjoe |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 22:05 - Jun 3 by FromReuserWithLove |
just, you seemed to grab the wrong end of the stick. I was merely asking why many hard working, honest people who graft to make ends meet (I include myself in this) feel compelled to celebrate the enormous inequality the royals bring.
The term 'working class' isn't one I invented.
I'm sorry it made you so insanely angry and will endeavour to word my posts more careful in future.
peace. |
They clearly aren’t there to ‘celebrate wealth inequality’ are they though, no more than Newcastle fans are there to celebrate the Saudi royal family, rather than the football team |  |
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 08:41 - Jun 4 with 1373 views | Churchman |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 00:08 - Jun 4 by jeera |
I feel for me it's if you're prepared to call another human-being 'Majesty' or 'Highness'.
I can't begin to get my head around that at all.
By definition that is fawning and utterly, utterly insane to boot. |
Yeah, but if she gives me that richly deserved knighthood or makes me a Baron for services to idleness, myself and the the pub industry, I’ll call her anything she likes and winch myself down on one knee. Anything to grab a title to annoy my friends and elevate my hypocrisy to a new level..
Back on planet earth, I have posted elsewhere I am not a supporter of the monarchy for many reasons. For me it’s time to move on from it or evolve it to something more relevant.
The point is that if you look at the history of British monarchy it’s an ever shifting story. In the good ole days monarchy was power and the king was all powerful - usually. Alfred usurped the throne from his brothers son Athelwold, kings came and went through conquest and politics, not necessarily through heredity.
The Conqueror’s claim was dubious, but so was Harold’s. John was technically reigned in by the Barons’ with Magna Carta (even if it did fail), Richard 3rd probably had his nephews bumped off, Henry 7th had very little claim, bar killing Richard - whose still yet to pay his car park fees. The Hanoverians claim was dubious.
Few claims to the throne bear much scrutiny and even if there was a competent king, if his son followed he often proved an idiot, sometimes mad. Charles 6th if France thought he was made of glass and George 3rd here wound up in a padded room.
By Victoria, the monarchy was deeply unpopular and the version we have today is Albert’s construct. By then, true power of monarchy was history anyway. Thanks to the death of Charles 1st the absolute divine right of kings was gone. Cromwell became king in all but name, even abolishing Parliament as Charles had done and that died with him and with the Restoration (welcomed by most), it was Parliament that ruled, not the king.
In a laborious way, I’m trying to say that monarchy has evolved. It’s a fascinating story and nothing is fixed in that story. Whether it can evolve quick enough now will determine its survival or not. Personally if it’s replaced with an elected head of state, so be it. On balance I’d welcome it.
I do not like the phrase ‘honest, hard, working class’. Everybody that works is working class for me. We have moved on from the Victorian ideal of removable inequalities, which was then a complete nonsense. People were mostly fixed in their social group. Even if you say became a mill owner and rich, you were still ‘new money’, working class. Only your children could ‘move up’. That’s no longer the case.
People are people, whatever they do for a living and wherever they live. There has been enormous change in my lifetime and it will continue. Education is the absolute key to everything and should be invested in far more than it is - vocational and academic. It’s a shame the current government don’t understand that - as shown by the series of incompetents that have been given the Ministerial post. In fact they fear it.
In the meantime, if people wish to enjoy the jubilee, so be it. It does no harm and given the majority support the monarchy, in a democracy, who am I to rain on their parade? Especially when queenie remembers she’s forgotten to bung my honours envelope in the post!
Random rant for the day complete! |  | | |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 08:47 - Jun 4 with 1366 views | GlasgowBlue |
Surely this question can be summed up as “once again the left not understanding or relating to the working class”. |  |
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 09:31 - Jun 4 with 1337 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 23:56 - Jun 3 by Ryorry |
This is why for the most part I try to avoid getting involved in any discussion with you these days.
You've whipped up the whole argument yourself via straw-manning. When someone is polite enough to answer your questions with straight answers you twist their reasons into somehow being straw manning because either you haven't bothered to read their answers carefully, or their views differ from yours. Then you insult them with judgemental codswallop to boot.
As I said the whole issue of the stability of constitutional monarchies compared with other systems is a massive topic on which opinions differ, only a fool would expect it to be something that could be covered in a 10 minute reply. Clearly it's a topic that would benefit from Guthrum's input, as he's the best known well informed historian on the forum.
I'm out.
*Edited for typo [Post edited 4 Jun 2022 0:04]
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LOL. So you've basically repeated everything from your previous post, but slightly longer and reworded.
Sorry that you got upset - that wasn't my intention but it's very hard to convey my view without it being upsetting. No-one wants to entertain the idea that they've been brainwashed.
I haven't straw-manned at all. You, in your defence, compared the Queen to Boris, as if I'd suggested in any way that the government is a better option. Which of course I in no way did. That's straw-manning. Twisting my point to something I didn't say which is easy to argue against.
The fact that you can't answer in any way what you mean by stability that the Queen's created proves my point really. You've been told it, you've trotted it out... but you don't have a clue what it means practically.
"This is why for the most part I try to avoid getting involved in any discussion with you these days." Because I'm right and you don't like it.
I wish I could put it in a less confrontational way, so I can only apologise for that. I'm not a monster, honest! |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Please don’t… on 09:38 - Jun 4 with 1344 views | unstableblue |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 08:47 - Jun 4 by GlasgowBlue |
Surely this question can be summed up as “once again the left not understanding or relating to the working class”. |
… start using ‘the left’ or ‘the right’ for that matter… it’s what the Daily Mail increasingly use as well as other dangerous voices who seek to divide and polarise us
And before you know it we’ve become American politics, which is very divisive and frankly dangerous
I’m left of centre, had respect for Tories such as heseltine, respect many other conservative MPs. Centrists.
I also don’t dislike the queen, have some respect for her service, and I’ve enjoyed a number of jubilee events already. But i wouldn’t put bunting up, or sing the national anthem. I would scrap the monarchy or at least massively defund and reform it in an instant. Why are we the taxpayer funding £45m a year to an already very wealthy family? Why did you and I pay for a man to go and hang out on lavish islands with a paedophile.
It’s 2022!!!
To your main point, of course large swathes of the British public, including working class are duped into a fervour about these events. Like they they were duped to vote Brexit (something now so damaging it is causing long term pain for Britain), to vote Boris…
We need to reconnect with what Britishness means, and find new ways to celebrate it.
The five British Values are:
Democracy.
The rule of law.
Individual liberty.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.
Because I can tell you this jubilee is not celebrating those, as the media that dupes… wraps non British values in our flag and our identity… and Charles sits on a throne in parliament and reads out new legislation that erodes the above. And we send immigrants who have experienced pain to Rwanda….. a scandal
I’d rather have Gareth Southgate on a massive carriage, with a huge crown, speaking decency and truths, and we all have a massive knees up around those 5 core values, than a bunch of Sloanes gazing down from a balcony… and a very large number of people and media outlets cementing a two world wars and one World Cup fervour and mind set… that is fundamental un-British.
Booing of Boris has been the highlight of the jubilee .., as it shows many still have standards
I thank you |  |
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 09:44 - Jun 4 with 1323 views | Trequartista |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 08:47 - Jun 4 by GlasgowBlue |
Surely this question can be summed up as “once again the left not understanding or relating to the working class”. |
"liberal left" please. There are plenty of us on the left who do understand. |  |
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 10:50 - Jun 4 with 1273 views | jeera |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 00:08 - Jun 4 by jeera |
I feel for me it's if you're prepared to call another human-being 'Majesty' or 'Highness'.
I can't begin to get my head around that at all.
By definition that is fawning and utterly, utterly insane to boot. |
What is it with posters who are on ignore needing to be noticed?
There's no point in downvoting my posts if I've no intention of engaging with them.
You'd think with hundreds of people to choose from they'd stick to those who are interested. [Post edited 4 Jun 2022 10:51]
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 11:03 - Jun 4 with 1255 views | Ryorry |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 09:31 - Jun 4 by The_Flashing_Smile |
LOL. So you've basically repeated everything from your previous post, but slightly longer and reworded.
Sorry that you got upset - that wasn't my intention but it's very hard to convey my view without it being upsetting. No-one wants to entertain the idea that they've been brainwashed.
I haven't straw-manned at all. You, in your defence, compared the Queen to Boris, as if I'd suggested in any way that the government is a better option. Which of course I in no way did. That's straw-manning. Twisting my point to something I didn't say which is easy to argue against.
The fact that you can't answer in any way what you mean by stability that the Queen's created proves my point really. You've been told it, you've trotted it out... but you don't have a clue what it means practically.
"This is why for the most part I try to avoid getting involved in any discussion with you these days." Because I'm right and you don't like it.
I wish I could put it in a less confrontational way, so I can only apologise for that. I'm not a monster, honest! |
Yep, I agree, you're right as you always are & must be because you have a perfect command of English, always read & uderstand everyones' posts perfectly, never put words into anyone's mouths, never distort, ignore or twist what they've said to suit yourself, never spiral an argument up out of nothing, never insult people because you lack justification for what you're saying, never straw-man.
And above all you never expect people to go without food or sleep until they've either written a 3-page essay or agreed with you. Thank heavens, I can now get away from your demands & complete wasting of my time. | |
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| Please don’t… on 12:36 - Jun 4 with 1177 views | noggin |
| Please don’t… on 09:38 - Jun 4 by unstableblue |
… start using ‘the left’ or ‘the right’ for that matter… it’s what the Daily Mail increasingly use as well as other dangerous voices who seek to divide and polarise us
And before you know it we’ve become American politics, which is very divisive and frankly dangerous
I’m left of centre, had respect for Tories such as heseltine, respect many other conservative MPs. Centrists.
I also don’t dislike the queen, have some respect for her service, and I’ve enjoyed a number of jubilee events already. But i wouldn’t put bunting up, or sing the national anthem. I would scrap the monarchy or at least massively defund and reform it in an instant. Why are we the taxpayer funding £45m a year to an already very wealthy family? Why did you and I pay for a man to go and hang out on lavish islands with a paedophile.
It’s 2022!!!
To your main point, of course large swathes of the British public, including working class are duped into a fervour about these events. Like they they were duped to vote Brexit (something now so damaging it is causing long term pain for Britain), to vote Boris…
We need to reconnect with what Britishness means, and find new ways to celebrate it.
The five British Values are:
Democracy.
The rule of law.
Individual liberty.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.
Because I can tell you this jubilee is not celebrating those, as the media that dupes… wraps non British values in our flag and our identity… and Charles sits on a throne in parliament and reads out new legislation that erodes the above. And we send immigrants who have experienced pain to Rwanda….. a scandal
I’d rather have Gareth Southgate on a massive carriage, with a huge crown, speaking decency and truths, and we all have a massive knees up around those 5 core values, than a bunch of Sloanes gazing down from a balcony… and a very large number of people and media outlets cementing a two world wars and one World Cup fervour and mind set… that is fundamental un-British.
Booing of Boris has been the highlight of the jubilee .., as it shows many still have standards
I thank you |
POTY so far. |  |
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| Please don’t… on 13:03 - Jun 4 with 1155 views | FromReuserWithLove |
| Please don’t… on 09:38 - Jun 4 by unstableblue |
… start using ‘the left’ or ‘the right’ for that matter… it’s what the Daily Mail increasingly use as well as other dangerous voices who seek to divide and polarise us
And before you know it we’ve become American politics, which is very divisive and frankly dangerous
I’m left of centre, had respect for Tories such as heseltine, respect many other conservative MPs. Centrists.
I also don’t dislike the queen, have some respect for her service, and I’ve enjoyed a number of jubilee events already. But i wouldn’t put bunting up, or sing the national anthem. I would scrap the monarchy or at least massively defund and reform it in an instant. Why are we the taxpayer funding £45m a year to an already very wealthy family? Why did you and I pay for a man to go and hang out on lavish islands with a paedophile.
It’s 2022!!!
To your main point, of course large swathes of the British public, including working class are duped into a fervour about these events. Like they they were duped to vote Brexit (something now so damaging it is causing long term pain for Britain), to vote Boris…
We need to reconnect with what Britishness means, and find new ways to celebrate it.
The five British Values are:
Democracy.
The rule of law.
Individual liberty.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.
Because I can tell you this jubilee is not celebrating those, as the media that dupes… wraps non British values in our flag and our identity… and Charles sits on a throne in parliament and reads out new legislation that erodes the above. And we send immigrants who have experienced pain to Rwanda….. a scandal
I’d rather have Gareth Southgate on a massive carriage, with a huge crown, speaking decency and truths, and we all have a massive knees up around those 5 core values, than a bunch of Sloanes gazing down from a balcony… and a very large number of people and media outlets cementing a two world wars and one World Cup fervour and mind set… that is fundamental un-British.
Booing of Boris has been the highlight of the jubilee .., as it shows many still have standards
I thank you |
FWIW i agree with everything you’ve said, you just articulated it much, much better. I wasn’t intending to attack or belittle anyone. Thanks | | | |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 13:11 - Jun 4 with 1148 views | Ryorry |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 10:50 - Jun 4 by jeera |
What is it with posters who are on ignore needing to be noticed?
There's no point in downvoting my posts if I've no intention of engaging with them.
You'd think with hundreds of people to choose from they'd stick to those who are interested. [Post edited 4 Jun 2022 10:51]
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I suggest you ask Gav to impose a mutual ignore then, I've no problem with that -I'd certainly prefer you not to notice me, had enough of your oblique insults from the sidelines.
Until then it's a public forum. | |
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| Please don’t… on 13:34 - Jun 4 with 1127 views | longtimefan |
| Please don’t… on 09:38 - Jun 4 by unstableblue |
… start using ‘the left’ or ‘the right’ for that matter… it’s what the Daily Mail increasingly use as well as other dangerous voices who seek to divide and polarise us
And before you know it we’ve become American politics, which is very divisive and frankly dangerous
I’m left of centre, had respect for Tories such as heseltine, respect many other conservative MPs. Centrists.
I also don’t dislike the queen, have some respect for her service, and I’ve enjoyed a number of jubilee events already. But i wouldn’t put bunting up, or sing the national anthem. I would scrap the monarchy or at least massively defund and reform it in an instant. Why are we the taxpayer funding £45m a year to an already very wealthy family? Why did you and I pay for a man to go and hang out on lavish islands with a paedophile.
It’s 2022!!!
To your main point, of course large swathes of the British public, including working class are duped into a fervour about these events. Like they they were duped to vote Brexit (something now so damaging it is causing long term pain for Britain), to vote Boris…
We need to reconnect with what Britishness means, and find new ways to celebrate it.
The five British Values are:
Democracy.
The rule of law.
Individual liberty.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.
Because I can tell you this jubilee is not celebrating those, as the media that dupes… wraps non British values in our flag and our identity… and Charles sits on a throne in parliament and reads out new legislation that erodes the above. And we send immigrants who have experienced pain to Rwanda….. a scandal
I’d rather have Gareth Southgate on a massive carriage, with a huge crown, speaking decency and truths, and we all have a massive knees up around those 5 core values, than a bunch of Sloanes gazing down from a balcony… and a very large number of people and media outlets cementing a two world wars and one World Cup fervour and mind set… that is fundamental un-British.
Booing of Boris has been the highlight of the jubilee .., as it shows many still have standards
I thank you |
Can’t wait for the buffoon to be gone but I find it a bit perverse that after identifying what you think are the five top British values, you then say your highlight of the weekend is an act that goes against one of them and that it demonstrates “standards”. |  | | |
| Please don’t… on 13:49 - Jun 4 with 1127 views | unstableblue |
| Please don’t… on 13:34 - Jun 4 by longtimefan |
Can’t wait for the buffoon to be gone but I find it a bit perverse that after identifying what you think are the five top British values, you then say your highlight of the weekend is an act that goes against one of them and that it demonstrates “standards”. |
Don’t agree I’m afraid.
Have a listen to Radio 4 any questions which is on now; it’s from the Isle of Wight, which has a significant Conservative majority. It will be available on BBC Sounds.
Andrew Griffith a Boris policy advisor. He has been utterly called to account by a vocal and at times booing crowd, on this governments failings - the lies, that lack of windfall, the contracts scandal. They are not showing mutual respect, because one British value is frankly a sense of fair play (we queue beautifully and with repsect for gods sake - having lived in Asia’s, that is not the case, and I found shocking!), and this government is beyond playing fair, they lie, and they lie again.
They are booing on the radio, as those who did in the street as Boris arrived to the service (no one else was booed), because this cabinet have crossed the rubicon, they have failed on so many of the values below. And as I stated before they are wrapping their actions in a faux British nationalism, that belittles us as a country, which holds us back, little Englander, narrow mindedness -
to please some Tory backbenchers who are still living in the 1950s.
The five British Values are:
Democracy.
The rule of law.
Individual liberty.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.
And my final comment, if you want to pick up on mutual respect. The Daily Mail, the Boris Pravda, doesn’t celebrate the queens reign today, like all other publication- they splash their front cover with bile about a schism between Harry and William. Now that is also something everyone should boo… and booing whilst upholding British values. [Post edited 4 Jun 2022 13:50]
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 13:49 - Jun 4 with 1125 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
I'll give you my thoughts in response to the question, before saying where I stand now.
I think there are a number of historical factors at play. In no particular order:
1. England tried it once. It was horrible.
2. Even when the royals were as feckless as the German George's within a hundred years of the restoration there was no appetite for another Civil War, or the return to Puritanism.
3. Jingoistic "rules the waves", "sun never sets on the British Empire" nostalgia still stirs the loins of some.
4. Moving into the 20th Century:
The Queen's parents were central to national identity during World War 2. Legendary walkabouts during the Blitz, Bertie's broadcasts on the Radio. The Queen served as an Auxillary.
5. Millions served in the military in two world wars and through National Service. Two, nearly three, generations of men taught to obey, with the crown being the ultimate focus of their loyalty.
6. Huge swathes of the country still have forms of feudalism, with tenant farms leased from landowners, and estate workers living in tied housing. There are plenty of the rituals and customs of the countryside that tie into everyone "knowing their place" which would seem completely foreign to city dwellers.
7. Coins and stamps have reinforced the monarchy day in, day out. It would be interesting to see the percentage figures for support amongst those who don't use cash and have never posted a letter.
8. God Save the Queen is belted out before every England match
9. She has been Queen for 70 years and it has always seemed in bad taste to speak out against the decent old lady.
10. The resulting stability has been seen as a good thing.
11. The 70 years have seen a steady improvement in living standards for the majority of honest, hard working, working class people, so why change things? Now that is being eroded the question is more likely to be asked.
12. When did you last see a sensible discussion of arguments for Republicanism on mainstream TV?
13. The whole theatre of pageantry is a reinforcement of the role and institution.
14. Everyone knows somebody who has been sent a telegram, or given an honour, or invited to a Buckingham Palace garden party, don't they? There are lots of people who have their own "Royal story" which comments them to the Royal Family and makes them feel invested, and in some way invested in the system.
15. Something about tourism and value for money which we are all expected to repeat without question, as if that is the purpose of a Head of State in a mature democracy. It's like saying the RAF should have kept the Harrier because it was popular at Air Shows.
16. The current system works for the powers that be. They make sure that radical alternatives don't gain traction, and those with criticisms are pounced upon, even if they are the Queen's grandson and his wife.
There are going to be more, but that is a list of inter-woven reasons why working class culture can express affection for a hierarchy, in spite of their place in it.
My personal views:
I've moved from being a "mildly against in principle, but she does the job well" type, to believing that the UK requires a proper written Constitution and Proportional Representation in order to protect the "checks and balances" on Executive Power. The Queen was always seen as the last check, but she has failed abysmally in that task in recent years, and allowed the Judiciary and Parliament to be marginalised through her inaction.
She should enforce the Ministerial Code, call the PM to Buckingham Palace and point out chapter and verse how he has breached the Code and tell him that as he isn't decent enough to resign, as every single one of his predecessors would have, she is informing him that he no longer has her confidence and his services are no longer required by her as her Prime Minister.
For those who say that she "can't" do that, she can. The Prime Minister serves at the invitation of the Queen.
The fact that she chooses not to, or her advisors (unelected bureaucrats) counsel her not to and she acquiesced, is the problem. We need a Head of State who protects the "unwritten Constitution", and she has proven herself, and the whole Buckingham Palace system, to not be up to the job. | | | |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 14:34 - Jun 4 with 1090 views | chicoazul |
Good to see everyone in here continues to prove all societal political and economic issues in this country are entirely class-based. Guess what? You’re all middle class. |  |
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 15:19 - Jun 4 with 1043 views | Butterbing |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 08:47 - Jun 4 by GlasgowBlue |
Surely this question can be summed up as “once again the left not understanding or relating to the working class”. |
Pointlessly polarising debating style by you. Just no need to make it left v right. Grow up. |  | | |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 15:25 - Jun 4 with 1035 views | Churchman |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 13:49 - Jun 4 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I'll give you my thoughts in response to the question, before saying where I stand now.
I think there are a number of historical factors at play. In no particular order:
1. England tried it once. It was horrible.
2. Even when the royals were as feckless as the German George's within a hundred years of the restoration there was no appetite for another Civil War, or the return to Puritanism.
3. Jingoistic "rules the waves", "sun never sets on the British Empire" nostalgia still stirs the loins of some.
4. Moving into the 20th Century:
The Queen's parents were central to national identity during World War 2. Legendary walkabouts during the Blitz, Bertie's broadcasts on the Radio. The Queen served as an Auxillary.
5. Millions served in the military in two world wars and through National Service. Two, nearly three, generations of men taught to obey, with the crown being the ultimate focus of their loyalty.
6. Huge swathes of the country still have forms of feudalism, with tenant farms leased from landowners, and estate workers living in tied housing. There are plenty of the rituals and customs of the countryside that tie into everyone "knowing their place" which would seem completely foreign to city dwellers.
7. Coins and stamps have reinforced the monarchy day in, day out. It would be interesting to see the percentage figures for support amongst those who don't use cash and have never posted a letter.
8. God Save the Queen is belted out before every England match
9. She has been Queen for 70 years and it has always seemed in bad taste to speak out against the decent old lady.
10. The resulting stability has been seen as a good thing.
11. The 70 years have seen a steady improvement in living standards for the majority of honest, hard working, working class people, so why change things? Now that is being eroded the question is more likely to be asked.
12. When did you last see a sensible discussion of arguments for Republicanism on mainstream TV?
13. The whole theatre of pageantry is a reinforcement of the role and institution.
14. Everyone knows somebody who has been sent a telegram, or given an honour, or invited to a Buckingham Palace garden party, don't they? There are lots of people who have their own "Royal story" which comments them to the Royal Family and makes them feel invested, and in some way invested in the system.
15. Something about tourism and value for money which we are all expected to repeat without question, as if that is the purpose of a Head of State in a mature democracy. It's like saying the RAF should have kept the Harrier because it was popular at Air Shows.
16. The current system works for the powers that be. They make sure that radical alternatives don't gain traction, and those with criticisms are pounced upon, even if they are the Queen's grandson and his wife.
There are going to be more, but that is a list of inter-woven reasons why working class culture can express affection for a hierarchy, in spite of their place in it.
My personal views:
I've moved from being a "mildly against in principle, but she does the job well" type, to believing that the UK requires a proper written Constitution and Proportional Representation in order to protect the "checks and balances" on Executive Power. The Queen was always seen as the last check, but she has failed abysmally in that task in recent years, and allowed the Judiciary and Parliament to be marginalised through her inaction.
She should enforce the Ministerial Code, call the PM to Buckingham Palace and point out chapter and verse how he has breached the Code and tell him that as he isn't decent enough to resign, as every single one of his predecessors would have, she is informing him that he no longer has her confidence and his services are no longer required by her as her Prime Minister.
For those who say that she "can't" do that, she can. The Prime Minister serves at the invitation of the Queen.
The fact that she chooses not to, or her advisors (unelected bureaucrats) counsel her not to and she acquiesced, is the problem. We need a Head of State who protects the "unwritten Constitution", and she has proven herself, and the whole Buckingham Palace system, to not be up to the job. |
I agree with all of this with the exception of the queen doing any more than what she does as constitutional ‘last check’. The moment the monarch interferes is the end of the monarchy. She is a figurehead and is unelected and so is the HoL.
That is my fundamental objection to both these institutions.
For the record, we should have kept the Harrier because it was effective and we had no replacement - and the idiotic government sold all rights to it to the US (AV8) for bobbins. Idiots. | | | |
| Please don’t… on 15:26 - Jun 4 with 1033 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Please don’t… on 09:38 - Jun 4 by unstableblue |
… start using ‘the left’ or ‘the right’ for that matter… it’s what the Daily Mail increasingly use as well as other dangerous voices who seek to divide and polarise us
And before you know it we’ve become American politics, which is very divisive and frankly dangerous
I’m left of centre, had respect for Tories such as heseltine, respect many other conservative MPs. Centrists.
I also don’t dislike the queen, have some respect for her service, and I’ve enjoyed a number of jubilee events already. But i wouldn’t put bunting up, or sing the national anthem. I would scrap the monarchy or at least massively defund and reform it in an instant. Why are we the taxpayer funding £45m a year to an already very wealthy family? Why did you and I pay for a man to go and hang out on lavish islands with a paedophile.
It’s 2022!!!
To your main point, of course large swathes of the British public, including working class are duped into a fervour about these events. Like they they were duped to vote Brexit (something now so damaging it is causing long term pain for Britain), to vote Boris…
We need to reconnect with what Britishness means, and find new ways to celebrate it.
The five British Values are:
Democracy.
The rule of law.
Individual liberty.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.
Because I can tell you this jubilee is not celebrating those, as the media that dupes… wraps non British values in our flag and our identity… and Charles sits on a throne in parliament and reads out new legislation that erodes the above. And we send immigrants who have experienced pain to Rwanda….. a scandal
I’d rather have Gareth Southgate on a massive carriage, with a huge crown, speaking decency and truths, and we all have a massive knees up around those 5 core values, than a bunch of Sloanes gazing down from a balcony… and a very large number of people and media outlets cementing a two world wars and one World Cup fervour and mind set… that is fundamental un-British.
Booing of Boris has been the highlight of the jubilee .., as it shows many still have standards
I thank you |
I’m comfortable using the terminology “left”.
If the left understood what made the working class tick then we wouldn’t have had twelve continuous years of Tory government.
There is a strong strand of patriotism and pro monarchy feeling running through the working class.
That disappoints the left. Hence you have people like Emily Thornberry sneering at council houses flying the cross of St George. | |
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| Please don’t… on 15:45 - Jun 4 with 1014 views | lowhouseblue |
| Please don’t… on 15:26 - Jun 4 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m comfortable using the terminology “left”.
If the left understood what made the working class tick then we wouldn’t have had twelve continuous years of Tory government.
There is a strong strand of patriotism and pro monarchy feeling running through the working class.
That disappoints the left. Hence you have people like Emily Thornberry sneering at council houses flying the cross of St George. |
having empathy with the people you want to vote for you used to be pretty basic politics. it's part of understanding why people think the way they do. it avoids writing people off a brain washed, stupid, tricked or selfish. those on the extremes of politics caricature, dismiss and belittle their opponents and therefore have no credible model of why people don't vote for them - it's the fault of the press, it's cos people are thick, it's cos they're racist (and after saying all that they're still surprised people don't vote for them). |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 15:58 - Jun 4 with 993 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Why do the honest, hard working, working class on 15:19 - Jun 4 by Butterbing |
Pointlessly polarising debating style by you. Just no need to make it left v right. Grow up. |
The op used the phrases "the self imposed elite", "archaic British class system" and "trickle down economics". But I'm the one pointlessly polarising the debate?
Erm okay. | |
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| Please don’t… on 16:06 - Jun 4 with 976 views | Mullet |
| Please don’t… on 15:26 - Jun 4 by GlasgowBlue |
I’m comfortable using the terminology “left”.
If the left understood what made the working class tick then we wouldn’t have had twelve continuous years of Tory government.
There is a strong strand of patriotism and pro monarchy feeling running through the working class.
That disappoints the left. Hence you have people like Emily Thornberry sneering at council houses flying the cross of St George. |
I think it's more measurable as generational in that respect. Plenty of my generation are fairly ambivalent for example.
There's also the impact of the far-right on the generations immediately below mine and an argument that they've warped "working class" views towards the right wing, but I don't think it holds water to ascribe it to one thing or the other.
The media coverage of the Tories and the Royal Family has been far more damaging to this country, but which class/generation has it cut through with? In the same way flags come out for the World Cup, once the excuse for a piss up disappears so does anything resembling support for most people. |  |
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