| Commonwealth calls for reparations. 16:44 - Oct 26 with 15763 views | OldFart71 |
Give in to this we may as well pack our bags and move out of Britain. We cannot be held accountable for everything that happened in the past otherwise we leave ourselves open to everyone claiming something for what happened to their forbears many years past. As was pointed out on the radio last night Britain were at the forefront of abolishing slavery and whilst it was abhorrent Britain wasn't solely responsible for it happening. |  | | |  |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:46 - Oct 26 with 11218 views | BlueBadger |
And to be fair, we've only just finished paying reparations.
To the slavers. |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:46 - Oct 26 with 11218 views | BlueToad |
The football is on |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:47 - Oct 26 with 11202 views | Zx1988 |
Can't agree with you there.
There are countless institutions (public and private) that owe their current position to the indentured labour of slaves; the Royal Family included.
It is only right for the ancestors of those who were forced to contribute to such successes to receive their share of the profits. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:50 - Oct 27 with 11069 views | Crawfordsboot |
British, French and Dutch slave traders all shipped slaves across the Atlantic. Arab and African slave traders were invariably involved in capturing slaves and transporting them to the coast to be sold to the British, French and Dutch. They were the sold to plantation owners.
Are claims being made against all those involved, or just against Brits? I’m not aware of wider claims but then that might just be that they have not been publicised in the UK.
On the question of compensation paid to traders on the banning of the slave trade and comparing that to the lack of compensation for the descendants of slaves I think that is a spurious argument.
Payments made to slavers were made so as to enable the banning of the slave trade. Without those payments abolition would have taken much longer.
Personally I can’t see how you can put a price on this past injustice. What Britain could do is reaffirm that historic slavery was abhorrent, apologise for our involvement and make concessions to affected peoples by allowing them access to UK institutions (such as access to UK Universities) on the same terms and fees as Brits. |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:25 - Oct 27 with 11003 views | Plums |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:50 - Oct 27 by Crawfordsboot |
British, French and Dutch slave traders all shipped slaves across the Atlantic. Arab and African slave traders were invariably involved in capturing slaves and transporting them to the coast to be sold to the British, French and Dutch. They were the sold to plantation owners.
Are claims being made against all those involved, or just against Brits? I’m not aware of wider claims but then that might just be that they have not been publicised in the UK.
On the question of compensation paid to traders on the banning of the slave trade and comparing that to the lack of compensation for the descendants of slaves I think that is a spurious argument.
Payments made to slavers were made so as to enable the banning of the slave trade. Without those payments abolition would have taken much longer.
Personally I can’t see how you can put a price on this past injustice. What Britain could do is reaffirm that historic slavery was abhorrent, apologise for our involvement and make concessions to affected peoples by allowing them access to UK institutions (such as access to UK Universities) on the same terms and fees as Brits. |
I'm not aware of the French or Dutch 'Commonwealths'? The clue's in the name. When it's benefitted the UK state to be linked to these countries for the purposes of influence and soft power, we're very keen but when it's time for some awkward questions to be answered, it's 'no thanks'. |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:46 - Oct 27 with 10988 views | Churchman |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 11:50 - Oct 27 by Crawfordsboot |
British, French and Dutch slave traders all shipped slaves across the Atlantic. Arab and African slave traders were invariably involved in capturing slaves and transporting them to the coast to be sold to the British, French and Dutch. They were the sold to plantation owners.
Are claims being made against all those involved, or just against Brits? I’m not aware of wider claims but then that might just be that they have not been publicised in the UK.
On the question of compensation paid to traders on the banning of the slave trade and comparing that to the lack of compensation for the descendants of slaves I think that is a spurious argument.
Payments made to slavers were made so as to enable the banning of the slave trade. Without those payments abolition would have taken much longer.
Personally I can’t see how you can put a price on this past injustice. What Britain could do is reaffirm that historic slavery was abhorrent, apologise for our involvement and make concessions to affected peoples by allowing them access to UK institutions (such as access to UK Universities) on the same terms and fees as Brits. |
Spot on post.
Claims? Just against the Brits. It’s as if slavery was invented by this country and abolished by others.
This abomination has been going on since man first stood upright and continues to this day. Exploitation.
If the U.K. is to pay reparations I presume descendants of the Vikings (Scandinavia) and Italy (Romans) will be compensating us. Italy: Carthage, Carthage: Spain and southern Europe, Germany the rest of Europe for WW2 slavery. North Africa compensate Europe for the Barbary pirates etc, France for their efforts including reintroducing it in 1800 when he had a labour shortage and for the Gauls, Spain and Portugal for S America, Japan the US and U.K. for WW2, US for Africa and for not abolishing it until the 1860s. Then there’s Egypt, Syria, Persia in ancient times, the Greeks, Saladin and so we go on. That’s for starters.
We all have ancestry and it seems odd to just draw a line around UKs involvement in the barbaric (to 21c eyes) triangular trade.
Your last paragraph is in my view the way forward. |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:51 - Oct 27 with 10969 views | Plums |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:46 - Oct 27 by Churchman |
Spot on post.
Claims? Just against the Brits. It’s as if slavery was invented by this country and abolished by others.
This abomination has been going on since man first stood upright and continues to this day. Exploitation.
If the U.K. is to pay reparations I presume descendants of the Vikings (Scandinavia) and Italy (Romans) will be compensating us. Italy: Carthage, Carthage: Spain and southern Europe, Germany the rest of Europe for WW2 slavery. North Africa compensate Europe for the Barbary pirates etc, France for their efforts including reintroducing it in 1800 when he had a labour shortage and for the Gauls, Spain and Portugal for S America, Japan the US and U.K. for WW2, US for Africa and for not abolishing it until the 1860s. Then there’s Egypt, Syria, Persia in ancient times, the Greeks, Saladin and so we go on. That’s for starters.
We all have ancestry and it seems odd to just draw a line around UKs involvement in the barbaric (to 21c eyes) triangular trade.
Your last paragraph is in my view the way forward. |
I personally don't disagree with any of that but have no issue with other nations asking the question. It's the shutting down (or refusal to engage) in any kind of discussion that's damaging - and that applies to a hell of a lot of things in our increasingly binary world. | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 13:00 - Oct 27 with 10936 views | lowhouseblue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:46 - Oct 26 by BlueBadger |
And to be fair, we've only just finished paying reparations.
To the slavers. |
i know that this is one of those cool arguments that people repeat without any thought, but why do you think slave owners were compensated? it was done in order to abolish slavery. it was done in order to enable abolition - in exactly the same way as the 1945 labour government compensated mine owners in order to take the mines into public ownership. the mine owners were often very rich, landed, b*rstards, but we compensated them in order to achieve a greater good. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 13:48 - Oct 27 with 10856 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
A great question, and I can certainly see a case for it.
It feels like a Pandora’s box which would trigger all sorts of claims due to historical injustices. Perhaps the families of British soldiers worked to death at the hands of the Japanese should bring claims. And as others say - how far do you feasibly go back, the Barbary slave trade, Viking raids, Roman slavery of Britons? Even in WW2 Germany paid little in the way of reparations - after the punishing treaty of Versailles (WW1) it was realised that such reparations just bred further resentment and forgiveness and education was the way to build better relationships.
Edit - and these are my views as a Republican that realises much of the Royal’s wealth comes from historical plunder. I mean they even ‘own’ the seabed ffs… [Post edited 27 Oct 2024 13:53]
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:04 - Oct 27 with 10810 views | Leaky |
To be fair if any slaves exist that we are responsible for they should be paid, by the companies that that enslaved them. |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:07 - Oct 27 with 10784 views | Keno |
I think we should demand reparations from Rome, after all what did the Romans every do for us |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:14 - Oct 27 with 10769 views | positivity |
i think the dutch are the only ones to make a formal apology and pledged 200m euros.
even that's chicken feed compared to the payment made to compensate the slavers (16.5bn in modern terms) | |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 14:17 - Oct 27 with 10760 views | J2BLUE |
For me it should be an apology and that's it.
Realistically, the number would have to be astronomical to even scratch the surface. We could give them all the wealth in the country and it's not going to make up for the horrors inflicted.
I think we should do what Starmer said. Share knowledge, help with climate change, etc. [Post edited 27 Oct 2024 19:06]
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 15:45 - Oct 27 with 10680 views | WeWereZombies |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:25 - Oct 27 by Plums |
I'm not aware of the French or Dutch 'Commonwealths'? The clue's in the name. When it's benefitted the UK state to be linked to these countries for the purposes of influence and soft power, we're very keen but when it's time for some awkward questions to be answered, it's 'no thanks'. |
'La Francophonie, which was founded to promote the French language and French culture, as well as pooled scientific research, is often considered France's equivalent of the Commonwealth of Nations... However, its structure and institutions, whilst superficially being similar to the Commonwealth, are more similar to the United Nations, in relying upon majority voting, rather than consensus, as the Commonwealth does...
La Francophonie also adopts a very different philosophy to the Commonwealth, particularly due to its lacking institutional ties to NGOs its equivalent of the Commonwealth Foundation or Commonwealth Family... Nonetheless, La Francophonie spends ten times as much money per inhabitant as the Commonwealth (€0.30 cf. €0.03), reflecting France's dedication to promoting Francophonie relations...
Twelve countries are full members of both La Francophonie and the Commonwealth (Cameroon, Canada, Cyprus, Dominica, Gabon, Ghana, Mauritius, Rwanda, Saint Lucia, Seychelles, Togo and Vanuatu) and Mozambique is an observer... In the wake of the genocide there, Francophonie member Rwanda has made recent moves away from France's sphere of influence, has replaced French with English as an official language, and joined the Commonwealth at the 2009 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting...
Before La Francophonie, since the foundation and expansion of the Commonwealth, France has created a number of political and cultural unions that have attempted to simulate its model amongst France's former colonial possessions and French-speaking countries. The French Union was created in 1946 and was succeeded by the short-lived French Community in 1958, which folded when its members gained independence.'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_and_the_Commonwealth_of_Nations#:~:text=La%
The Netherlands situation is much more convoluted but there has been talk of a Netherlands~Indonesia Union.
Also worth pointing out that the Commonwealth of Nations is no longer the British Commonwealth and out monarch is not the titular head of it. |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:09 - Oct 27 with 10618 views | brazil1982 |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 13:48 - Oct 27 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
A great question, and I can certainly see a case for it.
It feels like a Pandora’s box which would trigger all sorts of claims due to historical injustices. Perhaps the families of British soldiers worked to death at the hands of the Japanese should bring claims. And as others say - how far do you feasibly go back, the Barbary slave trade, Viking raids, Roman slavery of Britons? Even in WW2 Germany paid little in the way of reparations - after the punishing treaty of Versailles (WW1) it was realised that such reparations just bred further resentment and forgiveness and education was the way to build better relationships.
Edit - and these are my views as a Republican that realises much of the Royal’s wealth comes from historical plunder. I mean they even ‘own’ the seabed ffs… [Post edited 27 Oct 2024 13:53]
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The crown estate owns sea bed/coast line around the UK, not the Royals personally. |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:44 - Oct 27 with 10533 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:47 - Oct 26 by Zx1988 |
Can't agree with you there.
There are countless institutions (public and private) that owe their current position to the indentured labour of slaves; the Royal Family included.
It is only right for the ancestors of those who were forced to contribute to such successes to receive their share of the profits. |
Indentured labour and slavery are two very different things. This distinction has been deliberately confused to dilute actual slavery.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_slaves_myth |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:15 - Oct 27 with 10441 views | bluejacko |
It’s quite easy really, we can repatriate any descendants of slaves ( Lammy included) who do not like living in the country their forebears arrived in over 200 years ago free of charge if they think they will be better off back in Africa!
Are the Portuguese or Spanish being asked for money after all it was a Portuguese who bought the first slaves off Africans willing to sell them.
This is a con job and if Starmer falls for it all hell will break loose! | | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:22 - Oct 27 with 10407 views | noggin |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:15 - Oct 27 by bluejacko |
It’s quite easy really, we can repatriate any descendants of slaves ( Lammy included) who do not like living in the country their forebears arrived in over 200 years ago free of charge if they think they will be better off back in Africa!
Are the Portuguese or Spanish being asked for money after all it was a Portuguese who bought the first slaves off Africans willing to sell them.
This is a con job and if Starmer falls for it all hell will break loose! |
"It’s quite easy really, we can repatriate any descendants of slaves ( Lammy included) who do not like living in the country their forebears arrived in over 200 years ago free of charge if they think they will be better off back in Africa!"
Spoken like a true slave owner. |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:32 - Oct 27 with 10351 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 12:46 - Oct 27 by Churchman |
Spot on post.
Claims? Just against the Brits. It’s as if slavery was invented by this country and abolished by others.
This abomination has been going on since man first stood upright and continues to this day. Exploitation.
If the U.K. is to pay reparations I presume descendants of the Vikings (Scandinavia) and Italy (Romans) will be compensating us. Italy: Carthage, Carthage: Spain and southern Europe, Germany the rest of Europe for WW2 slavery. North Africa compensate Europe for the Barbary pirates etc, France for their efforts including reintroducing it in 1800 when he had a labour shortage and for the Gauls, Spain and Portugal for S America, Japan the US and U.K. for WW2, US for Africa and for not abolishing it until the 1860s. Then there’s Egypt, Syria, Persia in ancient times, the Greeks, Saladin and so we go on. That’s for starters.
We all have ancestry and it seems odd to just draw a line around UKs involvement in the barbaric (to 21c eyes) triangular trade.
Your last paragraph is in my view the way forward. |
Re that last point about access to the UK, it’s something the right wingers fiercely oppose as those people would need to be included in the immigration stats. We’ve done it for the Honk Kongkongese though, so there is a precedent.
I’ve no problem with reparations from massively significant events (e.g. slavery, contribution to climate change and things widespread health damage from nuclear testing/state mining & pollution). Much of it would be better handled multi-laterally and could be coordinated through orgs such as the UN (as already happens with the climate change fund even if it’s too small). |  |
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:50 - Oct 27 with 10297 views | ITFCSG |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:32 - Oct 27 by Swansea_Blue |
Re that last point about access to the UK, it’s something the right wingers fiercely oppose as those people would need to be included in the immigration stats. We’ve done it for the Honk Kongkongese though, so there is a precedent.
I’ve no problem with reparations from massively significant events (e.g. slavery, contribution to climate change and things widespread health damage from nuclear testing/state mining & pollution). Much of it would be better handled multi-laterally and could be coordinated through orgs such as the UN (as already happens with the climate change fund even if it’s too small). |
In 1982 Thatcher basically decided the fate of Hong Kong without any consultation from the local population or even the colonial Hong Kong administration resulting in the UK subsequently handing over 7 million + Hongkongese (who in many ways are closer to us in terms of culture and ethics than mainland China) to Communist China based on a "promise" of "One Country, Two Systems" which the Chinese Communists obviously failed to honour. Compare that to how we handled the issue of the Falklands and Portugal granting full Portuguese citizenship to any Macau resident born prior to the handover of Macau in 1999.
The extended BN(O) lifeboat scheme was only granted to Hongkongese after tens of thousands were persecuted during the 2019 protests coupled with the subsequent clampdown of civil liberties in Hong Kong. Prior to that multiple UK governments basically refused to grant BN(O) holders any rights besides having an extra passport for use. I see it as an exception and not a precedent. | | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 19:05 - Oct 27 with 10243 views | NedPlimpton |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:15 - Oct 27 by bluejacko |
It’s quite easy really, we can repatriate any descendants of slaves ( Lammy included) who do not like living in the country their forebears arrived in over 200 years ago free of charge if they think they will be better off back in Africa!
Are the Portuguese or Spanish being asked for money after all it was a Portuguese who bought the first slaves off Africans willing to sell them.
This is a con job and if Starmer falls for it all hell will break loose! |
Yes, Spain and Portugal are being asked for an apology and reparations. It's just not news here because we're not Spanish or Portuguese |  | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 20:48 - Oct 27 with 10117 views | bluejacko |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 18:22 - Oct 27 by noggin |
"It’s quite easy really, we can repatriate any descendants of slaves ( Lammy included) who do not like living in the country their forebears arrived in over 200 years ago free of charge if they think they will be better off back in Africa!"
Spoken like a true slave owner. |
Wind your neck in Mr Angry, obviously IF they decided to leave their country for a better life in Africa it would only be polite to do so👍 | | | |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 21:38 - Oct 27 with 10026 views | DJR |
The difference to people like the Romans and the Vikings is that there is no discernible link to people currently in the UK.
This is in contrast to those in or from Caribbean countries, such a Jamaica.
Jamaican surnames have a very similar history and structure to African American surnames in that they broadly a mix of English, Scottish and Welsh surnames. This is because the slave population of Jamaica gradually adopted British surnames of one kind or another in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries as slavery came to an end. Many slaves adopted the surnames of their former owners or individuals who had manumitted them, while in a more benign strain some adopted the surname of a benefactor of some kind. Others may be actually descended from slave owners.
And as this article indicates, there are more Campbells per head of population in Jamaica than there are in Scotland.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13839601.jamaica-country-campbells-per-he
In effect those of Caribbean origin carry with them a perpetual reminder of their slave history,. Indeed, the following article in today's Observer referred to Hamilton Brown, who is believed to have been an ancestor of Kamala Harris’s paternal great-grandmother Christiana Brown, known in the family as Miss Chrishy.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/27/kamala-harris-jamaica-roots
Another factor to take into account is that the Caribbean countries achieved their independence only 60 or so years ago, and they retain close links to the UK through the Commonwealth. [Post edited 28 Oct 2024 8:47]
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| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 21:51 - Oct 27 with 9967 views | nodge_blue |
| Commonwealth calls for reparations. on 16:47 - Oct 26 by Zx1988 |
Can't agree with you there.
There are countless institutions (public and private) that owe their current position to the indentured labour of slaves; the Royal Family included.
It is only right for the ancestors of those who were forced to contribute to such successes to receive their share of the profits. |
Is that true about the royal family having links to the slave trade?
As they are Germans I would have thought it less likely that the current royal family did?
Where do you start and end with reparations? Can we sue the French, the Germans, the Italians and the Scandinavians for invading Britain and killing a large number of people?
That’s a bit of a facile argument I know but I just think it’s impossible to judge history and they put the past onto today’s shoulders. And if nothing else we are broke. On the edge of bankruptcy ourselves. So the cupboard is very bare.
As an aside and a did you know…about 1 million Europeans were enslaved by the Ottoman Empire and sold between the 15th and 19th centuries. They would often land at costal towns round the western med and ransack the towns and enslave the population they could get hold of.
[Post edited 27 Oct 2024 22:07]
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