| Talking of migration 15:03 - May 17 with 2639 views | bluelagos |
When do you think the politicians will be brave enough to explain that without sustained migration, we are in deep sh1t given the falling birth rates? Quick google suggests the UK rate is now around 1.5.
[Post edited 17 May 15:09]
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| Talking of migration on 17:31 - May 17 with 786 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Talking of migration on 16:26 - May 17 by Kievthegreat |
Ignoring microstates, The UK is the 3rd most densely populated country. England is higher, than that, but I'm sure there are subdivisions of other European states that are higher.
Netherlands - 520 people per km2
*England - 434*
Belgium - 383
UK - 277
Germany - 247
Switzerland - 213
Italy - 195
Is it at/towards the top end? Yes.
Is it exceptional? Not really. [Post edited 17 May 17:37]
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Netherlands must be much higher than that, Shirley? |  |
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| Talking of migration on 17:35 - May 17 with 773 views | Kievthegreat |
| Talking of migration on 17:31 - May 17 by Swansea_Blue |
Netherlands must be much higher than that, Shirley? |
You are correct. It's 520. I took a number that included Caribbean Netherlands territories.
Additionally, the Türkiye number is just for the European part of the country, so I'll change those on the original post. [Post edited 17 May 17:36]
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| Talking of migration on 17:36 - May 17 with 764 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Talking of migration on 16:51 - May 17 by Kievthegreat |
If you want to reduce the amount of land being built on, invest in higher population density in cities and put in proper public transport to reduce car use. Make better use of the land. That doesn't mean just stack a couple extra floors on every building, but actually do some urban planning.
If you want to reduce the number of homes being built, tackle things like second homes. There are 100,000s of second homes or empty properties bought for investment, charge the council tax at 1000% on anything unoccupied for more than 6 months or any second property that isn't rented out. Sure some will still pay it, but you'll bring plenty of homes back onto the market that way.
Getting back to population, the issue is simple. If you want people who are just retiring now to still receive a pension and functioning public services in 10-20 years time you absolutely do need migration. Without migrants coming in and giving the country a better demographic profile (i.e. enough people in work to support our growing retired population), those things become unaffordable.
Just to pick up on the green land points, is it actually a problem to build on green land around peoples homes? Presumably those houses were built on green land to start with? Plus if you live on the edge of a town or village, where did you expect any settlement growth to go? In the sky? |
I agree with you about the need for immigration.
But it is a massive ponzi scheme. We need to start looking for other ways of sustaining our nation I think.
As for building, if you have high immigration and then build shi tty crowded estates over the back of villages which used to feel calm and rural, people will resent the immgrants and the destruction of their environment. Rightly or wrongly, that is the effect.
We shouldnt underestimate, by the way, how big a role environment (in the "what is it like where I live, how much peace and greenery is there, sense) plays in mental health etc. [Post edited 17 May 17:43]
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| Talking of migration on 17:36 - May 17 with 761 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
Hardly a huge surprise. For many us born in the 80s, most of our parents had us in their twenties, they owned affordable houses and had no student debt.
Still can’t imagine 700-950k net migration would be sustainable for UK though. |  | | |
| Talking of migration on 17:40 - May 17 with 732 views | NedPlimpton |
| Talking of migration on 17:30 - May 17 by textbackup |
People probably can’t afford to have kids due to the cnts taxing the fck out of us for everything.
Whilst handing money to every Tom dick and Harry. |
Growing wealth inequality is a far bigger issue than Tom, Dick and Harry getting a few handouts
Unless Tom, Dick and Harry are actually Jeff, Elon and Mark? |  | | |
| Talking of migration on 17:44 - May 17 with 707 views | Kievthegreat |
| Talking of migration on 17:40 - May 17 by NedPlimpton |
Growing wealth inequality is a far bigger issue than Tom, Dick and Harry getting a few handouts
Unless Tom, Dick and Harry are actually Jeff, Elon and Mark? |
Reminds me of this:
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| Talking of migration on 18:33 - May 17 with 656 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Talking of migration on 15:53 - May 17 by Kropotkin123 |
There are people that want babies and can't afford homes to raise them. I live in a 2 bed and can't afford a 3 bed, so no space for a 2nd. Time is running out for me. I don't want too big a gap between the 1st (15 month old) and 2nd.
My sister in law is a manager of a retail store, their partner is in an okay IT role. They can't afford a two-bed and are stuck paying too high rents for them to save. They want one. Time is running out for them. She is in her mid-30s.
These stories are a common and my generation has been banging on about housing affordability for ages. Initially we were met with the inability of other generations to recognise the difference, then we were met with ridicule (think, eat less avocados), now I feel like I don't need to argue the point with most people but we still don't have governments that are prepared to tackle the issue in any serious way - reform property tax system, tackle multiple home ownership, regulate rental prices affectively, reform construction (affordability, incentivize less 1/2 bed flat construction), and so on.
As I said in the other thread, migration is a plaster to these underlying issues. We need to deal with these root causes. |
Totally agree - I’m in the same situation. There’s unfortunately very little nuance discussed on here it’s either for unrestricted levels of migration, or none at all. With housing costs for our generation already at record multiples of salary (and set to get worse), it seems bonkers to me to have record migration (and that includes UK nationals returning). The housing numbers promised by Labour won’t even cover the population growth over the next three years, let alone aid the housing crisis. Nobody wants to have a sensible conversation. The Bank of Canada calculated a 6-8pc rise to the cost of housing in areas with high migration levels. The more we grow the population the more it will compound, all these people will need pensions too. We need to reset the system, a means tested state pension for those who need it, and shift the cost to employers.
Those 1m people could fill Bristol twice, they need their own health care, roads, schools, plumbers, dentist etc. Even the young. We’ve had >100k net per year for pretty much the last two decades and the shortage of NHS staff (and other professions) hasn’t been solved - we’re just compounding it. Not to mention the morality of depriving other countries of medical staff they need, and paid to train. My industry increasingly looks abroad for trained professionals rather than training up people - that’s not what it should be for. Where migration levels are now still isn’t covering the cost of pensions, it’s provided very little growth, and actually seen GDP frequently declining on a per capita basis (which will mean less tax take per head)
I think most people appreciate some level of migration is essential, but with housing cost what they are, it looks very much unstainablr without further increasing the cost of living and putting pressure on wages. I just wish people could be objective around it the way you have. | | | |
| Talking of migration on 18:37 - May 17 with 656 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
| Talking of migration on 17:30 - May 17 by textbackup |
People probably can’t afford to have kids due to the cnts taxing the fck out of us for everything.
Whilst handing money to every Tom dick and Harry. |
Rishi Sunak tax return when PM showed he paid 22.8% tax on £2.2m earnings. Maybe the hand outs to every Tom Dick and Harry aren’t the biggest problem. |  |
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| Talking of migration on 21:53 - May 17 with 553 views | NIblue |
| Talking of migration on 17:07 - May 17 by BlueBadger |
Public services have been cut to the bone over the past decades. What's actually happened is that people not getting adequate support and services has meant that minor problems(from holes in the road to health) that would now been sorted out by the public sector now end up escalating and ultimately need more expensive solutions rather than basic maintenance. Austerity is a false economy, [Post edited 17 May 17:17]
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I didn’t mention the NHS, it obviously needs a massive cash injection.
I would be pretty sure the figures from a government spending audit would bring out massive levels of incompetence & probably corruption if truth be told. |  | | |
| Talking of migration on 21:59 - May 17 with 540 views | NIblue |
| Talking of migration on 17:26 - May 17 by BlueBadger |
And that's before we get into DOGE not actually being anything to do with 'efficiency' and all to do with hamstringing agencies that were investigating Elon Musk and then funnelling more money to him. |
What the hell would Elon Musk need more money for?
That’s not even a good conspiracy theory | | | |
| Talking of migration on 22:16 - May 17 with 514 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Talking of migration on 21:59 - May 17 by NIblue |
What the hell would Elon Musk need more money for?
That’s not even a good conspiracy theory |
I would guess because the richest people never seem to have enough.
The richest people in the world have so much money they couldn't even spend it all if they wanted and try to do so. Does that stop them earning more? Does it make them give 99% of it away so they can live extremely comfortably still? |  |
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| Talking of migration on 22:17 - May 17 with 514 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
I have just read this reply from the onceablue thread that I refuse to bump and it is well worth repeating (especially for any one who can't see it if they are ignoring onceablue). It is from SyntaxBlue:
Posts like this disappoint me so much as a human being.
Why have we allowed immigration to be demonised so much. The again, why did we allow Europe to be so demonised. Why do we allow woke to be used as a term of disgust.
Why in 2025 is racism, homophobia, sexism, any form of intolerance being given platforms to spread their hate.
We are failing as human beings.
To answer the OP:
Do you like food? Go for a curry or Chinese or pizza occasionally? Or those strawberries, picked for you by someone? Immigrants say hello.
Do you like music? Maybe a bit of ska, reggae, dance music, Northern Soul? Immigrants invited us to dance with them.
I am sure you see the Battle of Britain as one of the defining parts of the ‘Great British Spirit’ Did you know that those same Poles who ‘took your jobs’ last decade had the best squadron during the battle that epitomised British spirit?
Do you use the NHS? Your Philippine or Nigerian born nurse might hear your views, but will still do their best to make you better.
How about football? Not sure you like that, as I have never seen you post about football. But let’s just pick one. Our captain fantastic.
Samy Sayed Mekkay Saied Morsy was born on 10 September 1991 in Wolverhampton. His father, Mekawy, came from Egypt and met his mother, Karen.
Oh look, an immigrant brought Sam Morsy into the world.
Do you like the fact that you live in one of the richest countries in the world? Your colonial servants who gave you that wealth can’t protest as they are long dead, having spent their lives enriching yours.
It’s like that Monty Python skit. ‘What did the Roman’s do for us’
I do not know you OP. I do not call you a rascist or a fascist. I grew up in apartheid South Africa. (Born in UK, so you can’t write me off as a bloody immigrant), so I know very well what an intolerance is.
An excellent summary of points. NB: The OP referred to is onceablue and not Lagos. | |
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| Talking of migration on 22:19 - May 17 with 514 views | Lamp |
| Talking of migration on 17:30 - May 17 by textbackup |
People probably can’t afford to have kids due to the cnts taxing the fck out of us for everything.
Whilst handing money to every Tom dick and Harry. |
They are taxing you to pay for pensioners. If we don’t have immigration taxes would be even higher.
Taxation is going to get even worse as cigarette and fuel duty receipts continue to plummet. I’m unsure what it will be replaced with given the media continue to give credence to the pay per mile/15 minute city conspiracists. |  | | |
| Talking of migration on 22:41 - May 17 with 471 views | baxterbasics |
Globally, population growth is slowing and expected to stall and flip negative around 2050 if current trends continue. |  |
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| Talking of migration on 22:44 - May 17 with 470 views | Pendejo |
| Talking of migration on 17:30 - May 17 by textbackup |
People probably can’t afford to have kids due to the cnts taxing the fck out of us for everything.
Whilst handing money to every Tom dick and Harry. |
Taxation or the profiteering that followed the privatisation of the utilities?
Tax at least is (in theory) used to pay for things we need; hospitals, schools, the Police, the royal family... Hmm 🤔
The utility companies are largely foreign owned with money leaking out of the country in dividends
Making housing a commodity... |  |
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| Talking of migration on 22:50 - May 17 with 469 views | blueasfook |
| Talking of migration on 22:41 - May 17 by baxterbasics |
Globally, population growth is slowing and expected to stall and flip negative around 2050 if current trends continue. |
The start of human extinction hopefully. We are a cancer on this planet. |  |
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| Talking of migration on 11:50 - May 18 with 292 views | lowhouseblue |
that's something that should be at the heart of our immigration policy. we need to plan for a medium-term demographic hump of older age groups. if we recognise that then it gives us criteria for planning immigration - criteria such as bringing in people who will be economically active, add to gdp per head, increase productivity, and be net fiscal contributors. we also want immigration to be consistent with our housing stock so that people here can afford to have children. the thing is that those criteria don't justify the current 750,000 net immigration a year or the current skills mix and economic activity mix. for example having some 1.2 million foreign national between 18 and 64 (excluding students) in the uk who are not economically active makes the issue you identify worse not better.
so demographic trends are an entirely valid basis for discussing policy and the right level of net immigration - it clearly isn't zero. but it still doesn't justify what we are currently seeing. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Talking of migration on 12:00 - May 18 with 275 views | OldFart71 |
Yes I know I'm an old fart. Perhaps with outdated ideas. But when I was a kid living in a small village only wealthy and business people had their own homes.
The rest of the village worked locally on farms, in shops and in factories in Stowmarket.
Not many mums worked and we lived in Council houses.
With man and wife. or partners both having to work this has had an adverse effect on the birth rate. Even renting now requires two to work and I feel this is where the problem occurs.
Governments talk about affordable housing. What is affordable ? Of course it varies from family to family. But Council housing allowed most low income families to have a roof over their heads and whilst there's a bit of a stigma regarding having a Council house against buying private there's absolutely nothing wrong with local authority housing.
A lot can be blamed on Thatcher for her right to buy and whilst I will be eternally grateful as it gave me a hand up on the property ladder in hindsight it was ill thought out as the money should have been made available to reinvest in building more. | | | |
| Talking of migration on 12:01 - May 18 with 270 views | m14_blue |
| Talking of migration on 17:02 - May 17 by NIblue |
They could start by stopping sending billions of taxpayer £££ to fund foreign wars.
Also the mother of all audits (a la DOGE of you will) on government spending, corruption, general wastage, looking at trimming of government agencies etc
Not reform specific, but I would encourage any government to do all of the above to start a much needed financial recovery [Post edited 17 May 17:03]
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Ah yes, widespread reductions in public spending will definitely spark financial recovery.
You've only got to look at the last 15 years to see that. | | | |
| Talking of migration on 12:38 - May 18 with 209 views | NIblue |
| Talking of migration on 12:01 - May 18 by m14_blue |
Ah yes, widespread reductions in public spending will definitely spark financial recovery.
You've only got to look at the last 15 years to see that. |
Where did I say public spending? Everyone knows the NHS is on it’s knees due to lack of funding & wait for it…immigration levels | | | |
| Talking of migration on 12:42 - May 18 with 201 views | NIblue |
| Talking of migration on 22:16 - May 17 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I would guess because the richest people never seem to have enough.
The richest people in the world have so much money they couldn't even spend it all if they wanted and try to do so. Does that stop them earning more? Does it make them give 99% of it away so they can live extremely comfortably still? |
So the richest man on the planet is resorting to fraud of government agencies, right in front of the public’s eyes? Tin foil hat stuff.
A genuine independent audit on government spending should be welcomed by the public in any country | | | |
| Talking of migration on 12:53 - May 18 with 191 views | DanTheMan |
I don't really like the right-wing obsession with it, see Malcome and Simone Collins for some really weird stuff.
People like libs of tiktok here will get very upset about population decline but then you'd think they'd want immigration but it seems to be a thinly veiled "white people aren't having enough babies". They also don't vote for anything that makes it easier for people to have children. I imagine their ideal solution would be to ban abortion and contraception to force women back into a more traditional role.
With that said the demographic time bomb is worrying. It's not so much that having fewer people is a bad thing, arguably it's a good thing given finite resources. The rate of change between the generations is far too fast though, especially in the Western world. The boomers, who were a substantial cohort, are all approaching or in retirement age and there doesn't seem to be a good plan on how the working population is going to pay for them except for throwing ever more money their way. |  |
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| Talking of migration on 14:00 - May 18 with 124 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Talking of migration on 12:53 - May 18 by DanTheMan |
I don't really like the right-wing obsession with it, see Malcome and Simone Collins for some really weird stuff.
People like libs of tiktok here will get very upset about population decline but then you'd think they'd want immigration but it seems to be a thinly veiled "white people aren't having enough babies". They also don't vote for anything that makes it easier for people to have children. I imagine their ideal solution would be to ban abortion and contraception to force women back into a more traditional role.
With that said the demographic time bomb is worrying. It's not so much that having fewer people is a bad thing, arguably it's a good thing given finite resources. The rate of change between the generations is far too fast though, especially in the Western world. The boomers, who were a substantial cohort, are all approaching or in retirement age and there doesn't seem to be a good plan on how the working population is going to pay for them except for throwing ever more money their way. |
It is however looking like life expectancy has plateaued. I do think we need to discuss how we move on from the state pension - it was never devised to support people for 20 years.
As ever there is no political will to upskill our population, train our next generation of health workers. Or tackle the root cause of the social care crisis- terrible working conditions, pay, and profit driven care. But what we have isn’t working, despite record migration, we have record taxes, falling productivity, weak economic growth (and per capita declines). Eastern Europe, despite falling populations in some cases have achieved much better rates of growth. Japan has has one of the fastest aging populations with very low levels of migration yet manages a better standard of living | | | |
| Talking of migration on 14:22 - May 18 with 100 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Talking of migration on 12:42 - May 18 by NIblue |
So the richest man on the planet is resorting to fraud of government agencies, right in front of the public’s eyes? Tin foil hat stuff.
A genuine independent audit on government spending should be welcomed by the public in any country |
I never said that. I simply answered your question about why a very rich man would want more money. | |
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| Talking of migration on 14:40 - May 18 with 77 views | PimsNumber1 |
| Talking of migration on 15:17 - May 17 by baxterbasics |
Yup, the elephant in the room few people seem to accept.
We need more policies to encourage childbearing and raising in stable homes. It just seems to be getting harder and more expensive for people to do so, particularly the 'just about managing' lower middle class who earn slightly too much to qualify for any state help.
And we need people to stop repeating the overpopulation myth. It's the opposite problem. |
Total nonsense
1.2m immigrants claiming benefits
Uk residents birth rate is low because they can't afford children easily and child care is high
Immigrants are 'fine ' but mainly in low paid jobs or no jobs so probably a net burden on the economy .ie their contribution/ tax payments do not offset their benefits claimed eg NHS and other subsidies . |  | | |
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