| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough league†09:50 - Sep 1 with 6280 views | unstableblue |
…. And a poor start due to errors from new players… and the refrain this morning is “If Cook doesn’t get us automatic promotion he’s a complete fraud” “there are no excuses for Cook not to secure automatic promotion”
I agree play-offs is an absolute must. But this concept that we now have some god given right for automatic promotion seems a little naive - this is league one, this is football, we are now the team everyone wants to beat and play up against.
This amount of squad flux and bedding in is unheard of in our history. It’s going to take time to get all the moving parts in synch. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
You’ve also got Sheff Weds, Sunderland, Wigan, Wycombe, Rotherham, Portsmouth. Are they going to suddenly roll over… “Ipswich squad looks strong here beat us and take the 3 points”
Plus these teams like Burton, MK they are just no pushovers.
You win games through 3 things, and we’ve only got one of those factors through having the best squad (note Sheff Weds, Wigan, Sunderland look good on paper also), you also need confidence/belief/desire/cohesion (where we look miles off currently), and system/tactics (where the buck stops with Cook)
Play offs is a minimum (and hopeful promotion through that route), in a few months starting to dominate teams and show excellence in performance is also a must, and a hope that if it clicks in time to mount a serious top two challenge.
But football is tough…. We’ve no god given right even with the obvious squad strength.
BACK THE PROJECT. This will take time.
|  |
| |  |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:40 - Sep 1 with 987 views | Ryorry |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough league� on 12:29 - Sep 1 by jayessess |
Thing is, I don't think your scenario is a very realistic one.
It's not realistic about the impact of budget on football teams and the expectations that people running football clubs attach to their investment.
It's not realistic about the effects another season in L1 would likely have on the club, including the willingness of the fanbase to renew season tickets for a 4th season in L1, the SMCP difficulties that would entail, the problem of having a bunch of players on big contracts that they aren't living up to, of having other players with unfulfilled career expectations.
It's not realistic about how hostile the fanbase would be after falling short, except under a very very narrow range of circumstances.
I don't think it's very realistic about scenarios where we get to 6th. Are we failing so badly at Christmas that title-winning form in the 2nd half of the season only gets us so far? Cook would be long gone at that point. Are we so inconsistent that we hover around 6th all season and 6th is our peak form? The owners didn't pay all that money to peak as the 6th best team in the league.
People forget that a season is a very long time to be racking up defeats and failures. There's this tendency to engage in dispassionate assessments ("we need continuity, the manager should get 2 seasons come what may") that completely ignore the state the club will actually be in if they happen. [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 12:41]
|
I'm with The Major, who said on p1 of this thread -
"but at the fans forum a few weeks ago, didn't all three of Ashton, O'Leary, and Cook say that if it takes more than a year, then so be it?
However, saying that, I'm assuming that they're thinking heroic failure (lose in playoffs or finish 7th on GD) rather than finish 12th. What will be, will be." |  |
| |
| Oh my God! Mick has gone… let it go!!! on 12:41 - Sep 1 with 990 views | BlueBadger |
| Oh my God! Mick has gone… let it go!!! on 11:42 - Sep 1 by unstableblue |
We’re not talking about the Championship 4 years ago
We’re taking about now
Shall I spell it out SLOWLY… there is NO ‘operation p!ss the league’ we have no god given right… it is going to take a whole series of factors and a bit of luck
If cook doesn’t have us in the play offs and playing brilliant cohesive football come May… HE SHOULD GO
If he doesn’t get a win in Sept then he might have to go!!!
But as the owners stated we may take a year!!
Get a grip |
You can make all the excuses you want. Cook's got his team, he's been well backed. No promotion IS failure. |  |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:45 - Sep 1 with 965 views | unstableblue |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:29 - Sep 1 by Mullet |
Of course not. It’s just embarrassing for the OP and his kindred spirits isn’t it? If it helps, I’m always chuckling with threads like these.
Classic twtd tactic of projecting one’s emotions onto the person pointing out they’re completely wrong as per.
We are seriously hearing talk that being a league and a half below where they list their rag, after even more backing is acceptable and all will come good where doom and gloom was present before…. Hilarious |
If we were standing near each other in the black horse, you overheard something I said and you turned around to me and ranted
“You clueless, fickle and unbelievably entitled hypocrite’
You think that’s OK?
Or calling someone ‘militant’ or ‘dishonest’
We’re all Town fans on a Town fans forum.
Parking that, go back and read my original post really slowly, go on. Then tell why on earth you brought it back to some comparison to opinions about Micks performance in the championship 4 years ago?
I think I was making a valid point, that didn’t require your reaction.
But let’s agree to disagree Mullet. We’re just different and that’s good. | |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough league� on 12:47 - Sep 1 with 957 views | jayessess |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:40 - Sep 1 by Ryorry |
I'm with The Major, who said on p1 of this thread -
"but at the fans forum a few weeks ago, didn't all three of Ashton, O'Leary, and Cook say that if it takes more than a year, then so be it?
However, saying that, I'm assuming that they're thinking heroic failure (lose in playoffs or finish 7th on GD) rather than finish 12th. What will be, will be." |
The owners will have a contingency plan for if/when things go wrong, they'd be negligent if they didn't.
But if they think everything will be rosy under most of the scenarios where we aren't promoted, they're not being realistic. [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 12:48]
|  |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:47 - Sep 1 with 957 views | Mullet |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:45 - Sep 1 by unstableblue |
If we were standing near each other in the black horse, you overheard something I said and you turned around to me and ranted
“You clueless, fickle and unbelievably entitled hypocrite’
You think that’s OK?
Or calling someone ‘militant’ or ‘dishonest’
We’re all Town fans on a Town fans forum.
Parking that, go back and read my original post really slowly, go on. Then tell why on earth you brought it back to some comparison to opinions about Micks performance in the championship 4 years ago?
I think I was making a valid point, that didn’t require your reaction.
But let’s agree to disagree Mullet. We’re just different and that’s good. |
This isn’t the black horse is it? This is a long running set of manifestos from you where you’ve done the same for years and more.
How would I know what a stranger has said and thought for years in a pub? Your analogy is false. I just can’t wait to see us start winning frankly rather than hearing about it being imminent and so much better. |  |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:50 - Sep 1 with 943 views | unstableblue |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:38 - Sep 1 by Oldboy |
I would say that if we are not in or very close to top 10 at Xmas then Cook will be gone. The owners have backed him heavily this window and would expect top 10 as a minimum by then. |
Agreed
I think the difference this season is that Ashton and OLeary are football people, and will be assessing these performances much more clinically than Marcus ever could.
At present there have probably been enough good aspects to Towns performances that Cook is getting a pass for the lack of wins.
Individual errors and a lack of familiarity, bedding in.
He’ll get some furthe leeway with 3 new signings.
But if our new leaders see a regression rather than progression linked to results Cook won’t last.
Cook needs at least a win in September probably two.
Albeit as someone has pointed out, you don’t back a manager to this level and then not give him time. | |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:52 - Sep 1 with 937 views | gordon |
Given the amount of investment the sole target is promotion. Anything else is a disaster. There's also no way that the pension fund are going to be able to justify funding lots of failed attempts to get promotion from League One - maybe another season, that's it. |  | | |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:52 - Sep 1 with 935 views | Keaneish |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 09:57 - Sep 1 by itfcjoe |
Make excuses as much as you want - but promotion is the only show in town this year and it has to be achieved.
There are likely some scenarios where not achieving it won't be seen as a total failure and where Cook may retain his job.
No-one says we have a god given right to go up, but we have put a squad together who is capable of it, we have a manager who has been there and done it on more than one occasion.
Cook is under huge pressure now, and there will be no one putting him under more pressure than himself.
Too many fans have talked about the club settling for mediocrity - we have a proven winner in charge, an overpowered squad and the pressure is on.
Cook knows the score here, and will back himself 100%. The road won't be smooth - but if we don't improve soon then he knows he is bang in trouble.
The club isn't going to be allowed to drift like it did under Lambert in this league, and where being in contention for the play offs is seen as good enough |
Agreed but let’s all remember, there are 41 games left, not 5. |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:55 - Sep 1 with 925 views | gordon |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough league� on 12:47 - Sep 1 by jayessess |
The owners will have a contingency plan for if/when things go wrong, they'd be negligent if they didn't.
But if they think everything will be rosy under most of the scenarios where we aren't promoted, they're not being realistic. [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 12:48]
|
The contingency plans will have been built into the ownership structure etc. there will be an escape route for ORG where they can stop funding it if it isn't going anywhere. | | | |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:06 - Sep 1 with 893 views | jayessess |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 12:50 - Sep 1 by unstableblue |
Agreed
I think the difference this season is that Ashton and OLeary are football people, and will be assessing these performances much more clinically than Marcus ever could.
At present there have probably been enough good aspects to Towns performances that Cook is getting a pass for the lack of wins.
Individual errors and a lack of familiarity, bedding in.
He’ll get some furthe leeway with 3 new signings.
But if our new leaders see a regression rather than progression linked to results Cook won’t last.
Cook needs at least a win in September probably two.
Albeit as someone has pointed out, you don’t back a manager to this level and then not give him time. |
I agree the bar for September will still be pretty low. It'll go upwards pretty quickly thereafter though, near enough play-off form October-December, promotion form Jan-May. | |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:10 - Sep 1 with 887 views | FBI |
There are three factors at play here.
1. Hope
2. Expectation
3. Reality
1. Of course we all hope we'll go up. But we also know that hopes can be cruelly dashed through a number of factors beyond our (by which I mean the club's) control. We still hope, however.
2. Expectation. Looking at the empirical evidence and putting aside liking (or not) for Cook/some of the players/retention & recruitment decisions etc., we have a strong squad that, on its day, should be good enough to breeze into the top 6, if not higher.
3. Reality. Now, this is where it gets tricky. The reality is that we've had a slow start due to a lot of changes in a very short time. Ashton only started officially on June 1st and brought in the first of 19 players two days later. Other clubs have brought in players but very few have completely changed the structure of the entire club in three - four months. The other grim reality is that there are a host of other clubs out there with the same hopes, expectations and, to an extent, realities. They, too, are striving for promotion. There are more viable challengers than there are spots available and at least three will be disappointed in the playoffs, never mind those in 7th, 8th and possibly 9th places. And here's the thing that we're not considering fully: most of those clubs will be at least as good as us. Yep. There will be lots of teams that we'd usually expect a draw against because they're on the same level as us. But we have to beat them. Trouble is, they also want to beat us.
Personally I HOPE we'll go up in the automatic places. I EXPECT we'll make the playoff final and, with a bit of luck, beat a side of the same standard as us. But the REALITY is that we might lose out and have to wait until next year. And, assuming we don't carry on as we are now, I'll take that.
Reluctantly.
But I'll take that. |  |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:13 - Sep 1 with 868 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 10:19 - Sep 1 by The_Major |
Whilst I agree going up should be expected, and I stand to be corrected, but at the fans forum a few weeks ago, didn't all three of Ashton, O'Leary, and Cook say that if it takes more than a year, then so be it?
However, saying that, I'm assuming that they're thinking heroic failure (lose in playoffs or finish 7th on GD) rather than finish 12th. What will be, will be. |
Indeed. This is all us more conservative posters are saying. That's very far from "accepting mediocrity." |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:19 - Sep 1 with 844 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 10:25 - Sep 1 by Mullet |
I assume it's because they got shown up as the clueless, fickle and unbelievably entitled hypocrites they now look by being so militant and dishonest this time around?
We should never even be in this league, maybe going up means they're scared of being shown up again after positioning themselves as such experts and true fans compared to the rest of us? |
Wowsers. I think you need a w@nk mate, so much pent up tension. Hilarious that you call others entitled yet think we should never ever be in this league.
I'm struggling to see who you're getting so angry at anyway, who are these people who think they're experts/true fans/being fickle and dishonest? | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:24 - Sep 1 with 827 views | Vic |
I see you put “If Cook doesn’t get us automatic promotion he’s a complete fraud” as a quite. Who exactly said this? I think you’re putting words into people’s mouths - as is your comment about auto promotion being some sort of ‘god given right’. Really, no one is saying that. All some of us assaying is that with this squad it ought to be achievable.
We all know it’s what we’re targeting, but equally we all know that we might not make it.
And as far as I can tell everyone single person on this board is currently ‘backing the project’. No one is saying Cook should go. Even Joe hasn’t put any ifs or buts in his comments today! But I will! The fact remains that so far Cook has had a dismal record here at ITFC and he needs to improve it quickly. I honestly expect him to now he’s got Morsy and another GK in. But it doesn’t always happen, and just pointing that out doesn’t mean I’m not behind the project. In fact it means I am even more so, because the project isn’t Paul Cook, the project is promotion and consolidation in the championship, regardless of who is manager. |  |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:25 - Sep 1 with 814 views | jayessess |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:13 - Sep 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Indeed. This is all us more conservative posters are saying. That's very far from "accepting mediocrity." |
We're the 3rd biggest club in this division and have outside investment beyond any other club in the division. I don't see how 7th isn't a massive massive under-achievement, I really don't. | |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:25 - Sep 1 with 810 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 11:10 - Sep 1 by Ryorry |
Exactly - and there seem to be quite a few people who think football is just a question of progression based on logic - "we have a and b, therefore c must follow in d amount of time".
If only it were a mathematical formula - we'd be there already! |
100%. Some act on here like it's a computer game. i'm an absolute legend on Championship Manager 17 because after years of playing I know the best formation and tactics to more often than not win matches, even if the players on paper aren't the best. Unfortunately that's not real football. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:28 - Sep 1 with 800 views | jayessess |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:25 - Sep 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
100%. Some act on here like it's a computer game. i'm an absolute legend on Championship Manager 17 because after years of playing I know the best formation and tactics to more often than not win matches, even if the players on paper aren't the best. Unfortunately that's not real football. |
In real life football more often than not the richest clubs win promotion and sack their manager if they don't. | |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:30 - Sep 1 with 786 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough league� on 11:46 - Sep 1 by jayessess |
It's not that though, is it? If we all thought promotion was guaranteed we'd all be emptying the savings and running to the bookies.
Nobody thinks the rest of the league will roll over or that anything will be given to us. But lots of us think that "par" for a good manager at a well run club is to achieve on the pitch something that reflects the financial resources available to you.
It's not impossible that we finish 10th with one of the biggest (if not the biggest) budget in the league. But it would be a terrible performance by the club. It would mean that 9 other League One managers had out-performed ours and it would be obvious that we should pursue a change. [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 11:49]
|
I don't think anyone would disagree with that. No-one's suggesting 10th would be good enough. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:31 - Sep 1 with 784 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 11:46 - Sep 1 by homer_123 |
'...bile and anger...'
What are you reading? Where is any of that below? |
Have you not read Mullet's post on the first page? Reads like he has steam coming out of his ears. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:33 - Sep 1 with 781 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 11:51 - Sep 1 by timothyeo |
No one on TWTD?
There's been posters happy with us finishing top half this season. Pretty sure someone called Wallingford springs to mind, but I can't be bothered to go through old posts. |
I've not seen a single person happy with just finishing top half. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| Totally agree…. on 13:43 - Sep 1 with 757 views | Guthrum |
| Totally agree…. on 12:15 - Sep 1 by unstableblue |
BUT does that mean that in the time remaining we’ll win more games than Sheffield Weds, Wigan, Sunderland, Wycombe, Rotherham???
Only time will tell
But your right our expectation given the quality of squad and manager has to be play-offs minimum but critically playing very positive, aggressive and cohesive football come May.
The football Gods are cruel Guthrie, and you need a bit of luck to get the confidence and a run going. That has yet to happen.
Also we are THE team to beat!! |
It puts us into a very good position to do so - to be expected to succeed in doing so. Yes, we will have to play better than everybody else, but we'd have to do that anyway (bar a maximum of one team) to reach the top two.
The slow start does mean that we'll now have to take points from those teams, we can't rely on just beating all the rest to get a total which puts us into contention. And we can't really afford any more runs of poor form. Or significant injury crises. Tho, again, that's what it would take to top the division whatever happened.
Either we have one of the best squads and one of the best managers in League One, with a much strengthened backroom setup, or we don't and all the money and effort of this transfer window has been wasted. |  |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:44 - Sep 1 with 753 views | Skip_Intro |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:33 - Sep 1 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I've not seen a single person happy with just finishing top half. |
I'd ask for my money back if they didn't finish off the bottom half tbh... |  | | |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:45 - Sep 1 with 752 views | chicoazul |
Remember when you said it would be impossible for us to sign at least 12 new players? Yeah. |  |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 14:06 - Sep 1 with 707 views | unstableblue |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:10 - Sep 1 by FBI |
There are three factors at play here.
1. Hope
2. Expectation
3. Reality
1. Of course we all hope we'll go up. But we also know that hopes can be cruelly dashed through a number of factors beyond our (by which I mean the club's) control. We still hope, however.
2. Expectation. Looking at the empirical evidence and putting aside liking (or not) for Cook/some of the players/retention & recruitment decisions etc., we have a strong squad that, on its day, should be good enough to breeze into the top 6, if not higher.
3. Reality. Now, this is where it gets tricky. The reality is that we've had a slow start due to a lot of changes in a very short time. Ashton only started officially on June 1st and brought in the first of 19 players two days later. Other clubs have brought in players but very few have completely changed the structure of the entire club in three - four months. The other grim reality is that there are a host of other clubs out there with the same hopes, expectations and, to an extent, realities. They, too, are striving for promotion. There are more viable challengers than there are spots available and at least three will be disappointed in the playoffs, never mind those in 7th, 8th and possibly 9th places. And here's the thing that we're not considering fully: most of those clubs will be at least as good as us. Yep. There will be lots of teams that we'd usually expect a draw against because they're on the same level as us. But we have to beat them. Trouble is, they also want to beat us.
Personally I HOPE we'll go up in the automatic places. I EXPECT we'll make the playoff final and, with a bit of luck, beat a side of the same standard as us. But the REALITY is that we might lose out and have to wait until next year. And, assuming we don't carry on as we are now, I'll take that.
Reluctantly.
But I'll take that. |
Good post.
I hope we get automatic promotion
I expect us to be in the mix come May
Reality is getting out of this league is hard and there many factors to hamper that goal, bedding in this amount of change being one | |
| |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 14:07 - Sep 1 with 704 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Come off it TWTD!! 19 new players.. many of them just arrived.. a tough leagueï¿ on 13:25 - Sep 1 by jayessess |
We're the 3rd biggest club in this division and have outside investment beyond any other club in the division. I don't see how 7th isn't a massive massive under-achievement, I really don't. |
It would be, I'm not disagreeing. Not sure anyone is. But as Joe acknowledges on page 1 "There are likely some scenarios where not achieving it won't be seen as a total failure and where Cook may retain his job." That's all I'm suggesting.
Dunno why this isn't coming across but there seems to be a lot of straw-manning on here and people being very careful how they word things so they have a get out. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
