| Our country is really in the gutter 20:55 - Jul 31 with 7794 views | TresBonne |
Just seen it's kicked off at Downing Street tonight too.
Honestly, when will it end. I don't have kids yet but am planning on it in 5-6 years time, and it just makes me wonder - is it actually worth bringing children up in this nation any more?
I log into my social feed on X or Facebook, which I want to use for just looking at football related goodness, and it's constant 'stabbing here' this, 'riot here' that. I even saw one in Christchurch park from today. A sleepy, Suffolk town like Ipswich is not even safe any more.
Large groups of just pure hatred, anger and a lot more, from all walks of life, nationalities, positions on the political spectrum having it out with police and rioting. Constant stabbings and just more horrible things in the news.
It makes me wonder how many common sense, kind, nice, middle-ground people we are leaving in the world. It seems to just be heading in a complete split of opinion all over the place.
Call this the 'positive news story thread' or something.
We were once the greatest nation in the world. Now, we're in disarray. Upsetting.
Social media is playing a huge part in all of this too, a massive problem.
If someone can link me some good news stories they've seen from this week, I'd genuinely appreciate it and it might cheer me up a bit. I haven't read anything in what seems like forever that really makes me smile. [Post edited 31 Jul 2024 21:00]
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:32 - Jul 31 with 1405 views | positivity |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:27 - Jul 31 by Europablue |
Defending what? You will have to quote me on something you think that I have said because I feel like you are plucking that out of thin air.
We should take it as read that no-one supports attacking a mosque, which is violence against peaceful people and riots and attacking police are both bad.
I don't like the concept of "Islamophobia" it is basically saying that you can't have an opinion on something and you can't be rude. If you are not legally permitted to be rude, then we have no freedom. We have social punishments for people who say horrible things in that we don't associate with people.
If you were my flatmate and our other flatmate stole my milk, my anger would be justified. If I blamed you for something you didn't do, that would not be legitimate, if I got violent towards you, then that would be even less legitimate.
Anger needs somewhere to go and in a healthy society we should be able to discuss things rather than get violent. Please tell me if there is anything specific you take issue with. I think you and most posters on this forum are open-hearted and sincere. |
again that is a complete misunderstanding of islamophobia and anti-semitism, your repetition of it despite being corrected suggests a deliberate wish to stir things up.
maybe it's time for this troll to get back under his bridge? |  |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:37 - Jul 31 with 1395 views | eireblue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:27 - Jul 31 by Europablue |
Defending what? You will have to quote me on something you think that I have said because I feel like you are plucking that out of thin air.
We should take it as read that no-one supports attacking a mosque, which is violence against peaceful people and riots and attacking police are both bad.
I don't like the concept of "Islamophobia" it is basically saying that you can't have an opinion on something and you can't be rude. If you are not legally permitted to be rude, then we have no freedom. We have social punishments for people who say horrible things in that we don't associate with people.
If you were my flatmate and our other flatmate stole my milk, my anger would be justified. If I blamed you for something you didn't do, that would not be legitimate, if I got violent towards you, then that would be even less legitimate.
Anger needs somewhere to go and in a healthy society we should be able to discuss things rather than get violent. Please tell me if there is anything specific you take issue with. I think you and most posters on this forum are open-hearted and sincere. |
A helpful definition for you, to save you having to use quote marks.
Islamophobia is the irrational fear of, hostility towards, or prejudice against the religion of Islam or Muslims in general. |  | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:37 - Jul 31 with 1391 views | Bigalhunter |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 22:45 - Jul 31 by Europablue |
Explaining something is not the same as condoning or agreeing with it.
Actual racism is very rare, it's all about culture.
Put an Indian next to a Pakistani and most people can't distinguish between them, and yet people aren't upset about Sikhs and Hindus.
There are a lot of great Muslims, our very own Captain is a shining example. I believe tithing is a general tenant of Islam and that is a great thing. The problem of Islam in the UK is about people who have not integrated and think that they can continue practices that are not compatible with British society.
People like you calling anyone who has a legitimate concern a bigot and racist are enablers.
Yes, condemn anyone who has been violent or racist, but don't allow that to deflect attention from a real problem and don't enable cowardly politicians who want to swerve the issue and concentrate on people who channel their righteous anger in disgusting ways. |
‘Put an Indian next to a Pakistani and most people can't distinguish between them’
Can’t quite believe you actually thought that, let alone decided to type it. |  |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:48 - Jul 31 with 1353 views | eireblue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 22:29 - Jul 31 by LuciBlue |
You can't simplify the situation in the country today into racists and non-racists. |
Hmmmm, typical racists and non-racists are in different parts of a Venn Diagram.
So using those categories can be quite useful when trying to get into more specific problem areas and looking for solutions. | | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:53 - Jul 31 with 1333 views | WicklowBlue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 22:45 - Jul 31 by Europablue |
Explaining something is not the same as condoning or agreeing with it.
Actual racism is very rare, it's all about culture.
Put an Indian next to a Pakistani and most people can't distinguish between them, and yet people aren't upset about Sikhs and Hindus.
There are a lot of great Muslims, our very own Captain is a shining example. I believe tithing is a general tenant of Islam and that is a great thing. The problem of Islam in the UK is about people who have not integrated and think that they can continue practices that are not compatible with British society.
People like you calling anyone who has a legitimate concern a bigot and racist are enablers.
Yes, condemn anyone who has been violent or racist, but don't allow that to deflect attention from a real problem and don't enable cowardly politicians who want to swerve the issue and concentrate on people who channel their righteous anger in disgusting ways. |
Oh bloody hell, where to start with this!!!!
"Actual racism is very rare, it's all about culture.
Put an Indian next to a Pakistani and most people can't distinguish between them, and yet people aren't upset about Sikhs and Hindus."
You need to realise what you just stated above is in fact racism!!!
A great example that racism is ever present in our societies, but same is just ignored/excused/dismissed and then followed up with whataboutery to defend a racist stance.
Seriously you need to educate yourself and realise there is absolutely no defending your positon/thoughts in this space. Being polite you have no clue what you are saying, being less than polite you are talking sh1t! |  | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:56 - Jul 31 with 1312 views | LuciBlue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:37 - Jul 31 by Bigalhunter |
‘Put an Indian next to a Pakistani and most people can't distinguish between them’
Can’t quite believe you actually thought that, let alone decided to type it. |
How would you distinguish between them? Most of us would just see two people standing next to each other. |  |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:56 - Jul 31 with 1305 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:53 - Jul 31 by WicklowBlue |
Oh bloody hell, where to start with this!!!!
"Actual racism is very rare, it's all about culture.
Put an Indian next to a Pakistani and most people can't distinguish between them, and yet people aren't upset about Sikhs and Hindus."
You need to realise what you just stated above is in fact racism!!!
A great example that racism is ever present in our societies, but same is just ignored/excused/dismissed and then followed up with whataboutery to defend a racist stance.
Seriously you need to educate yourself and realise there is absolutely no defending your positon/thoughts in this space. Being polite you have no clue what you are saying, being less than polite you are talking sh1t! |
Thank goodness. Someone who can point out his bs better than my efforts |  | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 06:15 - Aug 1 with 1172 views | chicoazul |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 22:15 - Jul 31 by Europablue |
Norway or Denmark, yes, but Sweden has been destroyed by tolerance. |
Norway is the worst country in the world. Poisoning the rest of the world while their tiny population profiteers, they’re utterly loathsome. [Post edited 1 Aug 2024 6:17]
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 06:57 - Aug 1 with 1128 views | noggin |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 22:24 - Jul 31 by LuciBlue |
Apparently there a growing feeling of National Shame in Norway due to the country benefitting from increased oil revenue during the Russian invasion of Ukraine. |
Nonsense. |  |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 07:04 - Aug 1 with 1118 views | noggin |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 06:15 - Aug 1 by chicoazul |
Norway is the worst country in the world. Poisoning the rest of the world while their tiny population profiteers, they’re utterly loathsome. [Post edited 1 Aug 2024 6:17]
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| Well played. (n/t) on 07:05 - Aug 1 with 1110 views | BlueBadger |
| Well played. (n/t) on 22:23 - Jul 31 by Swansea_Blue |
It’s a hard thing to deal with when someone wants to just give up. I don’t envy you having to deal with that. |
It's a fine line between 'given up', which is more a state of mind in which things seem hopeless but there *could* still be things doing and a meaningful life to be lived and 'acceptance', which is a wholly different thing.
In this case the patient in question had fully accepted where their disease process was taking them and the specialist team looking after them hadn't quite seen where things were going and had gotten into a 'keep on flogging them' mentality(it sometimes happens with very specialist people). |  |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 08:03 - Aug 1 with 1028 views | Mullet |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:27 - Jul 31 by Europablue |
Defending what? You will have to quote me on something you think that I have said because I feel like you are plucking that out of thin air.
We should take it as read that no-one supports attacking a mosque, which is violence against peaceful people and riots and attacking police are both bad.
I don't like the concept of "Islamophobia" it is basically saying that you can't have an opinion on something and you can't be rude. If you are not legally permitted to be rude, then we have no freedom. We have social punishments for people who say horrible things in that we don't associate with people.
If you were my flatmate and our other flatmate stole my milk, my anger would be justified. If I blamed you for something you didn't do, that would not be legitimate, if I got violent towards you, then that would be even less legitimate.
Anger needs somewhere to go and in a healthy society we should be able to discuss things rather than get violent. Please tell me if there is anything specific you take issue with. I think you and most posters on this forum are open-hearted and sincere. |
I will have to quote you? Seems a very different tone you’re adopting now doesn’t it?
You replied to my post condemning racist chanting (having repeatedly denied Islamophobia and trying to diminish it) with
“ I didn't hear any of the things that were said, so I have no opinion on that, I'm just commenting in a general sense.”
So why are you replying directly to that post with a bunch of weak analogies and apologising for that behaviour which you “didn’t hear”? Yet you seem to have quite strong opinions on things you didn’t hear/see throughout these threads and always look to diminish the “anger” of people spitting on the memory of those kids, to justify their appalling behaviour and thoughts.
Why is that? What is it you see in the EDL and the mob that is worth defending and both siding?
Why should Muslims repeatedly accept being targets, made to fear, made to pick up the pieces? |  |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 08:27 - Aug 1 with 970 views | Mercian |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 21:16 - Jul 31 by NedPlimpton |
Out of interest, what would you say is the greatest nation in the world now? What would you like to aspire to? |
New Zealand looks nice. |  | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 08:34 - Aug 1 with 957 views | itfcjoe |
Bad actors being funded by hostile states to drive up division in the West and our socially liberal communities.
Go outside and walk around, don't worry about what you see on News Alerts on your phone |  |
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| Lola Anderson's story.... on 08:37 - Aug 1 with 941 views | Churchman |
| Lola Anderson's story.... on 22:02 - Jul 31 by BlueBadger |
Was called out to an elderly person today.
They didn't want any more treatment, had had enough and just wanted to stop with the blood tests, the horrible medications, the endless night time disturbances for observations and he wanted to see their grandkids and their dogs.
I managed to round up a sympathetic consultant who sat down with them, agreed to switch to comfort care after gave one of the best, most sensitive chats with a desperately sick person I've ever seen.
Meantime, I managed to organise getting the dogs in to visit(most hospitals have a pet visiting policy, if you look hard enough) and supported the ward in getting them out for an hour in the sun with the grandkids.
When we get back to the ward, the nurse in charge reported that they hadn't seen them smile for a fortnight.
It's the little things sometimes. |
Well done. You are right - it’s the little things sometimes.
As is known on here, I’ve witnessed first hand the kindness of so many people on a couple of occasions in the past year. The majority of people are kind.
At St Elizabeth’s for example, on the last night I wanted to take a bit of time out in the middle if the night. There is a lounge area so I used that. Without asking, a nurse brought me a blanket, pillow and a cup of tea. She didn’t have to do that. It was a little thing, but actually little things matter.
That place is largely staffed by volunteers. Amazing people, as indeed have all the people been supporting Mrs C this year.
Perhaps if there was more focus on those who do good things like the bloke who sorted out that wall, the world would be a better place. |  | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 08:53 - Aug 1 with 911 views | giant_stow |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 08:34 - Aug 1 by itfcjoe |
Bad actors being funded by hostile states to drive up division in the West and our socially liberal communities.
Go outside and walk around, don't worry about what you see on News Alerts on your phone |
Think you've probably nailed it. Low grade idiots are being stirred up ruthlessly by groups and people who in other circumstances would be called terrorists. The timing is no mistake - new non-Tory, non russia-funded govt, left with a mess, not least a seriously over crowded prison system. This is feeling like a hybrid war style attack, facilitated by shills finally spending the power that they've being building up through social media. |  |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 09:25 - Aug 1 with 863 views | Europablue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:24 - Jul 31 by Swansea_Blue |
“Just means being rude”.
Islamophobia is a hate crime, minimum sentence 6 months, but can be much more depending on the details of the crime. Seriously, try to learn about this and start questioning your sources. |
What behaviour exactly are you referring to?
You need to be much more specific when you condescendingly try to educate people.
The dictionary definition of Islamophobia is: dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.
When you recklessly state "Islamophobia is a hate crime, minimum sentence 6 months" you are stating that dislike of Islam comes with a minimum sentence of 6 months.
The law is broken when it protects one group over others. Why should one man's deeply held beliefs be protected over another man's deeply held beliefs? Why should religious people be granted the right not to be offended? The whole point of our system is fairness and the theory is that we are supposed to be equal, so you can't privilege any group based on religion.
The violence is the real issue. There is also a line where being rude turns into harassment.
Do you think it should be illegal to draw the prophet Muhammed? Can we mock Christians and not Muslims and Jews? What are the criteria? How do we make a workable system from that? | | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 09:26 - Aug 1 with 858 views | Europablue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:18 - Jul 31 by reusersfreekicks |
I can hazard a guess.... |
Even I could hear that dog whistle, and I don't usually hear them. | | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 09:34 - Aug 1 with 836 views | OldFart71 |
I do feel one of the biggest problems is immigration, whether legal or otherwise. I am not against people coming in to Britain. But so many and we have no idea their motives for coming here. For instance watched a programme last night about a murder of a young man. Yes he was involved with the selling of drugs. But according to the people who knew him he wanted to change, but was doing so because he was looking after his younger brother. He was stabbed to death by Somalians. The motives unknown. They all tried to flee the Country. Five were apprehended and one was arrested abroad. They were all proved to be guilty and jailed. Many for 23 or 24 years minimum. We all know people who come from foreign lands and many are just as we are. They want a decent life and are prepared to work for it. But there's also a lot who are only interested in criminal activity and whilst I agree there are people born in this Country who are no better. But should we be importing even more. The system needs a drastic shake up. Now Rwanda has been scrapped what's Labours policy. We had heard nothing. | | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 09:37 - Aug 1 with 815 views | Europablue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:14 - Jul 31 by positivity |
you should know as well as anyone that islamophobia (or anti-semitism) isn't about being rude to a religion. if not, educate yourself
either way, stop appeasing racists |
Why is it always the people who tell you to educate yourself who are so ignorant (or at the very least so loose with terms)?
You can't lump in Islamophobia with anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is a hatred for the people, whereas Islamophobia is a dislike or hate for a set of beliefs.
Islamophobia is analogous to anti-Zionism.
As a general rule of thumb, something that is inherent (race, sex, nationality) should never be used as a basis for attacking someone, but ideas you choose to hold should be up for debate. | | | |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 10:06 - Aug 1 with 766 views | lowhouseblue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 23:24 - Jul 31 by Swansea_Blue |
“Just means being rude”.
Islamophobia is a hate crime, minimum sentence 6 months, but can be much more depending on the details of the crime. Seriously, try to learn about this and start questioning your sources. |
"islamophobia is a hate crime". not sure that's quite right. first there needs to be a criminal offence in the normal sense (ie a crime) - be that an assault, or harassment, etc. and the definition of the underlying criminal offence is no different to any other circumstance. if that criminal offence is motivated by or demonstrates a hostility based upon racial or religious hostility then that can be an aggravating factor and the underlying offence can then be prosecuted as a hate crime with implications for sentencing. the cps will need evidence that hostility has been demonstrated or was the motivation. (something can be recorded as a hate crime - as opposed to be prosecuted as one - just on the basis of the perception of the victim or another person, but a prosecution obviously requires real evidence as to motivation).
islamophobia (dislike of or prejudice against Islam or muslims, especially as a political force) in the absence of any underlying crime being committed is not necessarily a crime (or therefore a hate crime). it becomes a hate crime only it it motivates an underlying crime. in assessing if an underlying crime has occurred, eg in the context of online disputes, other protections such as the right to free speech would also be considered.
I don't know where your 'minimum sentence 6 months comes from'? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 10:10 - Aug 1 with 741 views | positivity |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 09:37 - Aug 1 by Europablue |
Why is it always the people who tell you to educate yourself who are so ignorant (or at the very least so loose with terms)?
You can't lump in Islamophobia with anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism is a hatred for the people, whereas Islamophobia is a dislike or hate for a set of beliefs.
Islamophobia is analogous to anti-Zionism.
As a general rule of thumb, something that is inherent (race, sex, nationality) should never be used as a basis for attacking someone, but ideas you choose to hold should be up for debate. |
that's nonsense, islamophobia is a hatred of muslims.
"Islamophobia is a fear, prejudice and hatred of Muslims that leads to provocation, hostility, and intolerance by means of threatening, harassment, abuse, incitement, and intimidation of Muslims and non-Muslims, both in the online and offline world." | |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 10:34 - Aug 1 with 674 views | SitfcB |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 21:28 - Jul 31 by BloomBlue |
Media makes it worse. For example I saw my knives being used in the 60 & 70s (and probably 80s) than now. Even at football matches regular usage of knives, ok maybe the stanley knife didn't go deep enough to kill but it was used frequently.
But media broadcast it immediately now.
Many years ago I was told a story from a old boy in a pub in Stowmarket. In the late 50s Stowmarket and Combs boys got into a big fight, one boy was hit with a brick and killed. This old boy made the point that story probably only made it as far as Ipswich, not the rest of the uk, even though someone had been killed. He continued (and I was talking to him in the 80s), if that happened today it would be on the BBC national news that evening.
Whereas NOW in 2024 if that happened, it would be on X etc within seconds with videos from all angles.
But his point still stands, technology and media gives instant news of things happening across the world now, which makes it seem worse. |
It’s because of social media and cameras in everyone’s pocket, because that’s where the news gets it from, mainly.
People keep saying ‘oh what is happening to [insert Town name here]’ like it’s a new thing but like you say, things have always happened but they just haven’t always been able to be posted on FB/Twitter within seconds of something happening. |  |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 10:53 - Aug 1 with 619 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 10:06 - Aug 1 by lowhouseblue |
"islamophobia is a hate crime". not sure that's quite right. first there needs to be a criminal offence in the normal sense (ie a crime) - be that an assault, or harassment, etc. and the definition of the underlying criminal offence is no different to any other circumstance. if that criminal offence is motivated by or demonstrates a hostility based upon racial or religious hostility then that can be an aggravating factor and the underlying offence can then be prosecuted as a hate crime with implications for sentencing. the cps will need evidence that hostility has been demonstrated or was the motivation. (something can be recorded as a hate crime - as opposed to be prosecuted as one - just on the basis of the perception of the victim or another person, but a prosecution obviously requires real evidence as to motivation).
islamophobia (dislike of or prejudice against Islam or muslims, especially as a political force) in the absence of any underlying crime being committed is not necessarily a crime (or therefore a hate crime). it becomes a hate crime only it it motivates an underlying crime. in assessing if an underlying crime has occurred, eg in the context of online disputes, other protections such as the right to free speech would also be considered.
I don't know where your 'minimum sentence 6 months comes from'? |
Yes, there obviously has to be an action, as you say. Not just hostility, it could be a prejudice perceived by the alleged victim. My point was that it's a bit dangerous to dismiss islamophobia as being rude. It can have serious consequences for the perpetrator is the recipient believes they are being targeted based on their religion. And I believe there are stricter sentencing guidelines for hate crimes, but I'm not sure where I got the 6 months from, as the sentencing fits the severity of the crime. But there can be an uplift in sentencing, as it's deemed to be additionally serious if it's a hate crime.
I think people need to be a bit careful if they try and dismiss (or just don't realise) the severity of some of these types of potential hate crimes.
People are of course free to think what they like in their own heads (I think!). |  |
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| Our country is really in the gutter on 13:15 - Aug 1 with 526 views | lowhouseblue |
| Our country is really in the gutter on 10:53 - Aug 1 by Swansea_Blue |
Yes, there obviously has to be an action, as you say. Not just hostility, it could be a prejudice perceived by the alleged victim. My point was that it's a bit dangerous to dismiss islamophobia as being rude. It can have serious consequences for the perpetrator is the recipient believes they are being targeted based on their religion. And I believe there are stricter sentencing guidelines for hate crimes, but I'm not sure where I got the 6 months from, as the sentencing fits the severity of the crime. But there can be an uplift in sentencing, as it's deemed to be additionally serious if it's a hate crime.
I think people need to be a bit careful if they try and dismiss (or just don't realise) the severity of some of these types of potential hate crimes.
People are of course free to think what they like in their own heads (I think!). |
yes the purpose of something being prosecuted as a hate crime rather than just the underlying offence is that it can lead to stiffer sentencing. but there is no minimum sentence.
"Not just hostility, it could be a prejudice perceived by the alleged victim." No, for prosecution it can't just be 'perceived' - the cps has to be satisfied that there is evidence that the victim has been targeted because of their race or religion.
hate crime is a term often thrown about without any precision about its meaning - particularly in connection with speech and the internet. in those circumstances the threshold for an underlying offence is high (eg because of protections to freedom of speech) and hate crimes (in that specific context) in any legally meaningful sense are not that common and the term is often misused. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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