| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment 15:12 - Feb 11 with 36901 views | Jimmy86 |
It would seem that calling a police officer stupid and white is acceptable in today's society..
Imagine the uproar if that particular slur had been used against someone of BAME origin.. think the sentence and certainly reaction to it would have been different |  | | |  |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 20:21 - Feb 12 with 2227 views | DJR |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 16:33 - Feb 12 by itfcjoe |
He says at the time in the station 'you don't need to be racist with me' and that she is 'under arrest for racially aggravated public order' so I don't understand the whole point about how it wasn't raised for some time and added to statement later part of it. |
I came across this analysis of the case which suggest that the change in the statement was designed to persuade the CPS to bring charges but at the same time was fatal to the success of the case because of the delay because it indicated the constable felt no alarm or distress at the time.
"It wasn't enough for the jury to convict Ms Kerr on the basis that they were sure she intended to harm Constable Lovell with her words "stupid and white".
The jury needed to be sure that the words caused him "harassment, alarm or distress".
The defence pointed out that Constable Lovell didn't say how he felt after being called "stupid and white" in his first statement, which he wrote shortly after the incident on January 30, 2023.
He made first official mention of it in a second statement made nearly 11 months after the incident.
The second statement came after the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) initially declined to charge Ms Kerr, saying the threshold of "harassment, alarm or distress" hadn't been met.
The police then launched an appeal, before the CPS requested more evidence of "harassment, alarm or distress".
In the second statement, Constable Lovell said the words "stupid and white" made him feel "upset", "belittled" and "shocked", adding that he felt that "they went too far and I took great offence to them".
Under cross-examination Police Constable Stephen Lovell agreed he was "determined" to pursue the matter in court.
Ms Forbes (the prosecutor) said it was a deliberate attempt to secure a criminal charge.
Ms Forbes: "The CPS identified there was no evidence of harassment, alarm or distress caused, and you knew that was the obstacle."
Constable Lovell: "No."
Ms Forbes: "I am going to suggest that you are claiming to have experienced this impact purely to get a criminal charge across the line."
Constable Lovell: "No." [Post edited 12 Feb 20:25]
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| Insecure little men..... on 21:10 - Feb 12 with 2150 views | StokieBlue |
| Insecure little men..... on 17:52 - Feb 12 by Bloots |
...desperately trying to win arguments with other insecure little men. |
Do you mean insecure little men who spend their time derailing threads and not contributing anything to the actual debate or hammer the down vote button like a hamster on acid?
Those types of insecure little men?
SB |  | | |
| Insecure little men..... on 21:23 - Feb 12 with 2093 views | Bigalhunter |
| Insecure little men..... on 21:10 - Feb 12 by StokieBlue |
Do you mean insecure little men who spend their time derailing threads and not contributing anything to the actual debate or hammer the down vote button like a hamster on acid?
Those types of insecure little men?
SB |
It was an odd comment, but maybe they are feeling a little bit ‘little’ and ‘insecure’
Backing singers expected to step up to the microphone whilst the lead singer takes an unplanned break, mid-tour.
Would cause a manifestation of self doubt in many a boy band, I imagine. |  |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 21:38 - Feb 12 with 2041 views | SWBlue22 |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 17:50 - Feb 12 by waveneyblue |
Just popped back and see it's still going strong 13 pages in. Has anybody given Herbivore an answer he likes yet ? |
Gave up few pages back. You won't get far with the TWTD illuminati. They are always right. |  | | |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 22:29 - Feb 12 with 1948 views | reusersfreekicks |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 11:30 - Feb 12 by itfcjoe |
It's incredibly difficult - I was listening to an MP the other week [Darren Jones] who just sounded like your bog standard toff MP, silver spoon......but you look at his back story and it's growing up in poverty in a massively deprived area in Bristol, first member of family to go to university, food bank equivalent use.
But now he's a secretary to the treasury, married to a tech entrepreneur, a vegan due to their views on carbon emission in the meat industry etc and clearly no longer in any real way working class.....so how do you square that.
I've got a friend from school who grew up in a single Dad household, who with an assisted place got to school, is now doing really well in consultancy but is having to move firms because there are too many men on their management team so is no room for him to take the next step - and he has to spend lots of time leading the companies diversity team but his (former?) class is not something that is even considered. When Oxford/Cambridge take more kids from state schools - and then the BBC says it wants to diversify so has less Oxbridge graduates at what point to they cross over from the state school kid who has been positively discriminated for, to the Oxbridge grad who is negatively discriminated against?
I'm more in the equality of opportunity camp, but realise that we are so away from that and without some serious investment in the younger years it isn't going to happen than the equality of outcome camp.....but as a parent of 2 white boys who will now be middle class I worry for their future as I see kids of my parents friends in their early 20s having to head off to places like the US because they have better options |
Holy sh1t.
This is a weird take |  | | |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 22:42 - Feb 12 with 1909 views | lowhouseblue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 11:42 - Feb 12 by Herbivore |
Positive discrimination is illegal in the UK. My professional sector has circa 30% non-white staff but less than half that percentage in leadership roles, and lower still in the most senior leadership roles. If positive discrimination was a thing, that wouldn't be the case. |
you realise that 30% is huge over representation relative to the uk population? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 22:57 - Feb 12 with 1858 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 22:42 - Feb 12 by lowhouseblue |
you realise that 30% is huge over representation relative to the uk population? |
I’m sure he does, but that’s not how EDI stats are considered. You normalise them for your sector/organisation and then for different roles and grades. Otherwise it’s utterly meaningless. |  |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 23:02 - Feb 12 with 1842 views | positivity |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 21:38 - Feb 12 by SWBlue22 |
Gave up few pages back. You won't get far with the TWTD illuminati. They are always right. |
"illuminati"?
[Post edited 12 Feb 23:15]
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 23:10 - Feb 12 with 1788 views | lowhouseblue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 22:57 - Feb 12 by Swansea_Blue |
I’m sure he does, but that’s not how EDI stats are considered. You normalise them for your sector/organisation and then for different roles and grades. Otherwise it’s utterly meaningless. |
i do lots of this. yes sectors vary, but you still need to be able to explain why it varies from the general population. location, age group etc can all be controlled. there must be reasons why the mix in a sector or profession varies from the population and it's good to know why. i had the impression that herbivore was referring to a whole profession - so age and location are going to be less critical.
[Post edited 12 Feb 23:22]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 23:26 - Feb 12 with 1703 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 23:10 - Feb 12 by lowhouseblue |
i do lots of this. yes sectors vary, but you still need to be able to explain why it varies from the general population. location, age group etc can all be controlled. there must be reasons why the mix in a sector or profession varies from the population and it's good to know why. i had the impression that herbivore was referring to a whole profession - so age and location are going to be less critical.
[Post edited 12 Feb 23:22]
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In the context of what Herbs was talking about, the general population is meaningless. The whole point of looking with an organisation is to establish if people with protected characteristics are getting the opportunities to advance. I’ve never once brought the general population into any EDI reports I’ve prepared. But maybe we’re talking at cross purposes. | |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 23:50 - Feb 12 with 1654 views | Herbivore |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 21:38 - Feb 12 by SWBlue22 |
Gave up few pages back. You won't get far with the TWTD illuminati. They are always right. |
Well, you won't get far if you don't engage that's for sure. |  |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 23:51 - Feb 12 with 1649 views | Herbivore |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 22:42 - Feb 12 by lowhouseblue |
you realise that 30% is huge over representation relative to the uk population? |
*Facepalm* | |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 00:27 - Feb 13 with 1582 views | Kievthegreat |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 16:33 - Feb 12 by itfcjoe |
He says at the time in the station 'you don't need to be racist with me' and that she is 'under arrest for racially aggravated public order' so I don't understand the whole point about how it wasn't raised for some time and added to statement later part of it. |
Because she wasn't charged for racially aggravated public order offence (which is a low level offense with only a fine at a magistrate's court). She was charged with racially aggravated harassment. That requires the harassment be intentional, to cause "distress" or "alarm" and be racially aggravated.
The issue is he doesn't mention any impact caused by her words. He only adds 11 months later after CPS aren't willing to pursue charges further that the statement changed to say that he was “shocked, upset, and (left) me feeling humiliated”. That's what the defence counsel focus on. Maybe he truly was upset and humiliated but just didn't feel the need to say it at the time. However adding it later on, where it potentially could help secure a more significant charge, looks dodgy.
Funny thing is, if she was charged for the original public order, I reckon a magistrate would have been far more inclined to agree she was guilty. Even if they only said low level of harm and/or culpability. However they pushed for a significantly higher charge, with a commensurately higher bar. |  | | |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 06:46 - Feb 13 with 1434 views | Benters |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 18:08 - Feb 12 by NewcyBlue |
jeez you’re repetitively dull |
That’s rich coming from you 😽👐 |  |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 06:50 - Feb 13 with 1427 views | NewcyBlue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 06:46 - Feb 13 by Benters |
That’s rich coming from you 😽👐 |
😘 thanks sweetcheeks |  |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 07:19 - Feb 13 with 1391 views | itfcjoe |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 00:27 - Feb 13 by Kievthegreat |
Because she wasn't charged for racially aggravated public order offence (which is a low level offense with only a fine at a magistrate's court). She was charged with racially aggravated harassment. That requires the harassment be intentional, to cause "distress" or "alarm" and be racially aggravated.
The issue is he doesn't mention any impact caused by her words. He only adds 11 months later after CPS aren't willing to pursue charges further that the statement changed to say that he was “shocked, upset, and (left) me feeling humiliated”. That's what the defence counsel focus on. Maybe he truly was upset and humiliated but just didn't feel the need to say it at the time. However adding it later on, where it potentially could help secure a more significant charge, looks dodgy.
Funny thing is, if she was charged for the original public order, I reckon a magistrate would have been far more inclined to agree she was guilty. Even if they only said low level of harm and/or culpability. However they pushed for a significantly higher charge, with a commensurately higher bar. |
Makes sense - cheers. Hadn’t appreciated they were different offences |  |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 07:47 - Feb 13 with 1350 views | lowhouseblue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 23:26 - Feb 12 by Swansea_Blue |
In the context of what Herbs was talking about, the general population is meaningless. The whole point of looking with an organisation is to establish if people with protected characteristics are getting the opportunities to advance. I’ve never once brought the general population into any EDI reports I’ve prepared. But maybe we’re talking at cross purposes. |
but surely you need to know why your workforce is unrepresentative. why are you attracting some groups and not others? if you had a big underrepresentation of non-whites relative to society more generally would you not be asking that question? it doesn't mean you don't have good answers. when i look at such data i start constructing benchmarks based on national numbers, then controlling for age, location, and other relevant stuff. if a profession is hugely unrepresentative of the population there must be a reason why. surely? it's an odd thing not to care about. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 07:51 - Feb 13 with 1327 views | lowhouseblue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 23:51 - Feb 12 by Herbivore |
*Facepalm* |
so why is the profession you refer to so hugely unrepresentative of society? it isn't necessarily bad in any way, but surely you must know why? part of the role of edi processes to understand these things. and *facepalm* may only be showing your limitations rather than anyone else's. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 08:34 - Feb 13 with 1245 views | Herbivore |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 07:51 - Feb 13 by lowhouseblue |
so why is the profession you refer to so hugely unrepresentative of society? it isn't necessarily bad in any way, but surely you must know why? part of the role of edi processes to understand these things. and *facepalm* may only be showing your limitations rather than anyone else's. |
I haven't said it's underrepresentative or society, I've said people of colour are underrepresented in leadership roles within the profession in comparison to their representation within the profession overall. I'm talking within a particular field, I don't know why you're bringing society at large into it. It's a professional discipline, Joe Public can't apply for leadership roles within it so other than new entrants it is more or less a closed system; those progressing into leadership roles are already within the professional workforce. [Post edited 13 Feb 9:01]
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 09:19 - Feb 13 with 1179 views | lowhouseblue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 08:34 - Feb 13 by Herbivore |
I haven't said it's underrepresentative or society, I've said people of colour are underrepresented in leadership roles within the profession in comparison to their representation within the profession overall. I'm talking within a particular field, I don't know why you're bringing society at large into it. It's a professional discipline, Joe Public can't apply for leadership roles within it so other than new entrants it is more or less a closed system; those progressing into leadership roles are already within the professional workforce. [Post edited 13 Feb 9:01]
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you said that 30% of staff were non-white. that is unrepresentative of society by a factor of approx two. it’s not a bad thing as long as you know why? why is the overall staff mix so unrepresentative? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 09:31 - Feb 13 with 1122 views | Herbivore |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 09:19 - Feb 13 by lowhouseblue |
you said that 30% of staff were non-white. that is unrepresentative of society by a factor of approx two. it’s not a bad thing as long as you know why? why is the overall staff mix so unrepresentative? |
You seem to want to be having a different argument to the one I'm making. I am interested in the underrepresentation of people of colour in leadership roles in my profession versus their representation in the wider professional workforce, not a comparison between the profession and society more widely. | |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 09:38 - Feb 13 with 1102 views | lowhouseblue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 09:31 - Feb 13 by Herbivore |
You seem to want to be having a different argument to the one I'm making. I am interested in the underrepresentation of people of colour in leadership roles in my profession versus their representation in the wider professional workforce, not a comparison between the profession and society more widely. |
you posted some data and i asked you a question about it. that’s how conversations work. I asked if you were aware that 30% of staff being non-white is hugely disproportionate to the population. It’s a really basic question that anyone interested in edi should have an answer to. There’s no implication that it’s bad it just needs to be explained. but you don’t want to give an answer? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 09:41 - Feb 13 with 1080 views | Herbivore |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 09:38 - Feb 13 by lowhouseblue |
you posted some data and i asked you a question about it. that’s how conversations work. I asked if you were aware that 30% of staff being non-white is hugely disproportionate to the population. It’s a really basic question that anyone interested in edi should have an answer to. There’s no implication that it’s bad it just needs to be explained. but you don’t want to give an answer? |
Because it's entirely irrelevant to the point I was making. If you want to engage with me on the point I was making then fine, but otherwise I think we're done. | |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 10:09 - Feb 13 with 998 views | lowhouseblue |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 09:41 - Feb 13 by Herbivore |
Because it's entirely irrelevant to the point I was making. If you want to engage with me on the point I was making then fine, but otherwise I think we're done. |
but you posted the data and when questioned you can’t explain it. you seem not to think it matters. Perhaps the huge over-representation at entry level helps explain the differential progression. Perhaps something is happening with recruitment which explains both the mismatch to the general population and the fact that some groups on average don’t seem to be promoted as much as others. in searching for an explanation it is natural to look at other things that, very initially, seem odd. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 10:20 - Feb 13 with 965 views | Herbivore |
| Sam Kerr found not guilty of racial aggravated harassment on 10:09 - Feb 13 by lowhouseblue |
but you posted the data and when questioned you can’t explain it. you seem not to think it matters. Perhaps the huge over-representation at entry level helps explain the differential progression. Perhaps something is happening with recruitment which explains both the mismatch to the general population and the fact that some groups on average don’t seem to be promoted as much as others. in searching for an explanation it is natural to look at other things that, very initially, seem odd. |
Or perhaps - as I've mentioned the research shows - people of colour face discrimination and barriers to progression within the workforce. | |
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