| Is Lent the new Gammon cause celebre? 18:44 - Mar 14 with 8177 views | Zx1988 |
First we had the collective crushing of grapes at the fact that Charles had celebrated Iftar with Muslims on Ash Wednesday, of all days:
https://thecatholicherald.com/why-does-king-charles-choose-to-highlight-ramadan-
And now it seems to be the go-to response to the usual racists commenting on Town's inclusive social media strategy:
Maybe they could give up being racist c0ckw0mbles for Lent? |  |
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| Is Lent the new Gammon cause celebre? on 22:51 - Mar 14 with 1697 views | Guthrum |
Is that Rudolf Hess in Derek the commenter's avatar?? |  |
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| Is Lent the new Gammon cause celebre? on 22:53 - Mar 14 with 1678 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Is Lent the new Gammon cause celebre? on 22:51 - Mar 14 by Guthrum |
Is that Rudolf Hess in Derek the commenter's avatar?? |
Certainly looks like it. |  |
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| Is Lent the new Gammon cause celebre? on 22:56 - Mar 14 with 1655 views | Guthrum |
| Is Lent the new Gammon cause celebre? on 20:11 - Mar 14 by DJR |
I can't quite work out whether the photo on the tweet shows Mussolini or a prominent member of the Nazi Party. On balance, I think it is Mussolini because of the jaw.
The irony of those criticising the decline of the influence of Christianity in our country is that the vast majority don't go to church.
And surely the Catholic Herald must know that Prince Charles is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, which does not suggest indifference to Christianity on his part?
He has, however, said he wants to support all faiths in this country, which in my view can't be a bad thing. [Post edited 14 Mar 20:39]
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Hadn't seen your post, but pretty sure that's Rudolf Hess. | |
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| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:17 - Mar 14 with 1614 views | StokieBlue |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 21:58 - Mar 14 by PhilTWTD |
It's not a term which relates to race but to faces turned red with indignant anger. |
It was first used by Dickens in 1839 in Nicholas Nickleby:
"’The meaning of that term – gammon,’ said Mr Gregsbury, ‘is unknown to me. If it means that I grow a little too fervid, or perhaps even hyperbolical, in extolling my native land, I admit the full justice of the remark. I AM proud of this free and happy country. My form dilates, my eye glistens, my breast heaves, my heart swells, my bosom burns, when I call to mind her greatness and her glory.”
Gregsbury is an MP prone to justifying the various misdemeanours and hypocrisies complained about by his constituents on the grounds that he is all too often carried away by patriotic sentiment. “I clasp my hands, and turning my eyes to the broad expanse above my head, exclaim, ‘Thank Heaven, I am a Briton!’” .
One could argue it's been hijacked but the meaning is still fairly similar. I guess the real debate here is the evolution of language and how people interpret that.
SB |  | | |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:19 - Mar 14 with 1594 views | redrickstuhaart |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:17 - Mar 14 by StokieBlue |
It was first used by Dickens in 1839 in Nicholas Nickleby:
"’The meaning of that term – gammon,’ said Mr Gregsbury, ‘is unknown to me. If it means that I grow a little too fervid, or perhaps even hyperbolical, in extolling my native land, I admit the full justice of the remark. I AM proud of this free and happy country. My form dilates, my eye glistens, my breast heaves, my heart swells, my bosom burns, when I call to mind her greatness and her glory.”
Gregsbury is an MP prone to justifying the various misdemeanours and hypocrisies complained about by his constituents on the grounds that he is all too often carried away by patriotic sentiment. “I clasp my hands, and turning my eyes to the broad expanse above my head, exclaim, ‘Thank Heaven, I am a Briton!’” .
One could argue it's been hijacked but the meaning is still fairly similar. I guess the real debate here is the evolution of language and how people interpret that.
SB |
I think you have to apply the old standby of comparing it to an equivalent directed at a different ethnicity. And ask whether that would be okay.
Of course the dynamics are different because fo the power / influence differentials between white folks and others in the UK, but we just undermine our own principles and arguments if we are too relaxed about things we would jump up and down about were they revered. | | | |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:24 - Mar 14 with 1581 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 19:39 - Mar 14 by redrickstuhaart |
Its clearly a reference to a stereotypical white person of a certain age and mindset.
Use the reverse -check and ask yourself whether referring to another race by reference tiothe colour of their face when angry would be okay.
More to the point- even if you wrongly think its not racist, you are giving the people you want to criticise an absolute open goal to claim double standards and hypocrisy. Be better than them. |
Well, Black and Asian people sometimes use the word "Coconut" as a term of offence towards other people of their racial group who they perceive as willing to deny their racial group in order to gain favour with White people.
It's deliberately offensive, and would be taken as such. And it references race. But is it racist for one British Indian heritage person to say it to another?
No. Of course it isn't.
But it's not appropriate for me, as a White person, to use it to insult a non-White person.
So, by the same token, if one White person calls another White person a "Gammon" then it's not racist, but is deliberately offensive.
I would also argue that if a Non-White person used the word to describe a White person then it would probably be considered a racial slur by most juries. | | | |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:43 - Mar 14 with 1551 views | redrickstuhaart |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:24 - Mar 14 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Well, Black and Asian people sometimes use the word "Coconut" as a term of offence towards other people of their racial group who they perceive as willing to deny their racial group in order to gain favour with White people.
It's deliberately offensive, and would be taken as such. And it references race. But is it racist for one British Indian heritage person to say it to another?
No. Of course it isn't.
But it's not appropriate for me, as a White person, to use it to insult a non-White person.
So, by the same token, if one White person calls another White person a "Gammon" then it's not racist, but is deliberately offensive.
I would also argue that if a Non-White person used the word to describe a White person then it would probably be considered a racial slur by most juries. |
Personally, I think that term is racist. By definition. It is criticising someone on the grounds that they are acting like a white person. Simultaneously stereotyping all white people AND indicating there is somethign wrong with "whiteness".
Again, the dynamics complicate things in the UK because of the power imbalance. But we make a horrible trap and precedent by allowing double standards, | | | |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 00:02 - Mar 15 with 1536 views | Swansea_Blue |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:24 - Mar 14 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Well, Black and Asian people sometimes use the word "Coconut" as a term of offence towards other people of their racial group who they perceive as willing to deny their racial group in order to gain favour with White people.
It's deliberately offensive, and would be taken as such. And it references race. But is it racist for one British Indian heritage person to say it to another?
No. Of course it isn't.
But it's not appropriate for me, as a White person, to use it to insult a non-White person.
So, by the same token, if one White person calls another White person a "Gammon" then it's not racist, but is deliberately offensive.
I would also argue that if a Non-White person used the word to describe a White person then it would probably be considered a racial slur by most juries. |
“but is deliberately offensive”.
That’s all there is to it. It’s an insult, nothing more. People are over-analysing it far too much. We could just call them arseholes instead and be done with it. | |
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| I thought it was agreed that.... on 00:09 - Mar 15 with 1528 views | positivity |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 00:02 - Mar 15 by Swansea_Blue |
“but is deliberately offensive”.
That’s all there is to it. It’s an insult, nothing more. People are over-analysing it far too much. We could just call them arseholes instead and be done with it. |
can we go for over-sensitive snowflake a-holes instead? | |
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| I thought it was agreed that.... on 00:49 - Mar 15 with 1459 views | StNeotsBlue |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 00:02 - Mar 15 by Swansea_Blue |
“but is deliberately offensive”.
That’s all there is to it. It’s an insult, nothing more. People are over-analysing it far too much. We could just call them arseholes instead and be done with it. |
Anyone who is openly racist or homophobic deserves to be called a tw@t.
Although on reflection that may set off all the lesbians. |  | | |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 09:00 - Mar 15 with 1315 views | Axeldalai_lama |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:19 - Mar 14 by redrickstuhaart |
I think you have to apply the old standby of comparing it to an equivalent directed at a different ethnicity. And ask whether that would be okay.
Of course the dynamics are different because fo the power / influence differentials between white folks and others in the UK, but we just undermine our own principles and arguments if we are too relaxed about things we would jump up and down about were they revered. |
I don't think that's the comparison, or at least not what I'd do. It is not being directed 'at' an ethnicity it is being directed at a certain sub section of a society or culture in general. So if I knew different cultures as well as I knew British then I could compare it, but I don't, but hypothetically I imagine there are many similar insults as this that I wouldn't deem racist and on need of cancelling any more than any other insult.
I suppose 'bogan' in Australia and something like 'redneck' in America might be similar and I don't deem those specifically racist and cancelled as insults from what I know about them. They are describing a particular type of a society who are deemed a certain way, that happen to be broadly mainly one race.
Whether any of this is helpful is another matter, but are any insults helpful? |  | | |
| Is Lent the new Gammon cause celebre? on 13:08 - Mar 15 with 1183 views | tcblue |
I've started using "the G word" instead.
"What are we having for dinner, G word and chips?" | | | |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 13:23 - Mar 15 with 1155 views | BlueBoots |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 21:58 - Mar 14 by PhilTWTD |
It's not a term which relates to race but to faces turned red with indignant anger. |
Yeah...this; and you'd think if they got less angry about the changes to modern society that upset them so much, it would lower their blood pressure and the term would no longer apply to them  |  |
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| Not defending anyone..... on 13:23 - Mar 15 with 1156 views | Kievthegreat |
| Not defending anyone..... on 19:45 - Mar 14 by Bloots |
....and unless you are reading imaginary text then I don't know why you think I am.
But making a racist comment against racists, waters down your argument somewhat.
But then an awful lot of racists argue that their comments aren't racist. |
Defending someone using a Rudolf Hess avatar seems like a weird hill to die on... |  | | |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 13:25 - Mar 15 with 1150 views | J2BLUE |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:24 - Mar 14 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Well, Black and Asian people sometimes use the word "Coconut" as a term of offence towards other people of their racial group who they perceive as willing to deny their racial group in order to gain favour with White people.
It's deliberately offensive, and would be taken as such. And it references race. But is it racist for one British Indian heritage person to say it to another?
No. Of course it isn't.
But it's not appropriate for me, as a White person, to use it to insult a non-White person.
So, by the same token, if one White person calls another White person a "Gammon" then it's not racist, but is deliberately offensive.
I would also argue that if a Non-White person used the word to describe a White person then it would probably be considered a racial slur by most juries. |
The world has gone insane.
Typically 'gammons' tend to be on the right of political opinion who are mostly anti 'woke' and anti 'snowflake' types.
This whole thing is basically my team versus your team and people making an issue of it because it sticks it to the liberal lefties.
Suggesting it's racist is absurd. |  |
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| I thought it was agreed that.... on 14:49 - Mar 15 with 1073 views | redrickstuhaart |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 13:25 - Mar 15 by J2BLUE |
The world has gone insane.
Typically 'gammons' tend to be on the right of political opinion who are mostly anti 'woke' and anti 'snowflake' types.
This whole thing is basically my team versus your team and people making an issue of it because it sticks it to the liberal lefties.
Suggesting it's racist is absurd. |
"Origin: The term "gammon" refers to the color of a white person's flushed face, which is said to resemble the color of the cured pork known as gammon." | | | |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 15:30 - Mar 15 with 1021 views | Kropotkin123 |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 23:43 - Mar 14 by redrickstuhaart |
Personally, I think that term is racist. By definition. It is criticising someone on the grounds that they are acting like a white person. Simultaneously stereotyping all white people AND indicating there is somethign wrong with "whiteness".
Again, the dynamics complicate things in the UK because of the power imbalance. But we make a horrible trap and precedent by allowing double standards, |
I'm undecided whether it is racist or not. Regardless, I don't use the term because I think it is stupid.
Simultaneously stereotyping all white people AND indicating there is somethign wrong with "whiteness".
This is demonstrably not true. A sub-section of a white society is stereotyping another sub-section of the same white society. This doesn't mean the sub-section using the slur believes it is an insult to themselves and their own "whiteness" (assume you mean white culture).
See also Indians calling other Indian's coconut or Asian's calling other Asian's banana, as a insult to them losing the their culture to white culture. They don't suddenly think they are insulting their own race, or diminishing their own racial culture.
I personally see my own white culture steeped in fighting racists. When someone says "gammon", I imagine the victim's are the same people giving Nazi salutes at war memorials, which is nothing to do with my white culture. |  |
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| You called them... on 15:39 - Mar 15 with 1004 views | iamatractorboy |
| You called them... on 19:38 - Mar 14 by Bloots |
..."white males".
Pretty sure that's a racial characteristic. |
Straight white male here. I couldn't give a flying eff about the use of the term 'gammon'. | | | |
| You called them... on 16:10 - Mar 15 with 962 views | Kropotkin123 |
| You called them... on 15:39 - Mar 15 by iamatractorboy |
Straight white male here. I couldn't give a flying eff about the use of the term 'gammon'. |
I care about it for different reasons than racist or not racist.
By using the word gammon the original poster lost control of the discourse. The subsequent conversation has been about the word gammon and racism. Not the stupidity of calling out IT social media for not mentioning lent. | |
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| Not defending anyone..... on 16:17 - Mar 15 with 933 views | iamatractorboy |
| Not defending anyone..... on 13:23 - Mar 15 by Kievthegreat |
Defending someone using a Rudolf Hess avatar seems like a weird hill to die on... |
I was wondering about that. Someone is using a literal Nazi as an avatar. On this site. Incredible.
Edit: not on this site, obviously. But you know what I mean. [Post edited 15 Mar 16:18]
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| You called them... on 16:23 - Mar 15 with 916 views | Benters |
| You called them... on 15:39 - Mar 15 by iamatractorboy |
Straight white male here. I couldn't give a flying eff about the use of the term 'gammon'. |
I’m white as well,well I’m a bit brown as I’m always outside and probably don’t wash as much as I should.
I love a bit of Gammon and pineapple.
Shoot me. |  |
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| I thought it was agreed that.... on 17:02 - Mar 15 with 894 views | blueasfook |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 21:17 - Mar 14 by PhilTWTD |
Really not. Whole thread is ridiculous. |
Is there any left wing insults you won't defend? I doubt it. |  |
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| I thought it was agreed that.... on 17:14 - Mar 15 with 858 views | Benters |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 17:02 - Mar 15 by blueasfook |
Is there any left wing insults you won't defend? I doubt it. |
‘Gets the popcorn out’ 😂 | |
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| I thought it was agreed that.... on 17:24 - Mar 15 with 847 views | lowhouseblue |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 18:53 - Mar 14 by Bloots |
....the term "gammon" was racist? |
while the term 'gammon' is undoubtedly discriminatory stereotyping, i wouldn't want to defend someone who uses a photo of rudolph hess on his twitter profile. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| I thought it was agreed that.... on 18:31 - Mar 15 with 768 views | NeedhamChris |
| I thought it was agreed that.... on 17:24 - Mar 15 by lowhouseblue |
while the term 'gammon' is undoubtedly discriminatory stereotyping, i wouldn't want to defend someone who uses a photo of rudolph hess on his twitter profile. |
I think in general people are defending the principle of the first point you make, not specifically that poster.
I agree with you, but seemingly it's not as beyond doubt as you would think. | |
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