| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol 15:41 - Jun 7 with 28324 views | Mullet |
Wanton act of destruction? Political statement? Bad PR?
I'm not sure this is quite the same as when they pulled down statues of Saddam in Iraq for example. Strikes me as simply ammo for the critics and little else. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:45 - Jun 7 with 2870 views | Shawsey |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 15:53 - Jun 7 by StokieBlue |
I understand why they did this and I don't blame them.
However erasing these things won't highlight what has happened in the past, if anything it's removing a reminder of what happened in the past and why it shouldn't happen again. Leaving the statue in place but having a placard there explaining to everyone who sees it what he did and the lives it destroyed is a more powerful message than removing the statue in my opinion.
SB |
I will just put this out there. If say a group of 5 people had torn that statue down 3 weeks ago, would it have been seen as ok ? We understand why, or would they have been arrested for vandalism ? Not saying the statue should be there, just not sure how this helps with the message. |  | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:47 - Jun 7 with 2867 views | gordon |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:43 - Jun 7 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Criminal....weigh it in don't throw it in the river. |
Round my way the scrap metal lads would've had that away before it hit the ground. |  | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:48 - Jun 7 with 2853 views | Mullet |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:44 - Jun 7 by JakeITFC |
I’m afraid it’s fairly black and white for me - you can’t celebrate (and I think having a statue in a prominent part of the city is celebration) people who directly benefited from the slave trade. It is literally devaluing the lives of the people who suffered and died.
There is no balance to be had with the good things he did. |
I'm not suggesting there is. Walking past it isn't a celebration.
However, is this the method to achieve that? There's been a discussion about people like Colston for years in Bristol, I remember reading about trying to force name changes of various institutions etc. I wonder if democracy would be a more positive change.
You'd think a more community based approach would be a stronger message and not entrench people into celebrating him out of a sense of tradition/conservatism. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:50 - Jun 7 with 2845 views | The_Major |
As an aside, and I never knew this, the cluster of roads in Ipswich to the north of Handford Road - Emlen Street, Stevenson Road, Wilberforce Street, Benezet Street etc. were all named after leading figures in the movement for abolition of slavery. |  | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:52 - Jun 7 with 2828 views | BlueBadger |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:13 - Jun 7 by gordon |
'History' isn't erased or eradicated because a statue comes down.
It's important that we remember Hitler, for example, but that wouldn't be considered a sound argument for having a statue of Hitler in the centre of Bristol. |
What they did in the Portuguese city of Lagos was to turn the old slave market into a museum, displaying slavery in all it's ugliness. They also use it as a fovcal point for all sorts of community projects. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:55 - Jun 7 with 2814 views | Mullet |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:50 - Jun 7 by The_Major |
As an aside, and I never knew this, the cluster of roads in Ipswich to the north of Handford Road - Emlen Street, Stevenson Road, Wilberforce Street, Benezet Street etc. were all named after leading figures in the movement for abolition of slavery. |
You can tell that from the names I guess!
When a memorial to George Floyd was spray painted in Manchester this weekend I was amazed how many supposed Mancs didn't know there's a statue of Abraham Lincoln in the city centre. And the reason? According to the statue it's a symbol of solidarity with the Mancunians support for abolition
https://manchesterhistory.net/manchester/statues/lincoln.html | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:55 - Jun 7 with 2810 views | gordon |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:48 - Jun 7 by Mullet |
I'm not suggesting there is. Walking past it isn't a celebration.
However, is this the method to achieve that? There's been a discussion about people like Colston for years in Bristol, I remember reading about trying to force name changes of various institutions etc. I wonder if democracy would be a more positive change.
You'd think a more community based approach would be a stronger message and not entrench people into celebrating him out of a sense of tradition/conservatism. |
The whole point of a statue is to celebrate the life and achievements of someone, isn't it?
If I'm wrong, I'll set up the TWTD crowdfunder to get a plinth erected with Keano and Hurst statues on it so we can all reflect and commemorate their awfulness and the way they destroyed our club. | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:58 - Jun 7 with 2793 views | JakeITFC |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:48 - Jun 7 by Mullet |
I'm not suggesting there is. Walking past it isn't a celebration.
However, is this the method to achieve that? There's been a discussion about people like Colston for years in Bristol, I remember reading about trying to force name changes of various institutions etc. I wonder if democracy would be a more positive change.
You'd think a more community based approach would be a stronger message and not entrench people into celebrating him out of a sense of tradition/conservatism. |
Democracy leaves us in a place that we still have statues of people involved in the slave trade still standing in 2020.
Democracy isn’t working. |  | | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:59 - Jun 7 with 2793 views | Mullet |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:55 - Jun 7 by gordon |
The whole point of a statue is to celebrate the life and achievements of someone, isn't it?
If I'm wrong, I'll set up the TWTD crowdfunder to get a plinth erected with Keano and Hurst statues on it so we can all reflect and commemorate their awfulness and the way they destroyed our club. |
Sure, but the people who did that are long dead too you'd think. The removal now and in this manner is really what I was raising as a discussion point.
Given the outrage at damage in London to monuments, does this not strengthen those who would seek to protect Colston now too? | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:03 - Jun 7 with 2777 views | Moriarty |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 15:55 - Jun 7 by factual_blue |
Our history though is littered with examples we've 'forgotten' or - to put it another way 'ignored'. The English Armada of 1589, the Croke Park massacre.
And of course, so many of our lauded battles are examples of instances of either romanticised instances of not losing (Waterloo) or obvious defeats (Arnhem). In Anthony Beevor's book on Arnhem he quotes a Guards officer's comment that 'we weren't taught to kill and win, we were taught how to die'. |
Indeed. Other examples include the genocide/laissez fair of the British when 1million Irish died during the famine, the murder of civilians including children by the British Army during the 1916 rising and before and after that. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:12 - Jun 7 with 2745 views | gordon |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:59 - Jun 7 by Mullet |
Sure, but the people who did that are long dead too you'd think. The removal now and in this manner is really what I was raising as a discussion point.
Given the outrage at damage in London to monuments, does this not strengthen those who would seek to protect Colston now too? |
Not sure I follow. Colston is in the harbour now, it'd be a brave council that paid to have pulled out and put back on his plinth. | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:29 - Jun 7 with 2703 views | Plums |
It’s definitely a debate the country needs to have. My knee-jerk reaction is that these monuments to slavery and those engaged in empire building massacres should be removed and installed in museums where the stories can be told. Berlin has its Topographies of Terror, Bristol could have its Street of Shame or similar. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:38 - Jun 7 with 2681 views | Mullet |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:12 - Jun 7 by gordon |
Not sure I follow. Colston is in the harbour now, it'd be a brave council that paid to have pulled out and put back on his plinth. |
I agree, a near suicidal one too although I bet there is a petition by breakfast along those lines.
My point was that having the statue there now and equating it to people alive now celebrating Colston by not tearing it down before might not be fair. It's clear he was a man of great stature in Bristol in his day and in his time what he did was acceptable you'd presume, that doesn't mean it's endorsed now by people.
Ironically it might see him get sympathy because of the way in which this was done/sensationalised etc.
I did quite enjoy this tweet from our former loanee
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:47 - Jun 7 with 2668 views | GlasgowBlue |
As John Snow once said, I've never seen so many white people in one place. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:49 - Jun 7 with 2657 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:37 - Jun 7 by footers |
That's a very stupid argument, but you knew that already. It's sophisticated trolling but not sure it's worth the considerable time you spend on it. |
What sort of idiot does that make you? |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:50 - Jun 7 with 2650 views | footers |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:47 - Jun 7 by GlasgowBlue |
As John Snow once said, I've never seen so many white people in one place. |
What's your point here, gibbers? Care to explain to the class? |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:51 - Jun 7 with 2648 views | footers |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:49 - Jun 7 by ElephantintheRoom |
What sort of idiot does that make you? |
A happy one :) | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:51 - Jun 7 with 2650 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:48 - Jun 7 by Mullet |
I'm not suggesting there is. Walking past it isn't a celebration.
However, is this the method to achieve that? There's been a discussion about people like Colston for years in Bristol, I remember reading about trying to force name changes of various institutions etc. I wonder if democracy would be a more positive change.
You'd think a more community based approach would be a stronger message and not entrench people into celebrating him out of a sense of tradition/conservatism. |
Looks like some are interested in doing the same to Churchill
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:51 - Jun 7 with 2651 views | JakeITFC |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:47 - Jun 7 by GlasgowBlue |
As John Snow once said, I've never seen so many white people in one place. |
What is the point of this comment? | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:55 - Jun 7 with 2629 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:03 - Jun 7 by footers |
Monuments and objects don't constitute history. History is a series of actions and events, and pulling down a statue exonerating a slave trader is an important symbol of where we are today.
Much like the historic sites that Daesh destroyed, it may be upsetting for some but you can't treat the world as a museum when real history is happening around you. It's happened for millennia and I can't see it changing. |
Not sure about that. There was rightly an outcry when ISIS destroyed historical sites/monuments across Syria - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/09/150901-isis-destruction-looting-
These monuments, although maybe offensive now are a record of our past. Is it better to destroy and airbrush from history, or use them as a tool to educate people (by, e.g., putting a plaque on them saying 'this bloke was a tvvat', with some information about the atrocities at that tiem)? |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:55 - Jun 7 with 2629 views | Mullet |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:51 - Jun 7 by ElderGrizzly |
Looks like some are interested in doing the same to Churchill
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This sort of illustrates my concern - the demographic and hypocrisy over social distancing digs etc combined with the image this puts out is not good for any one.
As for Churchill, the fact that our current PM is a pathetic tribute act to him and people have deified him rather than tried to understand the context of who he was etc is a constant problem.
I'd say it contributes a massive chunk to why the Brexit narrative and the generation who love their war porn/taking credit for WW2 even though it was their Dads has a strong root in that problem too. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:55 - Jun 7 with 2629 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:51 - Jun 7 by JakeITFC |
What is the point of this comment? |
More middle class white people making life harder for black people. Because that's who will get the blame. Not the people who tore it down. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:59 - Jun 7 with 2603 views | gordon |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:55 - Jun 7 by Swansea_Blue |
Not sure about that. There was rightly an outcry when ISIS destroyed historical sites/monuments across Syria - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/09/150901-isis-destruction-looting-
These monuments, although maybe offensive now are a record of our past. Is it better to destroy and airbrush from history, or use them as a tool to educate people (by, e.g., putting a plaque on them saying 'this bloke was a tvvat', with some information about the atrocities at that tiem)? |
I genuinely don't understand why so many people are conflating 'destroy' with 'remove from our history'. The two just aren't the same. | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 18:00 - Jun 7 with 2598 views | footers |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:55 - Jun 7 by Swansea_Blue |
Not sure about that. There was rightly an outcry when ISIS destroyed historical sites/monuments across Syria - https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/09/150901-isis-destruction-looting-
These monuments, although maybe offensive now are a record of our past. Is it better to destroy and airbrush from history, or use them as a tool to educate people (by, e.g., putting a plaque on them saying 'this bloke was a tvvat', with some information about the atrocities at that tiem)? |
No, I agree there was outrage at what happened in Syria. It's understandable.
But that doesn't change the fact that history isn't a material thing. The movements that are shaping our time are just the same as the others who did theirs for centuries.
History is created by victors. And it changes from culture to culture. Unsurprisingly, the way WW2 is taught in Russian or Indian schools is much different to how we teach it here.
Destroying things is just as an important a mark on history as maintaining or restoring things. Each is a political and social action and completely representative of modern history.
The statues and monuments don't need to remain to teach. If it really was an important moment it will be remembered as such. And if not, was it ever that important in the first place? | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 18:02 - Jun 7 with 2591 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:55 - Jun 7 by Mullet |
This sort of illustrates my concern - the demographic and hypocrisy over social distancing digs etc combined with the image this puts out is not good for any one.
As for Churchill, the fact that our current PM is a pathetic tribute act to him and people have deified him rather than tried to understand the context of who he was etc is a constant problem.
I'd say it contributes a massive chunk to why the Brexit narrative and the generation who love their war porn/taking credit for WW2 even though it was their Dads has a strong root in that problem too. |
It's not a good look at all. The point of original issue is being lost and it's turning into the usual culture war, stirred up by the same protagonists on social media and in the public eye (like Farage doing an 'exposé on the truths behind the BLM movement'). | |
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