| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol 15:41 - Jun 7 with 32533 views | Mullet |
Wanton act of destruction? Political statement? Bad PR?
I'm not sure this is quite the same as when they pulled down statues of Saddam in Iraq for example. Strikes me as simply ammo for the critics and little else. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:13 - Jun 7 with 2966 views | SpruceMoose |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:05 - Jun 7 by LankHenners |
Seeing as they're rhetorical questions I don't need to answer them.
I think people can see who's coming off badly in this thread. |
His argument doesn't even make sense. It's like he picked an angle two weeks ago and has been hell bent on dying on that hill ever since, even when the evidence doesn't support it. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:26 - Jun 7 with 2934 views | Oldsmoker |
The company that Colston owned transported approx 84,000 men, women and children from Africa to the Americas. Approx 19,000 died on the voyage and their bodies were thrown into the ocean. Source Wikipedia.
That recently torn down statue mentioned his philanthropy in Bristol but not that fact I've stated above.
Bristol has been having this 'Colston' conversation for some time now and all that has happened is a deferral to a later date. It seems that debate that everyone has been putting off moved a step in the right direction today IMO. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:26 - Jun 7 with 2930 views | bluelagos |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:11 - Jun 7 by Clapham_Junction |
I've just finished reading Dictatorland. A very good book, although one that will make you furious and depressed about how Africans have been treated by Europeans and subsequently their own leaders, how brutal life is and how little lives are worth. It will certainly dispel any notions that Africans travelling to Europe are simply economic migrants, particularly the chapter on Eritrea.
It also shows that the days of Empire didn't end when countries were given independence - control was still exercised through and by private companies (particularly oil ones). Shell in particular come out looking very bad, amongst other things by trying to get activists complaining about their environmental destruction executed. |
Just to say in Nigeria under Sami Abacha, Shell succeeded in having a number of Ogoni people arrested and many were executed. Ken Sara Wiwa is the most well known, but a number were executed for trying to highlight the environmental damage done by the Western oil companies. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:27 - Jun 7 with 2926 views | vapour_trail |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:03 - Jun 7 by StokieBlue |
The way history is taught in this country is pathetic.
The British Empire is barely touched, at most some people might learn the map with many countries coloured pink but they learn little of the specifics such as the uprisings in India or the methods used in Africa. It seems easier to teach about European history or the ancient world which whilst excellent is not relevant to everyday life and doesn't contain such difficult questions as those posed by other subjects.
My history A-Level was literally one century or European and British history coupled with the evolution of the historical method. Knowing about the reign of Edward VI doesn't seem to be as worthwhile as learning about British colonial history even just over one century.
Things need to start at the basic curriculum level if anything is going to change.
SB |
I didn’t do it a level funnily enough, but went back to it at uni with literature and the period coincides with all this stuff.
History is generally told from the local perspective. Everywhere.
As our society has significantly diversified over the past 50 years, I’d expect the history we teach to change in time, but there will be a lag. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:31 - Jun 7 with 2904 views | bluelagos |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:27 - Jun 7 by vapour_trail |
I didn’t do it a level funnily enough, but went back to it at uni with literature and the period coincides with all this stuff.
History is generally told from the local perspective. Everywhere.
As our society has significantly diversified over the past 50 years, I’d expect the history we teach to change in time, but there will be a lag. |
Not sure how much though. A visit to the Irish heritage museum in Wexford opened my eyes 25 years ago when I learnt about Cromwell and Churchill through Irish eyes. Had no idea of their actions in Ireland at all from my UK education. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:34 - Jun 7 with 2887 views | vapour_trail |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:31 - Jun 7 by bluelagos |
Not sure how much though. A visit to the Irish heritage museum in Wexford opened my eyes 25 years ago when I learnt about Cromwell and Churchill through Irish eyes. Had no idea of their actions in Ireland at all from my UK education. |
Well quite. History is also told by the victors. To the mass market anyway.
I’m the son of Irish immigrants who had very different lessons to me. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:41 - Jun 7 with 2864 views | tractordownsouth |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:10 - Jun 7 by syntaxerror |
Right now, with the overriding feeling in the country, if the racists do use this as a 'Call to Arms', they will lose.
This is not America, where the racists have automatic weapons, this is the UK.
Most of them are cowards.
National Front - failed.
BNP - failed.
EDL - failed.
Britain First - failed.
Football Lads Alliance - failed.
We should be proud of this fact. If the far right want to try start a race war, it will be opposed and rejected as quickly and effectively as the above. [Post edited 7 Jun 2020 22:11]
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I forgot about the Flower and Leaf Arrangers. They gave us a good couple of threads of right wing flouncing on here. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:43 - Jun 7 with 2853 views | tractordownsouth |
As for my view on the statue, we should never have slave traders being glorified in this way, but I'd have prefered the removal to have happened in a more civil manner. That said, if anyone's more upset about a piece of stone than they are about racial inequality then they're a moron. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:45 - Jun 7 with 2839 views | bluelagos |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:34 - Jun 7 by vapour_trail |
Well quite. History is also told by the victors. To the mass market anyway.
I’m the son of Irish immigrants who had very different lessons to me. |
Was quite interesting reading a Cameroun school text about the "English problem". Cameroun was a German colony and post WW1 was divided 80% to France and 20% to the UK, who ruled it as part of Nigeria.
That is why you may have heard of "the Camerouns", there really were 2 of them. After independence they were reunited in what is modern Cameroun, with the locals speaking (aside from their local languages) French and English in the different parts.
As ever, there remains tensions to this day. But the way the history book presented it was quite an eye opener. They presented the empire as one of 3 Gs, God, Gold and Glory which was again, new to me (though maybe not to others).
Bit of a ramble, but was interesting reading about their history from their own perspective. Much like "Things fall apart" which is a must read for anyone wishing to understand how the empire impacted on ordinary people. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:48 - Jun 7 with 2816 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:11 - Jun 7 by Clapham_Junction |
I've just finished reading Dictatorland. A very good book, although one that will make you furious and depressed about how Africans have been treated by Europeans and subsequently their own leaders, how brutal life is and how little lives are worth. It will certainly dispel any notions that Africans travelling to Europe are simply economic migrants, particularly the chapter on Eritrea.
It also shows that the days of Empire didn't end when countries were given independence - control was still exercised through and by private companies (particularly oil ones). Shell in particular come out looking very bad, amongst other things by trying to get activists complaining about their environmental destruction executed. |
Corporate Imperialism innit. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:56 - Jun 7 with 2799 views | bluelagos |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:48 - Jun 7 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Corporate Imperialism innit. |
You read 'No Logo' ? Opened my eyes to a whole raft of issues about consumerism, capitalism and how companies work. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 23:06 - Jun 7 with 2771 views | BlueBadger |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:55 - Jun 7 by GlasgowBlue |
More middle class white people making life harder for black people. Because that's who will get the blame. Not the people who tore it down. |
How? |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 23:19 - Jun 7 with 2729 views | tractordownsouth |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:43 - Jun 7 by tractordownsouth |
As for my view on the statue, we should never have slave traders being glorified in this way, but I'd have prefered the removal to have happened in a more civil manner. That said, if anyone's more upset about a piece of stone than they are about racial inequality then they're a moron. |
Here is a moron that's more upset about a piece of stone than they are about racial inequality
Never knew that tough man Tommy was such a snowflake
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 23:21 - Jun 7 with 2722 views | SpruceMoose |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 23:19 - Jun 7 by tractordownsouth |
Here is a moron that's more upset about a piece of stone than they are about racial inequality
Never knew that tough man Tommy was such a snowflake
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I don't think having a limp circlewånk over a statue counts as protecting it to be honest. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 23:38 - Jun 7 with 2700 views | BlueBadger |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 17:47 - Jun 7 by GlasgowBlue |
As John Snow once said, I've never seen so many white people in one place. |
I've had a think about this and here's the thing. Yes, it is middle class white people pulling it down. It was middle class white people that benefitted the most from slavery. It's about time we started taking some f*cking responsibility for our bullsh*t. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 02:05 - Jun 8 with 2634 views | itfcjoe |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 23:38 - Jun 7 by BlueBadger |
I've had a think about this and here's the thing. Yes, it is middle class white people pulling it down. It was middle class white people that benefitted the most from slavery. It's about time we started taking some f*cking responsibility for our bullsh*t. |
It doesn’t take responsibility for it doing it under the umbrella of Black Lives Matter. It’s fairly clear looking across social media that a lot of the (far?) right are quite happy to shorten Black Lives Matter protestors to Black protestors.
So yet again, white people get away with it, with no consequences for their actions.
It’s worse in the US, where the systemic racism is much worse, the whites on the streets act with impunity whilst the BAME population have to deal with a more angry and fired up police force who already make their life hell |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 02:46 - Jun 8 with 2616 views | SpruceMoose |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 02:05 - Jun 8 by itfcjoe |
It doesn’t take responsibility for it doing it under the umbrella of Black Lives Matter. It’s fairly clear looking across social media that a lot of the (far?) right are quite happy to shorten Black Lives Matter protestors to Black protestors.
So yet again, white people get away with it, with no consequences for their actions.
It’s worse in the US, where the systemic racism is much worse, the whites on the streets act with impunity whilst the BAME population have to deal with a more angry and fired up police force who already make their life hell |
What you describe in the US not the case. Not in the slightest. It's so wide of the mark I'm actually staggered you'd state it so confidently as fact.
Might I ask, where are you getting the information that has brought you to this conclusion? [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 2:49]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 05:35 - Jun 8 with 2594 views | WeWereZombies |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:45 - Jun 7 by bluelagos |
Was quite interesting reading a Cameroun school text about the "English problem". Cameroun was a German colony and post WW1 was divided 80% to France and 20% to the UK, who ruled it as part of Nigeria.
That is why you may have heard of "the Camerouns", there really were 2 of them. After independence they were reunited in what is modern Cameroun, with the locals speaking (aside from their local languages) French and English in the different parts.
As ever, there remains tensions to this day. But the way the history book presented it was quite an eye opener. They presented the empire as one of 3 Gs, God, Gold and Glory which was again, new to me (though maybe not to others).
Bit of a ramble, but was interesting reading about their history from their own perspective. Much like "Things fall apart" which is a must read for anyone wishing to understand how the empire impacted on ordinary people. |
I read 'Things Fall Apart' as being a commentary on male power losing its grip with age as much as anything else, and a warning not to take the insidious ways of missionaries too lightly. So more a condemnation of cultural appropriation rather than empire - surely the same thing you say? I disagree, it is possible to make alliances and retain some autonomy (and it isn't possible to live forever in splendid isolation - although Japan gave it a fair go), I need to read Anthony Sampson's biography of Macmillan and get up to speed on the 'Wind of Change' as a follow up to that excellent biography of Mandela.
But, returning to Chinua Achebe, I also found 'There Was A Country: A Personal History of Biafra' a compelling read and all the more vital as being written by someone so closely involved, similar in that way to Churchill's History of the Second World War. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 07:02 - Jun 8 with 2566 views | bluelagos |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 05:35 - Jun 8 by WeWereZombies |
I read 'Things Fall Apart' as being a commentary on male power losing its grip with age as much as anything else, and a warning not to take the insidious ways of missionaries too lightly. So more a condemnation of cultural appropriation rather than empire - surely the same thing you say? I disagree, it is possible to make alliances and retain some autonomy (and it isn't possible to live forever in splendid isolation - although Japan gave it a fair go), I need to read Anthony Sampson's biography of Macmillan and get up to speed on the 'Wind of Change' as a follow up to that excellent biography of Mandela.
But, returning to Chinua Achebe, I also found 'There Was A Country: A Personal History of Biafra' a compelling read and all the more vital as being written by someone so closely involved, similar in that way to Churchill's History of the Second World War. |
All I will say is that like mamy things, my knowledge is superficiial and biased by personal experience, so won't / can't engage on those points.
Ref Biafra, my old cook told me the story of how as a young man he got caught up in things. He was an Igbo (Biafran) living and working in Lagos (Non Biafra) and decided to return home to fight for their independence. He was arrested on sight (you can tell people from the East) and was being marched to what he presumes was his death.
He was the last in the line of prisoners and managed to escape by using his money (for transport) to bribe the final guard. He returned to his Nigerian (Yoroba) empoyers and spent the war in hiding as he would have been rearrested/killed had he ventured outside.
One of the most successful aspects of modern Nigeria is how they put a civil war, that caused between 1 and 3 million deaths, behind them. People will talk about it but it is not a common discussion point and there was little bitterness when you consider what happened.
Proper old gentleman who was honest, likeable and made the best jolloff rice I've ever tasted.
Oh and a series of INGOs (including MSF) started during the Biafran war, such was the horror of seeing starvation being used as a tactic to bring about the collapse of the biafran state. One of whom I went onto work for in Liberia as it happens. Really should read up more on it. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 07:39 - Jun 8 with 2540 views | Darth_Koont |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 20:19 - Jun 7 by vapour_trail |
To be fair this statue, the hall, college and other associated tributes in the town have been pretty divisive for some time.
My old boy moved there in the 90s and lived there until a couple or so years ago, and I remember a few animated conversations in his local up in Clifton on the issue. Very strong feeling on both sides.
He’d have loved to have seen what happened today, had he still been around. |
Indeed. My father's partner is a born and bred Bristolian who doesn't want the name to be removed from the Colston Hall etc pretty much because it's part of her own past and identity. I understand that but I've disagreed with her because of the overall context. So the Colston issue itself is hardly something without its own controversial past.
As a statement about the status quo, pulling down the statue is entirely consistent within BLM. This is what happens when injustices aren't addressed properly during normal times. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 07:40 - Jun 8 with 2535 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:56 - Jun 7 by bluelagos |
You read 'No Logo' ? Opened my eyes to a whole raft of issues about consumerism, capitalism and how companies work. |
No I haven't but a did do a degree in human geography concentrating on what was then called 'Third World Studies' a loooooong time ago. All thoroughly disillusioning. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 7:46]
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 07:42 - Jun 8 with 2526 views | itfcjoe |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 02:46 - Jun 8 by SpruceMoose |
What you describe in the US not the case. Not in the slightest. It's so wide of the mark I'm actually staggered you'd state it so confidently as fact.
Might I ask, where are you getting the information that has brought you to this conclusion? [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 2:49]
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Who gets treated worse by the police in the US?
So who is dealing with any repercussions of the actions taken as part of these protests with regards to police conduct going forwards? | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 07:48 - Jun 8 with 2506 views | Darth_Koont |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 07:42 - Jun 8 by itfcjoe |
Who gets treated worse by the police in the US?
So who is dealing with any repercussions of the actions taken as part of these protests with regards to police conduct going forwards? |
Black people aren't being treated badly by the police because of white people protesting against the police.
But you think this will now make it worse? I'm struggling to see the cause and effect. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:00 - Jun 8 with 2446 views | itfcjoe |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 07:48 - Jun 8 by Darth_Koont |
Black people aren't being treated badly by the police because of white people protesting against the police.
But you think this will now make it worse? I'm struggling to see the cause and effect. |
Black people get treated badly by the police at the best of times.
Any white person who is protesting violently or criminally, in addition to any and every block person doing the same, is increasing the polices anger, and no doubt decreasing the quality of their conduct.
Who do you think will bear any further brunt for this disproportionately?
Edit: I’ve been attacked by police in Spain for being an English football fan, after a day when police have had a load of sh*t they’ve pulled over and jumped out and whacked us all round the legs with truncheons, completely unprovoked. This sort of thing will happen, and do you think they’ll do it to groups of white people or Black people? [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 8:03]
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:01 - Jun 8 with 2441 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 22:10 - Jun 7 by syntaxerror |
Right now, with the overriding feeling in the country, if the racists do use this as a 'Call to Arms', they will lose.
This is not America, where the racists have automatic weapons, this is the UK.
Most of them are cowards.
National Front - failed.
BNP - failed.
EDL - failed.
Britain First - failed.
Football Lads Alliance - failed.
We should be proud of this fact. If the far right want to try start a race war, it will be opposed and rejected as quickly and effectively as the above. [Post edited 7 Jun 2020 22:11]
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They would indeed. Just compare the support of these protests to those organised by racist groups over the last few years - they hardly get any support. It’s very reassuring that despite the coverage people like Farage get, the racists are largely irrelevant. |  |
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