| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol 15:41 - Jun 7 with 32486 views | Mullet |
Wanton act of destruction? Political statement? Bad PR?
I'm not sure this is quite the same as when they pulled down statues of Saddam in Iraq for example. Strikes me as simply ammo for the critics and little else. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:06 - Jun 8 with 5589 views | Darth_Koont |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:00 - Jun 8 by itfcjoe |
Black people get treated badly by the police at the best of times.
Any white person who is protesting violently or criminally, in addition to any and every block person doing the same, is increasing the polices anger, and no doubt decreasing the quality of their conduct.
Who do you think will bear any further brunt for this disproportionately?
Edit: I’ve been attacked by police in Spain for being an English football fan, after a day when police have had a load of sh*t they’ve pulled over and jumped out and whacked us all round the legs with truncheons, completely unprovoked. This sort of thing will happen, and do you think they’ll do it to groups of white people or Black people? [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 8:03]
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If you said that white people in general were now going to be treated worse by police, you'd have more of a case. I'd still disagree though.
The Colston statue being pulled down and thrown in the docks was a multicultural issue based on the picture evidence. You know that, the police know that, and even those trying to politicize it know that.
How that leads to black people being treated worse by the police, I don't know. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:13 - Jun 8 with 5555 views | gordon |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:00 - Jun 8 by itfcjoe |
Black people get treated badly by the police at the best of times.
Any white person who is protesting violently or criminally, in addition to any and every block person doing the same, is increasing the polices anger, and no doubt decreasing the quality of their conduct.
Who do you think will bear any further brunt for this disproportionately?
Edit: I’ve been attacked by police in Spain for being an English football fan, after a day when police have had a load of sh*t they’ve pulled over and jumped out and whacked us all round the legs with truncheons, completely unprovoked. This sort of thing will happen, and do you think they’ll do it to groups of white people or Black people? [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 8:03]
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You think the police are going to start carrying out unprovoked violent attacks on groups of black people because a statue of a slave trader was thrown into a river? |  | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:14 - Jun 8 with 5548 views | bluelagos |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 07:40 - Jun 8 by BanksterDebtSlave |
No I haven't but a did do a degree in human geography concentrating on what was then called 'Third World Studies' a loooooong time ago. All thoroughly disillusioning. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 7:46]
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It would be right up your street. If we ever get to return to Portman Rd, happy to pass my copy on. Should be complusive reading for any free marketeers who fail to recognise the damage big business does in persueing their self interest. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:16 - Jun 8 with 5537 views | itfcjoe |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:13 - Jun 8 by gordon |
You think the police are going to start carrying out unprovoked violent attacks on groups of black people because a statue of a slave trader was thrown into a river? |
No, try following the thread I’ve replied to
EDIT:@ But to spell it out, any bad behaviour shown by white people on these demonstrations with regards to violence, destruction of property or looting will be blamed collectively on the BAME community, especially in the States.
Therefore, in my view, the white people doing this are exercising their privilege and acting with basic impunity [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 8:25]
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:23 - Jun 8 with 5513 views | gordon |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 07:40 - Jun 8 by BanksterDebtSlave |
No I haven't but a did do a degree in human geography concentrating on what was then called 'Third World Studies' a loooooong time ago. All thoroughly disillusioning. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 7:46]
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At my university I'm involved in a cross-disciplinary research project led by a Human Geography Professor. He researches the metaphorical non-linearities of the world-ocean space as an imagined reality. Or something. After every conversation with him I wish I had a proper job. | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:33 - Jun 8 with 5487 views | gordon |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:16 - Jun 8 by itfcjoe |
No, try following the thread I’ve replied to
EDIT:@ But to spell it out, any bad behaviour shown by white people on these demonstrations with regards to violence, destruction of property or looting will be blamed collectively on the BAME community, especially in the States.
Therefore, in my view, the white people doing this are exercising their privilege and acting with basic impunity [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 8:25]
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Your argument in précis (and that of GlasgowBlue) is that you don't support anti-racism protests because you think they will upset or antagonise racists, who may then carry out acts of violence as revenge. And you would hold anti-racism protestors responsible for those attacks, rather than the racist individuals perpretrating the violence. | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:38 - Jun 8 with 5480 views | itfcjoe |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:33 - Jun 8 by gordon |
Your argument in précis (and that of GlasgowBlue) is that you don't support anti-racism protests because you think they will upset or antagonise racists, who may then carry out acts of violence as revenge. And you would hold anti-racism protestors responsible for those attacks, rather than the racist individuals perpretrating the violence. |
No, that isn't my argument.
I have no problem with the protests.
I just think the white anti-racist protestors taking the lead are doing so from a position of privilege and that they will not face the repercussions that the BAME community will do so that they should take a more backward role in it.
Well done for getting every single part of that wrong though, quite impressive. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:45 - Jun 8 with 5453 views | eireblue |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:38 - Jun 8 by itfcjoe |
No, that isn't my argument.
I have no problem with the protests.
I just think the white anti-racist protestors taking the lead are doing so from a position of privilege and that they will not face the repercussions that the BAME community will do so that they should take a more backward role in it.
Well done for getting every single part of that wrong though, quite impressive. |
“...taking the lead...”
Another assumption. |  | | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:52 - Jun 8 with 5443 views | Darth_Koont |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:16 - Jun 8 by itfcjoe |
No, try following the thread I’ve replied to
EDIT:@ But to spell it out, any bad behaviour shown by white people on these demonstrations with regards to violence, destruction of property or looting will be blamed collectively on the BAME community, especially in the States.
Therefore, in my view, the white people doing this are exercising their privilege and acting with basic impunity [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 8:25]
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You seem to be saying any excuse will be taken to blame black people and delegitimise the protests by racists or those otherwise not interested in looking at the BLM protests as a whole or even the video evidence.
To be honest, I think we've been worrying about those people too much all along.
And I still don't get how documented footage feeds into worse treatment of black people by the police. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:01 - Jun 8 with 5416 views | TheTrueBlue1878 |
When you understand that Edward Colston made a significant amount of his money through slave trading and slave produced sugar, it really begs the question why the hell he has statue up in this country anyway, glad it is gone.
I have slight different feelings towards the Churchill statue, I don't like Churchill's racial standpoint in times gone by, however he led this country through conquering one of the biggest racists in history, and I don't think that should be forgotten. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:15 - Jun 8 with 5388 views | EdwardStone |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 16:24 - Jun 7 by TRUE_BLUE123 |
This country has a huge problem in the way we honour political heroes.Statues when it comes to politics are not smart. The Churchill statues have been vandalised many times, for everyone who loves Churchill there are people who view him as a huge racist who believed in white supremacy. Edward Colston did a lot of good in his life, he also did an awful lot of bad. Is a statue a smart way of honouring him?? Not for me. Im not surprised its been ripped down and I would be surprised if its not been vandalised in the past |
The idea that he did some good and some bad really does not sit well with me
I think he did an immense amount of evil and was rewarded with a fortune
He then used some of this money to do some public-spirited things
No equivalence....on the scales of balance it would be an anvil in one pan and maybe a feather in the other
Did he spend money on the public because of remorse? Guilt? Or to establish himself in the public's perception as "One of the Good Guys" ?
Did he give away all of his worldly goods and freely admit to the suffering he caused and seek forgiveness?
Don't think so |  | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:21 - Jun 8 with 5381 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 08:33 - Jun 8 by gordon |
Your argument in précis (and that of GlasgowBlue) is that you don't support anti-racism protests because you think they will upset or antagonise racists, who may then carry out acts of violence as revenge. And you would hold anti-racism protestors responsible for those attacks, rather than the racist individuals perpretrating the violence. |
Complete misrepresentation of both mine and Joe’s position. I’ve protested against racism. I wasn’t concerned as to whether my attendance would upset racists.
The point we are both making is that white lead violence and vandalism (for clarity I’m not supporting statues for slavers staying in place) in support of a black cause will lead to black people getting the blame and Suffering the after effects.
I’m not sure why you have completely disregarded the points we are making and going down the route that we are a) in favour of slavers having statues and b) we don’t support BLM or the protests. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 9:30]
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:34 - Jun 8 with 5357 views | JakeITFC |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:21 - Jun 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Complete misrepresentation of both mine and Joe’s position. I’ve protested against racism. I wasn’t concerned as to whether my attendance would upset racists.
The point we are both making is that white lead violence and vandalism (for clarity I’m not supporting statues for slavers staying in place) in support of a black cause will lead to black people getting the blame and Suffering the after effects.
I’m not sure why you have completely disregarded the points we are making and going down the route that we are a) in favour of slavers having statues and b) we don’t support BLM or the protests. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 9:30]
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It seems weird to me that you’re more concerned over the opinion of racists rather than the solidarity of protest. |  | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:40 - Jun 8 with 5332 views | Darth_Koont |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:34 - Jun 8 by JakeITFC |
It seems weird to me that you’re more concerned over the opinion of racists rather than the solidarity of protest. |
It's not weird when you realise that GB doesn't actually want systemic/structural change.
Then his status quo-approved version of protest makes perfect sense. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:45 - Jun 8 with 5312 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:34 - Jun 8 by JakeITFC |
It seems weird to me that you’re more concerned over the opinion of racists rather than the solidarity of protest. |
Again another misrepresentation. I fully support BLM and the right to protest.
It’s because I’m completely in support of civil rights and the rights of people of colour to be treated no differently than anyone else that I’m concerned that they will suffer a backlash because of the actions of mostly white people.
We’ve already seen Yaxley Lennon and Farage firing up their racist foot soldiers because of the actions of mainly white people.
It’s not mainly white people that are now going to see more discrimination and violence against them.
It’s not whites people who are going to be on the end of more heavy added treat emend by the police. | |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:54 - Jun 8 with 5287 views | JakeITFC |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:45 - Jun 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Again another misrepresentation. I fully support BLM and the right to protest.
It’s because I’m completely in support of civil rights and the rights of people of colour to be treated no differently than anyone else that I’m concerned that they will suffer a backlash because of the actions of mostly white people.
We’ve already seen Yaxley Lennon and Farage firing up their racist foot soldiers because of the actions of mainly white people.
It’s not mainly white people that are now going to see more discrimination and violence against them.
It’s not whites people who are going to be on the end of more heavy added treat emend by the police. |
But it is for white people to now stand in solidarity and not allow this to happen. | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:57 - Jun 8 with 5272 views | sparks |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:45 - Jun 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Again another misrepresentation. I fully support BLM and the right to protest.
It’s because I’m completely in support of civil rights and the rights of people of colour to be treated no differently than anyone else that I’m concerned that they will suffer a backlash because of the actions of mostly white people.
We’ve already seen Yaxley Lennon and Farage firing up their racist foot soldiers because of the actions of mainly white people.
It’s not mainly white people that are now going to see more discrimination and violence against them.
It’s not whites people who are going to be on the end of more heavy added treat emend by the police. |
I think your argument is misconceived on this occasion.
I cannot see that this is going to create a specific law enforcement based backlash against black folk.
Morons like Yaxley will do what they do- and with a bit of luck will find themselves in prison as a result. But we certainly cant be lead by concern about what they will do. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:10 - Jun 8 with 5231 views | eireblue |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:21 - Jun 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Complete misrepresentation of both mine and Joe’s position. I’ve protested against racism. I wasn’t concerned as to whether my attendance would upset racists.
The point we are both making is that white lead violence and vandalism (for clarity I’m not supporting statues for slavers staying in place) in support of a black cause will lead to black people getting the blame and Suffering the after effects.
I’m not sure why you have completely disregarded the points we are making and going down the route that we are a) in favour of slavers having statues and b) we don’t support BLM or the protests. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 9:30]
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Again the assumptions.
I saw a white male and black female climb off the statue after the ropes were attached.
Why assume the white male lead the black female?
Should the crowd have just stood aside and said, okay all you PoC, if you want that statue pulled down, you go ahead and do it on your own.
Would that have been acceptable to GB and Joe?
GB stated “... it is up to the people affected by racism to decide how to react.”
Therefore the PoC that took that action, are okay to react like that.
But you can only come up with a reason to condemn the white people, by assuming the actions where lead by white middle class people.
Which only works if you assume that the PoC, that were clearly involved, were lead by middle class white boys.
Can’t PoC be lefty anarchists too?
Personally if I helped pull that statue down, And was quite pleased by my actions, I would be quite miffed, if some middle aged, middle class white person, took that away from me by claiming it was the other kids that did it. | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:19 - Jun 8 with 5212 views | clive_baker |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 09:45 - Jun 8 by GlasgowBlue |
Again another misrepresentation. I fully support BLM and the right to protest.
It’s because I’m completely in support of civil rights and the rights of people of colour to be treated no differently than anyone else that I’m concerned that they will suffer a backlash because of the actions of mostly white people.
We’ve already seen Yaxley Lennon and Farage firing up their racist foot soldiers because of the actions of mainly white people.
It’s not mainly white people that are now going to see more discrimination and violence against them.
It’s not whites people who are going to be on the end of more heavy added treat emend by the police. |
To be fair, I don't think progress should be hampered for fear of ruffling all the wrong feathers. None of us would say that Martin Luther King shouldn't be celebrated by white people or otherwise, because some closet Nazis might be angry about it. It's about right and wrong, and encouragingly, I don't see a single person on this thread suggesting this statue should remain in place in its current context, with a view to celebrating beneficiaries of the slave trade. So perhaps we should celebrate the fact it's gone, and that yesterday represents progress.
I do think there are valid arguments around how it went. On this occasion, it's hopefully symbolic, but allowing small groups to run riot in a city, tearing down statues and dragging them through the city in broad daylight and throwing into the river, making such decisions off their own back isn't how we need to go about all this. It needs to be a bigger job that's left to authorities with appropriate democratic process in place. We need to take a step back and by more strategic about how all this is done, but something needs to happen. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:23 - Jun 8 with 5199 views | Darth_Koont |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:19 - Jun 8 by clive_baker |
To be fair, I don't think progress should be hampered for fear of ruffling all the wrong feathers. None of us would say that Martin Luther King shouldn't be celebrated by white people or otherwise, because some closet Nazis might be angry about it. It's about right and wrong, and encouragingly, I don't see a single person on this thread suggesting this statue should remain in place in its current context, with a view to celebrating beneficiaries of the slave trade. So perhaps we should celebrate the fact it's gone, and that yesterday represents progress.
I do think there are valid arguments around how it went. On this occasion, it's hopefully symbolic, but allowing small groups to run riot in a city, tearing down statues and dragging them through the city in broad daylight and throwing into the river, making such decisions off their own back isn't how we need to go about all this. It needs to be a bigger job that's left to authorities with appropriate democratic process in place. We need to take a step back and by more strategic about how all this is done, but something needs to happen. |
Agree with your post on the whole.
Re: "It needs to be a bigger job that's left to authorities with appropriate democratic process in place." Problem is that in the case of Colston nothing really happened through that approach. This has been an ongoing issue for many years in Bristol. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 10:24]
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:24 - Jun 8 with 5186 views | JakeITFC |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:19 - Jun 8 by clive_baker |
To be fair, I don't think progress should be hampered for fear of ruffling all the wrong feathers. None of us would say that Martin Luther King shouldn't be celebrated by white people or otherwise, because some closet Nazis might be angry about it. It's about right and wrong, and encouragingly, I don't see a single person on this thread suggesting this statue should remain in place in its current context, with a view to celebrating beneficiaries of the slave trade. So perhaps we should celebrate the fact it's gone, and that yesterday represents progress.
I do think there are valid arguments around how it went. On this occasion, it's hopefully symbolic, but allowing small groups to run riot in a city, tearing down statues and dragging them through the city in broad daylight and throwing into the river, making such decisions off their own back isn't how we need to go about all this. It needs to be a bigger job that's left to authorities with appropriate democratic process in place. We need to take a step back and by more strategic about how all this is done, but something needs to happen. |
If we wait for democratic process, the statue is still standing.
There has been plenty of time for democratic process - it’s left us with systematically unfair and biased society. | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:28 - Jun 8 with 5177 views | Radlett_blue |
Here is an excellent, if lengthy, group of tweets on this subject from Professor Kate Williams & it explains how you deal with such issues is fraught with risk as you can't please everyone.
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:28 - Jun 8 with 5172 views | eireblue |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:23 - Jun 8 by Darth_Koont |
Agree with your post on the whole.
Re: "It needs to be a bigger job that's left to authorities with appropriate democratic process in place." Problem is that in the case of Colston nothing really happened through that approach. This has been an ongoing issue for many years in Bristol. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 10:24]
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Agree.
The nice outcome would be if people in authority thought, actually you know what, let’s dump the others as well, debates about wording on similar statues is not really cutting it. | | | |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:28 - Jun 8 with 5173 views | Kropotkin123 |
I have a friend who is very right-wing and I expected him to be against this act, but he was completely sympathetic and was surprised it hadn't been taken down a long time ago.
He was really angry about the Churchill stuff and thought that we can't always judge people by modern standards. He is one of the most important people for defining modern UK freedoms that we all enjoy.
Felt it was fairly balanced and didn't really disagree with it myself. Statues are there to be symbols to celebrate and aspire to achieve more. No one looks at the Colston statue and thinks of the philanthropy without the disgusting way he acquired his money. Very different from Churchill. |  |
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| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:31 - Jun 8 with 5155 views | clive_baker |
| Colston statue pulled down by protestors in Bristol on 10:23 - Jun 8 by Darth_Koont |
Agree with your post on the whole.
Re: "It needs to be a bigger job that's left to authorities with appropriate democratic process in place." Problem is that in the case of Colston nothing really happened through that approach. This has been an ongoing issue for many years in Bristol. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 10:24]
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I agree with that, this is a failing of Bristol council more than anything. I lived there for a while and it's definitely been contentious for a long time. I would add though that I spoke to a number of my mates yesterday who still live in Bristol, who all said something along the lines of 'but nothing gets done through the formal channels', yet not a single one of them had tried. I would wager <1% of those there yesterday had tried. This isn't how civilised communities should operate. | |
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