| The death penalty 09:17 - Mar 10 with 19740 views | SitfcB |
Bring it back.
Especially for scum like Ian Huntley.
How much does looking after that c**t, and others like him, in prison cost the UK taxpayer? Waste of resources.
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| The death penalty on 10:03 - Jan 22 with 1717 views | PassionNotAnger |
| The death penalty on 09:08 - Jan 22 by Trequartista |
What it has to do with it is that it's an example of where the state already accepts innocent death. |
Sorry but that's just patently wrong - how does the state "accept" innocent death for motorists/road users?
Every government (regardless of how effective they are) encourages road safety via legislation, mandatory driving tests, enforcement of laws for speeding etc. Anyone that causes another person to be killed is subject to the criminal justice system (again, regardless of how effective that is).
I think it's reasonable to suggest that with that many people using the roads statistically its understood that unfortunately people will be injured/killed but that's no different to workplace accidents, sporting accidents etc but that's not "acceptance" of it.
Really not sure of what you actually mean here - do you have some evidence that the state accepts it? |  | | |
| The death penalty on 10:04 - Jan 22 with 1715 views | baxterbasics |
In theory I don't have a moral objection to death penalty in certain circumstances. Regardless of arguments about deterrence or costs, some individuals are just best being made into former-individuals.
In practice, I cannot trust the state or our justice system with it, for reasons well discussed. That's the problem. |  |
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| The death penalty on 10:17 - Jan 22 with 1674 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| The death penalty on 09:04 - Jan 22 by Trequartista |
Some say bloodlust, some say justice. |
So executing the wrong person is justice?
Have we entered a parallel universe? |  |
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| The death penalty on 10:19 - Jan 22 with 1655 views | Churchman |
No, if I was an MP I still couldn’t vote for the death penalty. Beyond all the arguments it just feels wrong.
However, I still hold the view that prisoners should be self funding. If their families wish to contribute, fine but I certainly have no desire to pay a penny towards the upkeep of the creature that has re-triggered this debate, the Soham beast or any other.
I also believe that if you take somebody’s life in this way, unless you can reverse that and all the pain you left their families with, you stay locked up. ‘Uman rights’ forfeited - you are just a number until you leave in a box.
Yes, very Daily Mail (which I don’t read), but it’s how I feel. How parents and relations live with such horrendous loss I can’t imagine.
Just my opinion. |  | | |
| The death penalty on 10:20 - Jan 22 with 1655 views | eireblue |
| The death penalty on 09:08 - Jan 22 by Trequartista |
What it has to do with it is that it's an example of where the state already accepts innocent death. |
It doesn’t.
It actively creates rules and regulations, and has campaigns in order to reduce innocent death.
Actively trying to prevent something is not the same as accepting something. |  | | |
| The death penalty on 10:20 - Jan 22 with 1653 views | Parky |
| The death penalty on 08:15 - Jan 22 by Zx1988 |
I'm not sure that euthanising the mentally ill is the flex that you think it is.
That said, it's probably right up Elon's street. |
As Sean Dyche once said “utter woke nonsense”. | | | |
| The death penalty on 10:21 - Jan 22 with 1650 views | wkj |
| The death penalty on 10:17 - Jan 22 by Tangledupin_Blue |
So executing the wrong person is justice?
Have we entered a parallel universe? |
I just think he's kind of confused himself on this one. Not saying this to be mean spirited, but the whole commentary seems muddled and incoherent. |  |
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| The death penalty on 10:43 - Jan 22 with 1596 views | tractordownsouth |
| The death penalty on 08:53 - Jan 22 by Swansea_Blue |
Agreed. One argument I always see for the death sentence is cost, but there’s lots of things we collectively contribute to that we don’t use ourselves. Maybe we could be more creative about how we extract value from prisoners. I don’t see why they can’t work for nothing while the state is housing and feeding them, for example. Like an expanded community service but on the inside. That probably happens already to some degree - I know prisoners in Dartmoor used to make JBL speaker cabinets. That value benefits the company though - surely they could do something that benefits society rather than private companies. |
I don't have the figures but I'm sure I read that the death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment anyway, after the multiple obligatory legal challenges have all been exhausted. |  |
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| The death penalty on 10:49 - Jan 22 with 1553 views | Trequartista |
| The death penalty on 09:55 - Jan 22 by StokieBlue |
That's a ridiculous comparison.
If you actually think it's a good example then any debate is pointless.
SB |
Standard response. |  |
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| The death penalty on 10:54 - Jan 22 with 1548 views | Trequartista |
| The death penalty on 09:23 - Jan 22 by Zx1988 |
They're wholly incomparable.
One is an accident, the other is state-committed murder. Other than both resulting in death, they have no other comparable aspects.
It's also likely that capital punishment will end up in even more miscarriages of justice than is currently the case. Assuming that a stance would be adopted whereby (for the majority of capital offences) an early guilty plea would take the death penalty off the table, you can easily see that some suspects may feel coerced into pleading guilty. |
Although the car accidents are accidents, it is not an accident to know in advance that innocent people will die.
For the early guilty plea removing the death penalty, you're getting into the whys and wherefores before they have been discussed. That rule wouldn't necessarily be in place. | |
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| The death penalty on 11:00 - Jan 22 with 1537 views | Trequartista |
| The death penalty on 09:48 - Jan 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You don't have a choice with car accidents though!
Nobody accepts them - we do everything we can to prevent them. You're talking the opposite with the death penalty. It's a deliberate act where we have a choice. |
You remove cars or set the speed limit to 5mph (Crazy of course but its just an extension of the argument where people say it should be 20mph instead of 30mph).
That would pretty much kill the economy but its still a choice we make. "We're not deliberately murdering people, we would do everything we can to prevent that." - Applies to both.
You're mixing up the act of death (accident vs deliberate) with the overall policy (we know innocent people will die vs we know innocent people will die). [Post edited 22 Jan 11:01]
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| The death penalty on 11:02 - Jan 22 with 1531 views | Trequartista |
| The death penalty on 10:17 - Jan 22 by Tangledupin_Blue |
So executing the wrong person is justice?
Have we entered a parallel universe? |
Not what i said. | |
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| The death penalty on 11:06 - Jan 22 with 1516 views | Trequartista |
| The death penalty on 10:21 - Jan 22 by wkj |
I just think he's kind of confused himself on this one. Not saying this to be mean spirited, but the whole commentary seems muddled and incoherent. |
I don't mind you saying that at all as its not an insult or name-calling, and its quite a nuanced position. I can try and summarise.
- In a perfect world where mistakes are never made, I am for the death penalty for the most heinous crimes.
- We don't live in a perfect world, and so in reality I am against the death penalty.
- I don't think it is a slam-dunk to say mistakes can be made, therefore it cannot be a possibility (even though on balance I agree) because the state accepts certain death in one scenario already. | |
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| The death penalty on 11:09 - Jan 22 with 1502 views | Trequartista |
| The death penalty on 10:03 - Jan 22 by PassionNotAnger |
Sorry but that's just patently wrong - how does the state "accept" innocent death for motorists/road users?
Every government (regardless of how effective they are) encourages road safety via legislation, mandatory driving tests, enforcement of laws for speeding etc. Anyone that causes another person to be killed is subject to the criminal justice system (again, regardless of how effective that is).
I think it's reasonable to suggest that with that many people using the roads statistically its understood that unfortunately people will be injured/killed but that's no different to workplace accidents, sporting accidents etc but that's not "acceptance" of it.
Really not sure of what you actually mean here - do you have some evidence that the state accepts it? |
The evidence is clear. We know people will be killed on the roads on almost a daily basis as it stands, but because to stop this would be such a drastic and disastrous change to life now that the motor vehicle is so embedded in day-to-day life, we choose not to remove them from the roads. | |
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| The death penalty on 11:11 - Jan 22 with 1480 views | Trequartista |
| The death penalty on 09:44 - Jan 22 by wkj |
You don't think its the slam-dunk its made out to be by a lot of people who are against it, but what about those who are for it that act like its a slam dunk? |
I think they're wrong. I think a lot of people on the right (and I mean decent respectable people, not far-right) has this instinctive urge for retribution (see also paedophile behaviour) that doesn't course through my veins. | |
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| The death penalty on 11:17 - Jan 22 with 1449 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The death penalty on 11:00 - Jan 22 by Trequartista |
You remove cars or set the speed limit to 5mph (Crazy of course but its just an extension of the argument where people say it should be 20mph instead of 30mph).
That would pretty much kill the economy but its still a choice we make. "We're not deliberately murdering people, we would do everything we can to prevent that." - Applies to both.
You're mixing up the act of death (accident vs deliberate) with the overall policy (we know innocent people will die vs we know innocent people will die). [Post edited 22 Jan 11:01]
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It's you who's mixed up. You're in a hole and can't seem to stop digging despite everyone telling you your analogy doesn't work.
"We're not deliberately murdering people, we would do everything we can to prevent that" doesn't apply to both. Driving a car isn't deliberately murdering people.
The act of death - whether accident or deliberate - should determine the overall policy, they're not separate. One is deliberately killing people (where some would be innocent) versus an action which isn't intended to kill anyone (but some innocents would die).
By your logic, the only way we can justify not having the death penalty is if we also ban everything that could accidentally kill someone. So that includes all forms of transport, fire, electricity, stairs, most clothing... even our food would have to be blended and served in tiny quantities.
You haven't thought this through. |  |
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| The death penalty on 11:27 - Jan 22 with 1430 views | Trequartista |
| The death penalty on 11:17 - Jan 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
It's you who's mixed up. You're in a hole and can't seem to stop digging despite everyone telling you your analogy doesn't work.
"We're not deliberately murdering people, we would do everything we can to prevent that" doesn't apply to both. Driving a car isn't deliberately murdering people.
The act of death - whether accident or deliberate - should determine the overall policy, they're not separate. One is deliberately killing people (where some would be innocent) versus an action which isn't intended to kill anyone (but some innocents would die).
By your logic, the only way we can justify not having the death penalty is if we also ban everything that could accidentally kill someone. So that includes all forms of transport, fire, electricity, stairs, most clothing... even our food would have to be blended and served in tiny quantities.
You haven't thought this through. |
The first paragraph is just water off a duck's back. I've heard that all before and it means nothing. I think the evidence for all to see is I've actually answered the vast majority of points put to me head on rather than ignore awkward questions.
Not sure there's more to add with the actual debate As I've said I am actually against the death penalty in practice because mistakes would be made. I think the car thing has grown legs a bit because it makes you think deeper about things, but it is just an aside about it not being a open and shut case rather than crux of my position which is 'against'. | |
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| The death penalty on 11:34 - Jan 22 with 1385 views | StokieBlue |
| The death penalty on 10:49 - Jan 22 by Trequartista |
Standard response. |
Care to elaborate?
I am always willing to debate if the debate is in good faith and reasonable.
You've chosen a nonsensical starting position and thus it doesn't fit the criteria.
SB |  | | |
| The death penalty on 11:41 - Jan 22 with 1369 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The death penalty on 11:27 - Jan 22 by Trequartista |
The first paragraph is just water off a duck's back. I've heard that all before and it means nothing. I think the evidence for all to see is I've actually answered the vast majority of points put to me head on rather than ignore awkward questions.
Not sure there's more to add with the actual debate As I've said I am actually against the death penalty in practice because mistakes would be made. I think the car thing has grown legs a bit because it makes you think deeper about things, but it is just an aside about it not being a open and shut case rather than crux of my position which is 'against'. |
Ha, you say you haven't ignored awkward questions... but in this reply you're certainly ignoring my extension of your logic, and even shut it down rather than dealing with it by saying "Not sure there's more to add".
For me the debate against the death penalty is rock solid - miscarriages of justice mean innocent people killed, it's been proven not to be a deterrent, it's barbaric and mediaeval, some of the worst states in the world have it, and it's less of a punishment than full life imprisonment (which ends the same way, just over a longer period).
When you put all those together it's a slam dunk. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The death penalty on 11:54 - Jan 22 with 1339 views | bluelagos |
| The death penalty on 08:51 - Jan 22 by Trequartista |
Would they have all been sentenced to death under a death penalty that required "beyond any doubt" ?
We accept deaths on the road of innocent people every day, so why not accept miscarriage of justice will have some deaths ?
I'm not saying I disagree, but it's not the slam-dunk you think it is. |
Anyone who 100% trusts the UK police to act with integrity and honesty when dealing with hideous crimes is naive in the extreme.
Of course the majority of plod will do so, but rogue police have fitted up innocent people for decades and would have led to the state killing of dozens of innocent people.
The West Midlands crime squad being the most infamous. (Not one of whom was ever successfully prescuted for their actions, but thats a whole new can of worms). Our criminal system will always be subject to humans who frequently lack honesty. Give them too much power and the consequences would be substanial. |  |
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| The death penalty on 13:04 - Jan 22 with 1264 views | TRUE_BLUE123 |
The pro Death Penalty argument is genuinely one of the most flawed viewpoints in the history of viewpoints.
There is no logic at all to bringing it back. None. |  |
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| The death penalty on 13:57 - Jan 22 with 1200 views | Trequartista |
| The death penalty on 11:41 - Jan 22 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Ha, you say you haven't ignored awkward questions... but in this reply you're certainly ignoring my extension of your logic, and even shut it down rather than dealing with it by saying "Not sure there's more to add".
For me the debate against the death penalty is rock solid - miscarriages of justice mean innocent people killed, it's been proven not to be a deterrent, it's barbaric and mediaeval, some of the worst states in the world have it, and it's less of a punishment than full life imprisonment (which ends the same way, just over a longer period).
When you put all those together it's a slam dunk. |
I think you can extend the logic to anything. Cars was only an example. The underlying argument was that if we are willing to accept that there will be innocent deaths in whatever area of life, than why does the capital punishment argument have to require zero deaths for the argument to be settled?
What if, for example the bar was so high that only say Brady, Huntley, Shipman, West and Rudakubana were put to death. It would be highly unlikely that even 1 mistake had been made.
To re-iterate again, I am sceptical that a bar can be set in such a clear way, so i am against, but i don't subscribe to the theory that just 1 innocent death means automatic case closed. | |
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| The death penalty on 14:14 - Jan 22 with 1154 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The death penalty on 13:57 - Jan 22 by Trequartista |
I think you can extend the logic to anything. Cars was only an example. The underlying argument was that if we are willing to accept that there will be innocent deaths in whatever area of life, than why does the capital punishment argument have to require zero deaths for the argument to be settled?
What if, for example the bar was so high that only say Brady, Huntley, Shipman, West and Rudakubana were put to death. It would be highly unlikely that even 1 mistake had been made.
To re-iterate again, I am sceptical that a bar can be set in such a clear way, so i am against, but i don't subscribe to the theory that just 1 innocent death means automatic case closed. |
Because capital punishment is deliberate. You don't have to do it. In every other
area of life we actively try to prevent deaths (but unfortunately can't 100%, even in the 'sock-putting-on' area of life). It's really not that difficult. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The death penalty on 14:31 - Jan 22 with 1119 views | witchdoctor |
| The death penalty on 10:42 - Mar 10 by textbackup |
i know it would me, personal opinion, you think differently. i'm cool with that |
and me..👍 |  | | |
| The death penalty on 14:34 - Jan 22 with 1108 views | bazza |
| The death penalty on 10:54 - Mar 10 by SitfcB |
Doesn’t have to be instant death either does it, can be torture. Cut balls off etc |
You’d like the torture museum in Brugge you would 😂 |  | | |
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