| diane abbott 12:02 - Apr 23 with 12804 views | lowhouseblue |
in a letter published in the observer she tells us what she really thinks:
"Racism is black and white.
Tomiwa Owolade claims that Irish, Jewish and Traveller people all suffer from 'racism'. They undoubtedly experience prejudice. This is similar to racism and the two words are often used as if they are interchangeable. It is true that many types of white people with points of difference, such as redheads, can experience this prejudice. But they are not all their lives subject to racism. In pre-civil rights America, Irish people, Jewish people and Travellers were not required to sit at the back of the bus. In apartheid South Africa, these groups were allowed to vote. And at the height of slavery, there were no white-seeming people manacled on the slave ships."
so being jewish is no different from being a redhead.
i expect the letter is all made up. diane says it was just an "initial draft". |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| diane abbott on 17:43 - Apr 23 with 2222 views | pointofblue |
I think I understand what Abbott is trying to say - that BAME people suffer racism purely because of how they look, whilst other 'prejudice', to use her words, isn't down to race but religion, lifestyle etc. Very badly done, though, and almost made it sound like she thought some kinds of racism/'prejudice' are worse than others. |  |
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| diane abbott on 18:05 - Apr 23 with 2164 views | giant_stow |
| diane abbott on 16:02 - Apr 23 by Darth_Koont |
Yes. It’s always important to understand the context rather than trying to create a new one. |
The context was of an article arguing against this sort of thing:
"But I think the underlying argument of how racism is experienced for different groups and based on skin colour is a valid one. Even if we like to pretend that skin colour is no longer an issue."
To me, the article was trying to say that ranking of racisms is not helpful and ignores people's experience. I'd go further and say that to try and rank forms of racism is pretty racist - its a divide and rule tactic to create difference. |  |
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| diane abbott on 18:12 - Apr 23 with 2128 views | grow_our_own |
| diane abbott on 17:38 - Apr 23 by lowhouseblue |
my op quoted her letter in its entirety. |
"clumsily trying to draw a line between visible and invisible minorities" - but Jewish people aren't invisible. We have big noses and swarthy skin. Abbott was being racist, not clumsy.
What's more, history matters. Millions of us were murdered on an industrial scale within the generation of people still alive today. Some of my family were. Why? Conspiracy theories. Of the kind that Corbyn liked in 2012 (that mural). That bullsh!t is how it all started. Look up blood libel. It's no coincidence that Abbott is from the same extreme wing of the Labour party. [Post edited 23 Apr 2023 18:23]
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| diane abbott on 19:03 - Apr 23 with 2036 views | itfcjoe |
I blame her diabetes, must have been having a sugar low when she wrote this, submitted it and then didn’t realise it was a draft until she got criticised for it |  |
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| Diabetesist! (n/t) on 19:05 - Apr 23 with 2026 views | Bloots |
| diane abbott on 19:03 - Apr 23 by itfcjoe |
I blame her diabetes, must have been having a sugar low when she wrote this, submitted it and then didn’t realise it was a draft until she got criticised for it |
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| "One of the best posters on TWTD and a really good bloke" - Anon (April 2025) |
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| diane abbott on 19:53 - Apr 23 with 1948 views | Clapham_Junction |
| diane abbott on 18:12 - Apr 23 by grow_our_own |
"clumsily trying to draw a line between visible and invisible minorities" - but Jewish people aren't invisible. We have big noses and swarthy skin. Abbott was being racist, not clumsy.
What's more, history matters. Millions of us were murdered on an industrial scale within the generation of people still alive today. Some of my family were. Why? Conspiracy theories. Of the kind that Corbyn liked in 2012 (that mural). That bullsh!t is how it all started. Look up blood libel. It's no coincidence that Abbott is from the same extreme wing of the Labour party. [Post edited 23 Apr 2023 18:23]
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Impressive selective quoting there.
If you really think I was defending her, then you need to go on a reading comprehension course. |  | | |
| diane abbott on 20:10 - Apr 23 with 1910 views | Mullet |
Think this answers you |  |
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| diane abbott on 20:49 - Apr 23 with 1815 views | Dubtractor |
Just to weigh in a bit on this - what on earth went through Abbott's head to firstly think about writing that, then actually writing it, then reading it (prob a couple of times), before thinking "Yes, sending this is definitely a sensible thing to do, and I see no possible risk of it blowing up in my face".
Regardless of any argument of racist intent, the lack of judgement/intelligence involved to actually send that letter is crazy. |  |
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| diane abbott on 20:57 - Apr 23 with 1788 views | Swansea_Blue |
| diane abbott on 20:49 - Apr 23 by Dubtractor |
Just to weigh in a bit on this - what on earth went through Abbott's head to firstly think about writing that, then actually writing it, then reading it (prob a couple of times), before thinking "Yes, sending this is definitely a sensible thing to do, and I see no possible risk of it blowing up in my face".
Regardless of any argument of racist intent, the lack of judgement/intelligence involved to actually send that letter is crazy. |
Yep. Which makes you think that’s what she believes and then only backtracked when it was called out. It’s a shame in a way, as she’s certainly someone we should listen to in terms of her own experiences of racism. She seems unable to translate that into parity of empathy for other groups who’ve suffered similarly though for some reason. |  |
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| diane abbott on 21:41 - Apr 23 with 1693 views | grow_our_own |
| diane abbott on 19:53 - Apr 23 by Clapham_Junction |
Impressive selective quoting there.
If you really think I was defending her, then you need to go on a reading comprehension course. |
Excusingdefending, whatever. Let me give a fuller quote:
""
The best slant you could put on her comments is that she was very clumsily trying to draw a line between visible and invisible minorities, with visible minorities undoubtedly more open to abuse (although of course some white minorities are visible due to their clothing). However, the attempted apology is an insult to people's intelligence.
...
the current Labour hierarchy are probably licking their lips at an opportunity to fix another selection contest
""
You say that Jews are indistinguishable from white people despite our non-sartorial physical differences (big nosesdark skin). You say that Jews are less open to abuse. Our dead, gassed relatives would disagree, as would those in the UK today who have been subject to antisemetic physical attacks (173 violent assaults in 2021).
Abbott's suspension is not a factional conspiracy by the Labour leadership, this is how a mainstream political party should always deal with racists in their midst. | | | |
| diane abbott on 22:56 - Apr 23 with 1614 views | Clapham_Junction |
| diane abbott on 21:41 - Apr 23 by grow_our_own |
Excusingdefending, whatever. Let me give a fuller quote:
""
The best slant you could put on her comments is that she was very clumsily trying to draw a line between visible and invisible minorities, with visible minorities undoubtedly more open to abuse (although of course some white minorities are visible due to their clothing). However, the attempted apology is an insult to people's intelligence.
...
the current Labour hierarchy are probably licking their lips at an opportunity to fix another selection contest
""
You say that Jews are indistinguishable from white people despite our non-sartorial physical differences (big nosesdark skin). You say that Jews are less open to abuse. Our dead, gassed relatives would disagree, as would those in the UK today who have been subject to antisemetic physical attacks (173 violent assaults in 2021).
Abbott's suspension is not a factional conspiracy by the Labour leadership, this is how a mainstream political party should always deal with racists in their midst. |
I have to say, I'm seriously wondering whether this is trolling, as you seem to be claiming to be Jewish but also using cariacatures about how Jewish people look.
And to be clear, I was not defending or excusing her. I was trying to (charitably) understand what point she could have been trying to make, and that was the best I could come up with. [Post edited 23 Apr 2023 22:58]
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| diane abbott on 23:51 - Apr 23 with 1523 views | Cafe_Newman |
| diane abbott on 12:30 - Apr 23 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
She’s just downplayed the discrimination of a minority group, what you say is semantics. |
Is there a place for anti-semantics on this forum? |  | | |
| diane abbott on 00:19 - Apr 24 with 1495 views | MattinLondon |
| diane abbott on 23:51 - Apr 23 by Cafe_Newman |
Is there a place for anti-semantics on this forum? |
Anti-Semantics, possibly. Anti-pedantics, definitely. |  | | |
| diane abbott on 01:13 - Apr 24 with 1460 views | bournemouthblue |
| diane abbott on 12:12 - Apr 23 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
And what about the Irish who were turned away from renting rooms in the 80s. Comments in poor taste no? |
My surname is Irish and I have to say, what Diane Abbott has said here is monumentally stupid
She should get the book thrown at her here
Melanie Phillips I think it is, who seems to be just an awful woman, used a similar argument about Jewish people, saying something along the lines of Islamophobia being less important and racism to Jewish people was the worst type of racism
It was a ludicrous argument frankly, all racism is abhorrent and should be opposed at every hurdle
No racism is more equal than others, it just doesn't work like that |  |
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| diane abbott on 08:07 - Apr 24 with 1344 views | DJR |
| diane abbott on 01:13 - Apr 24 by bournemouthblue |
My surname is Irish and I have to say, what Diane Abbott has said here is monumentally stupid
She should get the book thrown at her here
Melanie Phillips I think it is, who seems to be just an awful woman, used a similar argument about Jewish people, saying something along the lines of Islamophobia being less important and racism to Jewish people was the worst type of racism
It was a ludicrous argument frankly, all racism is abhorrent and should be opposed at every hurdle
No racism is more equal than others, it just doesn't work like that |
That is absolutely right but interestingly there are suggestions of a hierarchy of racism in the Labour Party itself from the KC whose report has been rather brushed under the carpet.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/17/labour-accused-still-not-engagi |  | | |
| diane abbott on 08:32 - Apr 24 with 1291 views | Churchman |
| diane abbott on 01:13 - Apr 24 by bournemouthblue |
My surname is Irish and I have to say, what Diane Abbott has said here is monumentally stupid
She should get the book thrown at her here
Melanie Phillips I think it is, who seems to be just an awful woman, used a similar argument about Jewish people, saying something along the lines of Islamophobia being less important and racism to Jewish people was the worst type of racism
It was a ludicrous argument frankly, all racism is abhorrent and should be opposed at every hurdle
No racism is more equal than others, it just doesn't work like that |
I agree with this. All forms of racism, ageism, sexism, any ‘ism’, discrimination you name it are completely abhorrent. I don’t differentiate or grade it, as that in itself is for me unacceptable prejudice. I leave that to the Putins of this world. |  | | |
| diane abbott on 08:58 - Apr 24 with 1252 views | cressi |
| diane abbott on 08:32 - Apr 24 by Churchman |
I agree with this. All forms of racism, ageism, sexism, any ‘ism’, discrimination you name it are completely abhorrent. I don’t differentiate or grade it, as that in itself is for me unacceptable prejudice. I leave that to the Putins of this world. |
The world in my view has gone mental No good harping on what happened a century plus ago we may as well say what the Romans did. Have to live for now and the future. Now you can't say anything without somebody crying its racist sexist I did laugh when Piers Morgan said he wanted to be known as a black lesbian, his argument was right utter madness | | | |
| diane abbott on 09:01 - Apr 24 with 1248 views | Pinewoodblue |
She joins a long list independent MPs, there are currently more independent MPs than Lib Dems.
Both major parties are clearly intent on weeding out those they see as being a liability. Going to be a lot of the current bunch not seeking re-election when the day comes. |  |
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| diane abbott on 09:39 - Apr 24 with 1197 views | noggin |
| diane abbott on 08:58 - Apr 24 by cressi |
The world in my view has gone mental No good harping on what happened a century plus ago we may as well say what the Romans did. Have to live for now and the future. Now you can't say anything without somebody crying its racist sexist I did laugh when Piers Morgan said he wanted to be known as a black lesbian, his argument was right utter madness |
So people should stop talking about the holocaust or slavery? |  |
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| diane abbott on 09:44 - Apr 24 with 1195 views | Darth_Koont |
| diane abbott on 17:00 - Apr 23 by The_Romford_Blue |
Hi Darth.
Do you remember the other day when I said ‘With some of the sh*t like you’ve posted on here over the years, you might’ve found yourself fortunate to even be able to post anything at all’ after you attacked me for having an opinion separate to yours?
And you then asked me ‘Feel free to tell me where I’m wrong if you feel that strongly about my views. But I doubt you can.’
Well this is one of those times. You’re defending Abbotts frankly ridiculous comments. |
And remember when I said you can tell me where I’m wrong.
I’ve not defended her letter as it was written. The minimising of others’ experiences was clumsy at best and offensive at worst, even if I think the experience of “non-white” racism and the systemic results are things that can’t be ignored. Which has certainly been a tendency in recent discussions of racism in the UK.
So I’m somewhere between Abbott and the original opinion she was reacting to. And certainly wouldn’t use the racism vs. prejudice distinction that is outdated and way too crude and clumsy for today’s debate. |  |
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| diane abbott on 09:47 - Apr 24 with 1184 views | Blueschev |
| diane abbott on 21:41 - Apr 23 by grow_our_own |
Excusingdefending, whatever. Let me give a fuller quote:
""
The best slant you could put on her comments is that she was very clumsily trying to draw a line between visible and invisible minorities, with visible minorities undoubtedly more open to abuse (although of course some white minorities are visible due to their clothing). However, the attempted apology is an insult to people's intelligence.
...
the current Labour hierarchy are probably licking their lips at an opportunity to fix another selection contest
""
You say that Jews are indistinguishable from white people despite our non-sartorial physical differences (big nosesdark skin). You say that Jews are less open to abuse. Our dead, gassed relatives would disagree, as would those in the UK today who have been subject to antisemetic physical attacks (173 violent assaults in 2021).
Abbott's suspension is not a factional conspiracy by the Labour leadership, this is how a mainstream political party should always deal with racists in their midst. |
That's twice you've referred to a Jewish stereotype in your posts. |  | | |
| diane abbott on 09:47 - Apr 24 with 1172 views | Herbivore |
| diane abbott on 08:58 - Apr 24 by cressi |
The world in my view has gone mental No good harping on what happened a century plus ago we may as well say what the Romans did. Have to live for now and the future. Now you can't say anything without somebody crying its racist sexist I did laugh when Piers Morgan said he wanted to be known as a black lesbian, his argument was right utter madness |
This is what happens when you stand directly behind a horse and spook it. |  |
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| diane abbott on 10:02 - Apr 24 with 1120 views | Darth_Koont |
| diane abbott on 18:05 - Apr 23 by giant_stow |
The context was of an article arguing against this sort of thing:
"But I think the underlying argument of how racism is experienced for different groups and based on skin colour is a valid one. Even if we like to pretend that skin colour is no longer an issue."
To me, the article was trying to say that ranking of racisms is not helpful and ignores people's experience. I'd go further and say that to try and rank forms of racism is pretty racist - its a divide and rule tactic to create difference. |
But this is in a context where a) there is/has been a hierarchy of racism in recent years that goes against BAME and muslims and b) it’s questionable whether putting all racisms under one roof has led to better results because the experiences and structural issues are very much different.
Case in point would be seeing anti-Jewish racism as an attack on Jews as a race. But the really insidious and dangerous part of antisemitism is that it’s about portraying Judaic communities and culture as a shadowy and parasitic threat to “our values”.
I don’t think the original author is going against any of that necessarily, but there’s no doubt that an All Racisms Matter Approach risks denying certain experiences more than others. And it’s especially blunt and unhelpful at understanding structural racism. | |
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| diane abbott on 10:32 - Apr 24 with 1062 views | bournemouthblue |
It's funny how it's less of a focus when Corbyn isn't in charge
The media isn't consistent on this, the Tories would have been nailed to the wall on Islamophobia, if they were the Labour Party
The media are often a lot softer on the Tories, that's just the mechanics of our media sadly
The Tories didn't like it when elements of it became critical of them, quite rightly so and they soon moved to try and muzzle it [Post edited 24 Apr 2023 10:38]
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| diane abbott on 10:33 - Apr 24 with 1061 views | GlasgowBlue |
| diane abbott on 10:02 - Apr 24 by Darth_Koont |
But this is in a context where a) there is/has been a hierarchy of racism in recent years that goes against BAME and muslims and b) it’s questionable whether putting all racisms under one roof has led to better results because the experiences and structural issues are very much different.
Case in point would be seeing anti-Jewish racism as an attack on Jews as a race. But the really insidious and dangerous part of antisemitism is that it’s about portraying Judaic communities and culture as a shadowy and parasitic threat to “our values”.
I don’t think the original author is going against any of that necessarily, but there’s no doubt that an All Racisms Matter Approach risks denying certain experiences more than others. And it’s especially blunt and unhelpful at understanding structural racism. |
Would accusing 68 British rabbis of being "organised" by the Israeli embassy to complain about "severe" anti-Semitism within Labour, come under “portraying Judaic communities and culture as a shadowy and parasitic threat to “our values”? Or accusing British Jews of being part of a “smear campaign” organised by the Israeli lobby, when they raised concerns about antisemitism and presented their evidence to the EHRC?
Because I know a rank hypocrite on here who vocally supported this trope. |  |
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