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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this 21:12 - Sep 10 with 3408 viewsDarth_Koont

It would be good to hear criticism from all those Israel-supporting groups like the Tory leadership, the CFI and LFI who say they are actually working for a two-state solution ... oh I forgot. That's just lip service as they again stand idly by and do nothing about the latest in the long line of annexations that is destroying the viability of any future Palestinian state.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-49655226

Whether it's arming and training the Saudis to kill Yemenis, trying to manipulate factional power for commercial gain or providing a shelter for the religious and nationalist right in Israel to operate with impunity, the UK establishment is a shameful enemy of the people of the Middle East.

Do we really want our country to be seen like this?
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 12:36 - Sep 11 with 742 viewsClapham_Junction

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 08:50 - Sep 11 by giant_ullaa

Steve can reply for himself if he wants to to innit - I'm just commenting purely on your tone.

My opinion: I don't know why the Netanyahu would kid himself that this would ever make things better for any party in the long run. Seems like another step towards all out war to me, but then I'm a simpleton. Critical voices who stray into antisemitism let their own side down though and make that delegitimisation you mention possible


Likud and Hamas are two cheeks of the same arse. Both are reliant on the existence of the other (or the problems they cause) to maintain their popularity. It's in Netanyahu's interests to keep the conflict going (at a low level) to remain in power. This is ridiculously short-termist and lessens the chance of peace in the long-term, but these types of governments are not exactly known for their forward planning.

If there is peace, both will wither away as the main reason people support them in the current situation is their hardline stance against the other.
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 12:38 - Sep 11 with 739 viewsKropotkin123

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 09:29 - Sep 11 by Swansea_Blue

Useful to a Middle East ignoramus like me, thanks. Before I dig in though is this reliable (genuine question, I've no idea who Vox is)?


I don't know about the reliability of Vox per se, but this particular piece is accurate in so much as it is one seemingly impartial lens to view the bigger picture these regional conflicts fall into. One that a lot of people are unaware of when discussing the conflict in the area.

They obviously simplify things, as it a lot of info condenses a lot into a small amount of time. But it is an overview most would benefit from learning if they don't know already.

EDIT: Now researched below
[Post edited 11 Sep 13:05]

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 12:44 - Sep 11 with 713 viewsGlasgowBlue

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 12:33 - Sep 11 by footers

An even more radical solution:

Tell all parties involved that god doesn't exist.

Region-wide introduction of the donner bagel.

I can vouch personally for the second bit. There's no way any fair-minded person could eat one of those and continue being aggressive. It's the best of both worlds.


That’s put me off lunch

"History is made, sadly, by people who are bystanders and do nothing. Their inaction is an excuse and a cover for intolerance".
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 12:46 - Sep 11 with 713 viewsfooters

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 12:44 - Sep 11 by GlasgowBlue

That’s put me off lunch


It raised some eyebrows on Brick Lane but, trust me, it was a revelation.

"Yeah well, those kids probably get stickers for good behaviour, not our fault that Phil aint dishing out Paninis is it"
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:04 - Sep 11 with 686 viewsKropotkin123

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 10:53 - Sep 11 by caught-in-limbo

That's quite possibly the most one-sided and useless historical explanation of the situation in the Middle East I've ever had read/watched.

Then I looked into the ownership and history of Vox.

EDIT:

People need to know this at the very least:

[Post edited 11 Sep 11:15]


I'm glad it resonated so well...

The video doesn't conflict with your video.

There are many levels to the conflicts in the Middle East.

To not understand the two biggest players in the region is to not understand the conflicts themselves.

It is a very western approach to see things solely through the eyes of just the US and UK - be it positive or negative actions. There is always a localised setting.

To dismiss a video over ownership and history and not provide the details of the ownership and history is sensationalism
- Owner = Ezra Klein, Former Columnist at The Washington Post and a Democrat. Born in California and of Jewish heritage.
- Owner = Rafael Yglesias - Wrote for The American Prospect, The Atlantic, and Slate. Spanish / Cuban, with some Eastern European Jewish heritage.
- Melissa Bell - Former Writer at The Washington Post. American

Please elaborate. Or is being Jewish or American and making comments on the Middle East enough to disregard any insight.

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:13 - Sep 11 with 675 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 10:09 - Sep 11 by GlasgowBlue

Saying that the current Israeli government is racist isn’t antisemitic. Netanyahu Is a racist who enacts racist policies and leads a racist government.

Nothing antisemitic in that.

Saying that the state of Israel is a racist endeavour is. Now come back to me when you understand what Israel is a racist endeavour means in the context of the IHRA definition actually means.


If the endeavour to create a state for Jews leads to a racist state in the present then the endeavour itself has become racist....it is a perfect example of the grey zone definitions leading to fear of expressing thought....none of which is to deny legitimate cases of antisemitism being flagged up.

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:22 - Sep 11 with 661 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 12:33 - Sep 11 by footers

An even more radical solution:

Tell all parties involved that god doesn't exist.

Region-wide introduction of the donner bagel.

I can vouch personally for the second bit. There's no way any fair-minded person could eat one of those and continue being aggressive. It's the best of both worlds.


...how about no state anywhere to be defined by its dominant religion....the 6th form have spoken!

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:26 - Sep 11 with 649 viewsfooters

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:22 - Sep 11 by BanksterDebtSlave

...how about no state anywhere to be defined by its dominant religion....the 6th form have spoken!


Unless it's Discordianism.

"Yeah well, those kids probably get stickers for good behaviour, not our fault that Phil aint dishing out Paninis is it"
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:34 - Sep 11 with 623 viewsGlasgowBlue

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:22 - Sep 11 by BanksterDebtSlave

...how about no state anywhere to be defined by its dominant religion....the 6th form have spoken!


Fair enough. But the question then has to be asked why you always put this forward with regards to the only Jewish state in the world but have never once proposed this with regards to the 50+ Islamic states?

Is Pakistan a racist endeavour?

"History is made, sadly, by people who are bystanders and do nothing. Their inaction is an excuse and a cover for intolerance".
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:34 - Sep 11 with 628 viewsSpruceMoose

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 12:46 - Sep 11 by footers

It raised some eyebrows on Brick Lane but, trust me, it was a revelation.


You think you know bagels son? You don't know bagels.

Poll: Selectamod

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:39 - Sep 11 with 619 viewsfooters

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:34 - Sep 11 by SpruceMoose

You think you know bagels son? You don't know bagels.


Well done, you've picked one of the only foods that's better stateside than it is here.

It's a small victory. Very small indeed.

Enjoy your lunch at White Castle.

"Yeah well, those kids probably get stickers for good behaviour, not our fault that Phil aint dishing out Paninis is it"
Poll: Who is the best Judge?

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:45 - Sep 11 with 595 viewsSpruceMoose

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:39 - Sep 11 by footers

Well done, you've picked one of the only foods that's better stateside than it is here.

It's a small victory. Very small indeed.

Enjoy your lunch at White Castle.


Ohrly?!

I take it you wouldn't be interested in any of this delicious smoked brisket that I have for offer? Or one of the many regional varieties of BBQ sauce to go with it? Interesting...

I'll leave you to your cottage pie mate.

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:48 - Sep 11 with 588 viewsStokieBlue

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:45 - Sep 11 by SpruceMoose

Ohrly?!

I take it you wouldn't be interested in any of this delicious smoked brisket that I have for offer? Or one of the many regional varieties of BBQ sauce to go with it? Interesting...

I'll leave you to your cottage pie mate.


The reason for the existence of BBQ sauce is to hide the fact you've messed up the cooking of the meat.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:49 - Sep 11 with 585 viewsfooters

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:45 - Sep 11 by SpruceMoose

Ohrly?!

I take it you wouldn't be interested in any of this delicious smoked brisket that I have for offer? Or one of the many regional varieties of BBQ sauce to go with it? Interesting...

I'll leave you to your cottage pie mate.


You know barbecue is another. Running out of examples now, mate.

And cottage pie is just Brexit-voting moussaka. Much maligned.

"Yeah well, those kids probably get stickers for good behaviour, not our fault that Phil aint dishing out Paninis is it"
Poll: Who is the best Judge?

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:49 - Sep 11 with 582 viewsSpruceMoose

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:48 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue

The reason for the existence of BBQ sauce is to hide the fact you've messed up the cooking of the meat.

SB


Maybe CiL was right about you...

Poll: Selectamod

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:50 - Sep 11 with 577 viewsSpruceMoose

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:49 - Sep 11 by footers

You know barbecue is another. Running out of examples now, mate.

And cottage pie is just Brexit-voting moussaka. Much maligned.


Yeah yeah, I've seen your food Instagram. Who knew liver and onion lasagna was a thing?

Poll: Selectamod

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:56 - Sep 11 with 565 viewsBluesquid

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 11:29 - Sep 11 by GlasgowBlue

It’s an honourable aim but fear not a realistic one.

I get the feeling you seeing a model based on South Africa. I see an outcome worse than that in Zimbabwe.

The Hamas charter clearly states that all Jews should be cleansed from the Middle East. Even the founder of BDS, which people think is a pressure group to get fairer treatment for the Oalestinian people, has stated that their aim is to eradicate the state of Israel.

Then we have Iraq, Iran, Syria etc who want a Jew free Middle East.

Like I say, an honourable aim but not one that we will ever see.


"Then we have Iraq, Iran, Syria etc who want a Jew free Middle East."

lol

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/irans-jews-on-life-inside-i
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 14:04 - Sep 11 with 542 viewsStokieBlue

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:56 - Sep 11 by Bluesquid

"Then we have Iraq, Iran, Syria etc who want a Jew free Middle East."

lol

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/irans-jews-on-life-inside-i


You're not really being fair here. Having a Jewish population is totally different to not wanting a Jewish state in the region.

People actually in charge in Iran have stated numerous times that they don't want Israel to exist. Your article in no way counters the position GB posted.

I have no doubt the people of Iran have no issues with Jewish people in general. They are generally an enlightened and education populace lead by some unsavoury types.

SB

“You may not feel outstandingly robust, but if you are an average-sized adult you will contain within your modest frame no less than 7 X 10^18 joules of potential energy—enough to explode with the force of thirty very large hydrogen bombs, assuming you knew how to liberate it and really wished to make a point."

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 14:11 - Sep 11 with 521 viewsBluesquid

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 14:04 - Sep 11 by StokieBlue

You're not really being fair here. Having a Jewish population is totally different to not wanting a Jewish state in the region.

People actually in charge in Iran have stated numerous times that they don't want Israel to exist. Your article in no way counters the position GB posted.

I have no doubt the people of Iran have no issues with Jewish people in general. They are generally an enlightened and education populace lead by some unsavoury types.

SB


A Jew free Middle East means just that and that is what GB stated, he didn't say a Middle East free from a Jewish state.
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 14:56 - Sep 11 with 479 viewsjaykay

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 14:11 - Sep 11 by Bluesquid

A Jew free Middle East means just that and that is what GB stated, he didn't say a Middle East free from a Jewish state.


correct.
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 19:23 - Sep 11 with 402 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:34 - Sep 11 by GlasgowBlue

Fair enough. But the question then has to be asked why you always put this forward with regards to the only Jewish state in the world but have never once proposed this with regards to the 50+ Islamic states?

Is Pakistan a racist endeavour?


Any response to my comment immediately prior to that one?

....you know me number one fanboy for the Islamic state!
As I am sure you will know...religion is a non starter as far as state identity is concerned for the 6th form anarcho syndicalists.....so it didn't require stating.

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 19:25 - Sep 11 with 399 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:56 - Sep 11 by Bluesquid

"Then we have Iraq, Iran, Syria etc who want a Jew free Middle East."

lol

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/irans-jews-on-life-inside-i


Lollers seconded.....you beat me to it!

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 22:11 - Sep 11 with 334 viewsKropotkin123

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 19:23 - Sep 11 by BanksterDebtSlave

Any response to my comment immediately prior to that one?

....you know me number one fanboy for the Islamic state!
As I am sure you will know...religion is a non starter as far as state identity is concerned for the 6th form anarcho syndicalists.....so it didn't require stating.


All this talk of Anarchism... I thought you were pro EU? Or do I remember incorrectly?

The struggles of Anarchists trying to strip the state of religion is well-documented, particularly in places like Spain prior to WW2. But the relationship between Anarchist and religion differs from Anarchist to Anarchist and from place to place.

I'm sure from the way you speak about Anarcho Syndicalism, you know of Mikhail Bakunin who wrote God and the State - "If God did exist, he would have to be abolished". Durruti, who lost his life fighting the Spanish government prior to WW2, would often quote Kropotkin's quip that "The only church that illuminates is a burning church".

But Anarchists like Kropotkin would also sympathise with religious anarchists like Leo Tolstoy. Tolstoy of course rejected the state because for him being a Christian was about pacifism and non-violence, which was antithetical to the state, which inevitably waged war.

Moral dilemma, who is more of an Anarchist Syndicalist? Durruti who rejects the embedded authority of religion and fights the state at the cost lives or Tolstoy who primarily rejected violence and choose to ignore the state, but was a Christian, adhering to the embedded authority of the church?

Kropotkin wasn't vehemently opposed to religion like Bakunin, but he was born in the Enlightenment era and thought religion would just naturally be replaced by science, that the church and state would succumb to progress and both be abolished.

Anyway, It's not so much that religion is a non-starter when it comes to the state, more that the state is a non-starter, whether you are religious of not. Most Anarchists, even if they do see the state as a pillar of control, would argue to remove the state first and worry about religion later.

So onto my point. Why are you theoretically concerned whether religion is a non-starter or not? As an Anarcho-syndicalist, you reject the state. So you start a business with a solid worker's union that has control over the business as a whole, could inspire others to do the same and one day you can become the dominant decentralised power that would replace the state.
[Post edited 11 Sep 22:21]

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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 22:20 - Sep 11 with 324 viewsjeera

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 13:34 - Sep 11 by SpruceMoose

You think you know bagels son? You don't know bagels.


Bagels!

Where's that other thread?

Well it looks like a duck, it sounds like a duck. Nope, dunno what it is.
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When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 22:46 - Sep 11 with 304 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

When you delegitimise and marginalise critics then you're free to do this on 22:11 - Sep 11 by Kropotkin123

All this talk of Anarchism... I thought you were pro EU? Or do I remember incorrectly?

The struggles of Anarchists trying to strip the state of religion is well-documented, particularly in places like Spain prior to WW2. But the relationship between Anarchist and religion differs from Anarchist to Anarchist and from place to place.

I'm sure from the way you speak about Anarcho Syndicalism, you know of Mikhail Bakunin who wrote God and the State - "If God did exist, he would have to be abolished". Durruti, who lost his life fighting the Spanish government prior to WW2, would often quote Kropotkin's quip that "The only church that illuminates is a burning church".

But Anarchists like Kropotkin would also sympathise with religious anarchists like Leo Tolstoy. Tolstoy of course rejected the state because for him being a Christian was about pacifism and non-violence, which was antithetical to the state, which inevitably waged war.

Moral dilemma, who is more of an Anarchist Syndicalist? Durruti who rejects the embedded authority of religion and fights the state at the cost lives or Tolstoy who primarily rejected violence and choose to ignore the state, but was a Christian, adhering to the embedded authority of the church?

Kropotkin wasn't vehemently opposed to religion like Bakunin, but he was born in the Enlightenment era and thought religion would just naturally be replaced by science, that the church and state would succumb to progress and both be abolished.

Anyway, It's not so much that religion is a non-starter when it comes to the state, more that the state is a non-starter, whether you are religious of not. Most Anarchists, even if they do see the state as a pillar of control, would argue to remove the state first and worry about religion later.

So onto my point. Why are you theoretically concerned whether religion is a non-starter or not? As an Anarcho-syndicalist, you reject the state. So you start a business with a solid worker's union that has control over the business as a whole, could inspire others to do the same and one day you can become the dominant decentralised power that would replace the state.
[Post edited 11 Sep 22:21]


I voted not to be part of the EU.
Agree that cooperatives such as Suma are the way to go....all receive same wage and rotate between work tasks.
Personally favour a non violent organic transition away from state control(or at least to a point where the state actually feels like it represents the people as a collective) and that common sense regarding religion would prevail in good time.
Unfortunately the reality is that the state and those who it represents does not relent it's power peacefully.
[Post edited 11 Sep 22:48]

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