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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party 10:55 - Feb 7 with 44223 viewsGlasgowBlue

Who on here would vote for it?

This attack looks very coordinated this morning






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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:29 - Feb 7 with 3750 viewsGuthrum

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 13:54 - Feb 7 by BackToRussia

It's honestly not Guthrum. Wonderful things can be done, for free, very quickly. We could turn moorlands into excellent agricultural land within years, with large scale labour. My point was agriculture is free. It has to be, because it existed before money did!

I always wondered about the Irish potato famine. Why did they just grow potatoes when there's a hundred other things to grow, including other root crops? Perhaps we just have different perceptions? Ireland is one of the most fertile regions in Europe. It's called the emerald isle for a reason!


It's called the Emerald Isle because of the grassland and bogs. That doesn't necessarily mean it's terribly fertile for crops. There's also too much rain. Grass will grow on soil too thin, rocky, wet or poor for other things. Potatoes provide a big return of nutritional value per acre (most of the individual holdings were very small, too).

Transactions existed long before money did (indeed, Medieval society largely functioned without the latter). Money is only really a more portable, delayed system of barter. Rather than swapping goods/services directly for other goods/services, you exchange the first for something which can be swapped for the second at a later time.

Services and goods were not free before money, they just required something else to be provided instead. Unless you're already well off (having not just enough for yourself, but a surplus), why give what you have for none of the things you need in return?

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:34 - Feb 7 with 3744 viewsfooters

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:29 - Feb 7 by Guthrum

It's called the Emerald Isle because of the grassland and bogs. That doesn't necessarily mean it's terribly fertile for crops. There's also too much rain. Grass will grow on soil too thin, rocky, wet or poor for other things. Potatoes provide a big return of nutritional value per acre (most of the individual holdings were very small, too).

Transactions existed long before money did (indeed, Medieval society largely functioned without the latter). Money is only really a more portable, delayed system of barter. Rather than swapping goods/services directly for other goods/services, you exchange the first for something which can be swapped for the second at a later time.

Services and goods were not free before money, they just required something else to be provided instead. Unless you're already well off (having not just enough for yourself, but a surplus), why give what you have for none of the things you need in return?


What do you call a dead thousand-year-old Irishman? Pete.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:37 - Feb 7 with 3732 viewsGuthrum

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:22 - Feb 7 by BackToRussia

No I mean the weight and value of each vote was largely worthless. The tribal assemblies had four urban tribes that had the vast majority of the population of Rome, while other rural tribes had very few members. So you often only needed 100 votes to win or something silly.


Sulla's proscriptions are noteworthy historically for how he attacked the equestrian or knight class. Ditto the triumvirate. It removed political opposition and raised much needed funds.


The attacks went a lot further than that down the social scale. Altho targeting the wealthy and Equestrians, it encompassed their clients, supporters, freedmen and even slaves.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:37 - Feb 7 with 3731 viewsZedRodgers

I think these MPs are deliberately misrepresenting this and would agree that it's setting the tone for their bizarre and long time coming mini-exodus.

Tactically, Labour setting out a compromise that would divide the Conservative party to the core is at the very least understandable.

Those that are opposed to Brexit and simply want to remain seem happy to continuously ignore the fact that the numbers in HoC for reversing the result of the referendum just aren't there. Labour tabled amendments would pave the way for a 2nd referendum and for extending article 50 - Both were firmly rejected. The former was even voted down by the Tory faux-rebel Remainers.

'Stopping Brexit' is the result of something happening, not an action in itself. Whenever I press Remainers I know on how they see this being possible, it always comes back to the fact that they simply want the result of the referendum to be reversed. There is never any logical process behind it, just the empty rhetoric of 'stopping' or 'opposing' Brexit.

That being said, if this stalemate does result in a general election, Labour should campaign to extend article 50 and seek to negotiate a 'softer' deal that could win support of the house, then promise to put any negotiated deal to the public in a referendum. This is the only approach that would heal the divides that have left this entire debate so fractured.

Smith, Leslie, Umunna and Co. are bitter men that lack the foresight required in this situation.

Umunna in 2016:
"Remain campaigners must drop calls for new Brexit vote"
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/chuka-umunna-remain-campaigners-must-dr

Umunna in 2017:
"We should be prepared to sacrifice single market membership to axe freedom of movement"
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/chuka-umunna-single-market-free-movement-

Is it not their constant flim-flamming and empty rhetoric whining that has really paved the way for Brexit?

The sooner they leave, the better.

EDIT: From reading more of the thread, it seems that the same people who were criticising Labour/Corbyn for not engaging in talks (without no deal being taken off the table) when the withdrawal agreement was voted down, are the same people now criticising Labour for offering a compromise on their '6 tests'.

Spolier: Anything Labour does that isn't categorically saying "we are now campaigning to remain because Brexiteers are thick and we no better" will be considered as them facilitating or enabling Brexit.
[Post edited 7 Feb 2019 14:59]

No, not at the moment

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:37 - Feb 7 with 3727 viewsBackToRussia

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:29 - Feb 7 by Guthrum

It's called the Emerald Isle because of the grassland and bogs. That doesn't necessarily mean it's terribly fertile for crops. There's also too much rain. Grass will grow on soil too thin, rocky, wet or poor for other things. Potatoes provide a big return of nutritional value per acre (most of the individual holdings were very small, too).

Transactions existed long before money did (indeed, Medieval society largely functioned without the latter). Money is only really a more portable, delayed system of barter. Rather than swapping goods/services directly for other goods/services, you exchange the first for something which can be swapped for the second at a later time.

Services and goods were not free before money, they just required something else to be provided instead. Unless you're already well off (having not just enough for yourself, but a surplus), why give what you have for none of the things you need in return?


Grass is a cereal, though. Cereal rye will grow come wait may and bogs can be drained. It is perfectly possible for any place including Ireland to be food secure.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:43 - Feb 7 with 3709 viewsGuthrum

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:37 - Feb 7 by BackToRussia

Grass is a cereal, though. Cereal rye will grow come wait may and bogs can be drained. It is perfectly possible for any place including Ireland to be food secure.


When you say 'food secure', I presume you mean producing enough to feed the entire population? If so, that has not been the case in the UK for over a century. Thus why the interruption of food imports was such an issue during both world wars.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:48 - Feb 7 with 3698 viewsBackToRussia

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:43 - Feb 7 by Guthrum

When you say 'food secure', I presume you mean producing enough to feed the entire population? If so, that has not been the case in the UK for over a century. Thus why the interruption of food imports was such an issue during both world wars.


Yes RE food security. Under capitalism food security is an absurdity. We export the same foodstuffs as we import! I'm talking about a zero sum equation. You don't ship food out if it's required here.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:50 - Feb 7 with 3693 viewsZedRodgers

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 13:05 - Feb 7 by itfcjoe

What would need to happen for a new party to be formed, I'm too young to know what happened with the SDP - what are the nuts and bolts of it.


You would need the media to invite the 8-10 MPs on to every political program imaginable in the interest of impartiality and for all commentators to persuade everyone that their non-existent astroturfed grassroots were some kind of mass movement.

The media would also need to give them an easy ride with minimum hostility and ensure that viewers/readers understand these people are the only sensible voice in any debate.

All of these things will happen.

No, not at the moment

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:00 - Feb 7 with 3670 viewsitfcjoe

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 14:50 - Feb 7 by ZedRodgers

You would need the media to invite the 8-10 MPs on to every political program imaginable in the interest of impartiality and for all commentators to persuade everyone that their non-existent astroturfed grassroots were some kind of mass movement.

The media would also need to give them an easy ride with minimum hostility and ensure that viewers/readers understand these people are the only sensible voice in any debate.

All of these things will happen.


Sounds ideal, hopefully it happens

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:20 - Feb 7 with 3636 viewsZedRodgers

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:00 - Feb 7 by itfcjoe

Sounds ideal, hopefully it happens


Yes - Would be good to see what this opposition to Brexit that has been so absent is meant to look like exactly. Will their approach be to just tell the 52% that they were wrong? Will they table an amendment for a 2nd referendum and see if it passes this time? How soon will Tony Blair be wheeled out?

A serious question - which central policies are you hoping for here? What exactly is it that will attract you to voting for them? Please don't just say 'centrism' or that the other parties are too extreme. To vote for something you should believe in policy, not disapprove of the other parties' policies.

No, not at the moment

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:28 - Feb 7 with 3624 viewsBOjK

I'd vote for it, and almost certainly join it.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:31 - Feb 7 with 3610 viewsGlasgowBlue

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:28 - Feb 7 by BOjK

I'd vote for it, and almost certainly join it.


I now look back on the Blair years as a golden age. In hindsight it was only tribalism that saw me vote against it.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:32 - Feb 7 with 3600 viewsZedRodgers

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:31 - Feb 7 by GlasgowBlue

I now look back on the Blair years as a golden age. In hindsight it was only tribalism that saw me vote against it.



No, not at the moment

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:33 - Feb 7 with 3595 viewsStokieBlue

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:20 - Feb 7 by ZedRodgers

Yes - Would be good to see what this opposition to Brexit that has been so absent is meant to look like exactly. Will their approach be to just tell the 52% that they were wrong? Will they table an amendment for a 2nd referendum and see if it passes this time? How soon will Tony Blair be wheeled out?

A serious question - which central policies are you hoping for here? What exactly is it that will attract you to voting for them? Please don't just say 'centrism' or that the other parties are too extreme. To vote for something you should believe in policy, not disapprove of the other parties' policies.


To be fair it’s not really your place to tell him or anyone else how or why they should vote. Everyone has reasons of their own and they are afforded that right in this country. Some I am sure would argue that disagreeing with another parties policies is a perfectly valid reason to vote a certain way.

In fact, the Guardian were pushing tactical voting against the Tories very hard in 2017 and I don’t remember Labour or Momentum objecting to voting because people disapproved of one parties policies and not because they supported another.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2017/jun/02/tactical-voting-

SB

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:34 - Feb 7 with 3591 viewsitfcjoe

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:20 - Feb 7 by ZedRodgers

Yes - Would be good to see what this opposition to Brexit that has been so absent is meant to look like exactly. Will their approach be to just tell the 52% that they were wrong? Will they table an amendment for a 2nd referendum and see if it passes this time? How soon will Tony Blair be wheeled out?

A serious question - which central policies are you hoping for here? What exactly is it that will attract you to voting for them? Please don't just say 'centrism' or that the other parties are too extreme. To vote for something you should believe in policy, not disapprove of the other parties' policies.


More spending on education mainly, plus public services in general without the only policy for raising taxes to just go after the rich.

Be attractive for business but tighter on tax controls, and more public spending

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:37 - Feb 7 with 3570 viewsBOjK

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:31 - Feb 7 by GlasgowBlue

I now look back on the Blair years as a golden age. In hindsight it was only tribalism that saw me vote against it.


Me too. I voted for Blair, obv, but with less enthusiasm than I now think he/they deserved.

The tribalism on the left is utterly depressing. How about half the PLP can stay in a party when they view Corbyn as unfit for leadership is beyond me.

As it stands if more than 10 MPs leave it will be a surprise to me.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:38 - Feb 7 with 3565 viewsBloomBlue

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:34 - Feb 7 by itfcjoe

More spending on education mainly, plus public services in general without the only policy for raising taxes to just go after the rich.

Be attractive for business but tighter on tax controls, and more public spending


So you want be attractive to business but as soon as an entrepreneur comes up with a great idea and employees loads of people and makes money for themselves you want to tax them to death.

I think you need to understand how most businesses are created and how you attract them.
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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:41 - Feb 7 with 3552 viewsBOjK

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:38 - Feb 7 by BloomBlue

So you want be attractive to business but as soon as an entrepreneur comes up with a great idea and employees loads of people and makes money for themselves you want to tax them to death.

I think you need to understand how most businesses are created and how you attract them.


"... as soon as an entrepreneur comes up with a great idea and employees loads of people and makes money for themselves you want to tax them to death ..."

Where did he say that then?

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:42 - Feb 7 with 3551 viewsitfcjoe

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:38 - Feb 7 by BloomBlue

So you want be attractive to business but as soon as an entrepreneur comes up with a great idea and employees loads of people and makes money for themselves you want to tax them to death.

I think you need to understand how most businesses are created and how you attract them.


Where did I say I want to tax them to death - please point that out in my post.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:43 - Feb 7 with 3542 viewsfooters

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:38 - Feb 7 by BloomBlue

So you want be attractive to business but as soon as an entrepreneur comes up with a great idea and employees loads of people and makes money for themselves you want to tax them to death.

I think you need to understand how most businesses are created and how you attract them.


The corporate tax rate has fallen year on year since 1973. How on earth did UK plc survive? Companies should be taxed properly to do business in such an educated and affluent market. The rate at the moment is criminally low but thanks to Brexit it will have to remain that way for now. Sadly it is our public services which will suffer.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:52 - Feb 7 with 3511 viewsZedRodgers

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:33 - Feb 7 by StokieBlue

To be fair it’s not really your place to tell him or anyone else how or why they should vote. Everyone has reasons of their own and they are afforded that right in this country. Some I am sure would argue that disagreeing with another parties policies is a perfectly valid reason to vote a certain way.

In fact, the Guardian were pushing tactical voting against the Tories very hard in 2017 and I don’t remember Labour or Momentum objecting to voting because people disapproved of one parties policies and not because they supported another.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2017/jun/02/tactical-voting-

SB


I was asking for his reasons more than I was telling him what to do.

Happy to acknowledge that tactical voting is a thing, but would think that the majority of people doing so - especially those in the Labour/Momentum example you used - have a belief in the party they are voting for's policies.

No, not at the moment

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 16:01 - Feb 7 with 3475 viewsZedRodgers

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:34 - Feb 7 by itfcjoe

More spending on education mainly, plus public services in general without the only policy for raising taxes to just go after the rich.

Be attractive for business but tighter on tax controls, and more public spending


More spending on public services and education - Labour
Less spending on public services and education - Conservatives

It seems your concern is that Labour's only policy in raising this money is that they will 'go after the rich'. Is this based on Labour proposing to raise £19b of the £48b of spending in their manifesto by adjustments to corporation tax (and actually making companies pay it), or is it based on the £6b they proposed to raise by raising taxes for people earning more than £80k?

Which is 'the rich' that you don't want your party to go after?

No, not at the moment

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 16:01 - Feb 7 with 3473 viewsStokieBlue

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:52 - Feb 7 by ZedRodgers

I was asking for his reasons more than I was telling him what to do.

Happy to acknowledge that tactical voting is a thing, but would think that the majority of people doing so - especially those in the Labour/Momentum example you used - have a belief in the party they are voting for's policies.


I didn't use Labour/Momentum as an example - please reread the post I made.

I said they didn't object to asking other voters who likely didn't believe in their policies given they weren't already voting for Labour to vote against another party because they didn't like their policies.

That's exactly what you said shouldn't happen yet I don't remember any outcry at the time. Just seems rather hypocritical to me.

Anyway, it's not something I want to have big debate about, just thought it was worth citing. Have a lovely evening.

SB
[Post edited 7 Feb 2019 16:03]

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 16:05 - Feb 7 with 3457 viewsGlasgowBlue

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 15:37 - Feb 7 by BOjK

Me too. I voted for Blair, obv, but with less enthusiasm than I now think he/they deserved.

The tribalism on the left is utterly depressing. How about half the PLP can stay in a party when they view Corbyn as unfit for leadership is beyond me.

As it stands if more than 10 MPs leave it will be a surprise to me.


Must pundits put the number at six. John Rentoul is a good follow as he has decent contacts.

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Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 16:08 - Feb 7 with 3453 viewsitfcjoe

Looks like moderate Labour MP’s are about to form a new party on 16:01 - Feb 7 by ZedRodgers

More spending on public services and education - Labour
Less spending on public services and education - Conservatives

It seems your concern is that Labour's only policy in raising this money is that they will 'go after the rich'. Is this based on Labour proposing to raise £19b of the £48b of spending in their manifesto by adjustments to corporation tax (and actually making companies pay it), or is it based on the £6b they proposed to raise by raising taxes for people earning more than £80k?

Which is 'the rich' that you don't want your party to go after?


Labour's manifesto just didn't make sense to me in a lot of ways with regards to how these things will be funded, and I don't agree with the necessity to try and privatise everything so quickly - it won't happen and I believe Labour will get hung up on it.

I'm probably centre left socially and centre right economically, and generally would have prescribed to the Orange Book side of the LD party. The Labour party with Corbyn in charge is way too far left for me,as is the way the Tories have gone since the LDs went from coalition, and especially under May with what they put out for the 2017 election as their manifesto.

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