| Cash out 08:32 - Aug 2 with 18982 views | Kropotkin123 |
Who uses cash?
- Old people
- Drug dealers and users
- Tax Dodgers
Why is cash an issue
Cost: Believe it or not, it costs money to make money. Mining metals, minting coins, designing pictures, testing quality, fraud prevention, fraud detection, printing and on and on.
Environment: The environment is harmed in many ways. Mining, supply chain impacts like transportation, electricity at ATMs, felling trees.
Health: aside from the obvious - pollution put into the atmosphere, waters and soil. Money is great for transferring viruses and bacteria. Many, many people touch the same coins and notes, which touch other coins and notes.
Drug Industry: Drug dealers don't use cards to buy and sell drugs. They operate in cash. A typical deal will have huge wads of £20 notes.
Tax Evaders: Paying in cash gives the recipient the ability to not declare actual earnings, reducing their tax liabilities, meaning you, yes you, end up paying more tax as the loss of revenue is factored into government taxation either knowingly or unknowingly.
How does the removal of cash reduce these issues
- No money means no investment in making money.
- No money means the environmental damage is stopped.
- Ceasing the circulation of money ceases the health risks associated with money
- Stopping the ability to pay for drugs without a trail will make it more difficult to distribute drugs on scale.
- Having all transactions through card will reduce low level tax evasion.
How to implement
- Instantly cease production of all new coins and notes.
- Give a one year period for everyone to return all coins and notes to banks.
- After one year make all notes and coins illegal tender. [Post edited 2 Aug 2020 8:36]
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| Cash out on 14:01 - Aug 2 with 5792 views | WeWereZombies |
| Cash out on 13:56 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
There is actually a barter system in place across many areas of the UK, called LETS - Local Exchange and Trading Schemes.
Basically, goods or services are themselves the units of currency, so, e.g., and English teacher might provide an hour of private tuition as a unit of currency, and swap that for an organic turkey reared by another member for Christmas.
That's just a simplified example, in reality the tution might be worth 10 units and the bird 8 units, but the + and - of your acount lies with the "bank".
Each area tends to call its units by names which identify with the local area, so e.g. in Ipswich they might be called 'Orwells'. |
And in Norwich they could be called digits - you know, six digits make a hand, two hands make a wife, one wife makes, errr, one sister. Ah, I'm seeing the drawback with that system... |  |
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| Cash out on 14:01 - Aug 2 with 5794 views | Bent_double |
| Cash out on 12:43 - Aug 2 by Pendejo |
I am neither the Governor of the Bank of England not the Chancellor of the Exchequer, so I am not forcing anyone to do anything, simply playing devil's advocate.
The hardware is not expensive, a PDQ machine is less than £20 (so I was told by prospective employer a few years ago)
Quality of mobile phone or Wi-Fi signal can be improved with a little investment (jobs)
I regularly use card payment in Colombia, some parts of which are both poor and remote.
Where there's a will there's a way
However I would not suggest it's use should be imposed anywhere just that it could be achieved, I dare say bartering is still a currency somewhete. |
Sure, a machine is probably between £10-£20 a month rental, but then you have your transaction charges (1%-2%) on top of that for every single payment you put through, many hundreds of pounds a year for someone like myself.
Of course if you have a business bank account you also get charged to pay your money into that account, and a lot of ATMs (the numbers of which seem to be dropping fast) charge you to take your money out, not good. |  |
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| Cash out on 14:03 - Aug 2 with 5779 views | Herbivore |
| Cash out on 14:01 - Aug 2 by Bent_double |
Sure, a machine is probably between £10-£20 a month rental, but then you have your transaction charges (1%-2%) on top of that for every single payment you put through, many hundreds of pounds a year for someone like myself.
Of course if you have a business bank account you also get charged to pay your money into that account, and a lot of ATMs (the numbers of which seem to be dropping fast) charge you to take your money out, not good. |
My partner does craft fairs and she has a card payment system. It costs her nothing in fees and it was free, they take 1.5% of her sales and that's all she pays. There's a lot of choice out there now and that drives down cost. |  |
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| Cash out on 14:07 - Aug 2 with 5769 views | WeWereZombies |
| Cash out on 14:03 - Aug 2 by Herbivore |
My partner does craft fairs and she has a card payment system. It costs her nothing in fees and it was free, they take 1.5% of her sales and that's all she pays. There's a lot of choice out there now and that drives down cost. |
1.5% of her sales is all she pays - wow, sounds reasonable, £15 for pinging a few electrons around when you have to sell your furniture for a grand. I mean, who needs groceries for a few days anyway? | |
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| Cash out on 14:11 - Aug 2 with 5759 views | Ryorry |
| Cash out on 13:56 - Aug 2 by J2BLUE |
To be fair the hardware side of it isn't really an issue. PDQ machines are very cheap and would probably get even cheaper if we went cashless. Smartphones get better and cheaper by the year. You can now get a reasonable one with the ability to have google pay etc for £50. You can also get very cheap payment devices like Barclays Pingit which I believe they originally gave out for free to get people using their contactless platform.
Obviously wi-fi is different and I know the problems you've had. |
I know the OP wasn't country specific, but am also thinking of those living in severe hardship across the planet for whom a smartphone or computer would be completely off their scale of possibility. |  |
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| Cash out on 14:17 - Aug 2 with 5748 views | J2BLUE |
| Cash out on 14:11 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
I know the OP wasn't country specific, but am also thinking of those living in severe hardship across the planet for whom a smartphone or computer would be completely off their scale of possibility. |
Good point. I assumed (perhaps wrongly) this would be a UK (or UK+USA, EU, Australia, New Zealand, Canada) only deal. |  |
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| Cash out on 14:18 - Aug 2 with 5739 views | Bluefish |
| Cash out on 14:01 - Aug 2 by Bent_double |
Sure, a machine is probably between £10-£20 a month rental, but then you have your transaction charges (1%-2%) on top of that for every single payment you put through, many hundreds of pounds a year for someone like myself.
Of course if you have a business bank account you also get charged to pay your money into that account, and a lot of ATMs (the numbers of which seem to be dropping fast) charge you to take your money out, not good. |
Ours cost about 15 each and can be linked to any phone or tablet in seconds. There are no fees and they take 1.something percent. We lose less than 2p in the pound and don't have to take cash to the bank or turn people away for not carrying cash. It is an absolute no brainer |  |
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| Cash out on 14:19 - Aug 2 with 5744 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Cash out on 10:31 - Aug 2 by MattinLondon |
Anyone who thinks that the government (or big brother or whatever) really cares about them is an idiot. Granted if you’re a terrorist or criminal then that’s different. But government etc really do not have the manpower or interest in keeping tabs on most of the population. |
....and what is more it could never become so. Well what a relief! |  |
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| Cash out on 14:22 - Aug 2 with 5729 views | Herbivore |
| Cash out on 14:07 - Aug 2 by WeWereZombies |
1.5% of her sales is all she pays - wow, sounds reasonable, £15 for pinging a few electrons around when you have to sell your furniture for a grand. I mean, who needs groceries for a few days anyway? |
What are you on about? | |
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| Cash out on 14:24 - Aug 2 with 5713 views | Ryorry |
| Cash out on 14:19 - Aug 2 by BanksterDebtSlave |
....and what is more it could never become so. Well what a relief! |
Heh! Nor could any of the data ever be hacked into, nor any device ever be left on public transport & people's IDs be stolen ...
OK, I know I'm getting a bit carried away now  | |
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| Cash out on 14:26 - Aug 2 with 5713 views | J2BLUE |
| Cash out on 14:07 - Aug 2 by WeWereZombies |
1.5% of her sales is all she pays - wow, sounds reasonable, £15 for pinging a few electrons around when you have to sell your furniture for a grand. I mean, who needs groceries for a few days anyway? |
If the UK went cashless that 1.5% would probably entirely disappear. The government would probably fund the cost of transactions with the increased tax revenue purely.
Just to be clear I am not arguing for a cashless society, I just don't think your point would be applicable. | |
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| Cash out on 15:57 - Aug 2 with 5657 views | WeWereZombies |
| Cash out on 14:22 - Aug 2 by Herbivore |
What are you on about? |
I thought that was obvious, banks charging 1.5% for something that costs them 0.0something percent. Still, that does sound slightly less than Bluefish's less than 2%... | |
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| Cash out on 16:00 - Aug 2 with 5652 views | WeWereZombies |
| Cash out on 14:24 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
Heh! Nor could any of the data ever be hacked into, nor any device ever be left on public transport & people's IDs be stolen ...
OK, I know I'm getting a bit carried away now |
They are carrying you away? Will you now have to live in a translucent bubble cell adhered to a vast wall and surrounded by millions of other bubble cells? You never know, you may get lucky and find yourself in the one next to Keanu Reeves... | |
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| Cash out on 16:08 - Aug 2 with 5640 views | Herbivore |
| Cash out on 15:57 - Aug 2 by WeWereZombies |
I thought that was obvious, banks charging 1.5% for something that costs them 0.0something percent. Still, that does sound slightly less than Bluefish's less than 2%... |
It's not the bank that charges, it's the company whose tech you are using so that you can take card payment. They have had to develop that tech and presumably have to employ staff to make sure the tech works and is reliable. 1.5% isn't all that much, other than in your imagined scenario where someone sells a sofa for £1000 and doesn't realise there is a fee, they then have presumably already spent the £985 and have to go without food as a result. I mean, that scenario seems a bit far fetched. My partner doesn't mind paying the 1.5% as she's made several sales to people who only had card, without the reader she'd have made £0 from those people. | |
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| Cash out on 16:16 - Aug 2 with 5631 views | WeWereZombies |
| Cash out on 16:08 - Aug 2 by Herbivore |
It's not the bank that charges, it's the company whose tech you are using so that you can take card payment. They have had to develop that tech and presumably have to employ staff to make sure the tech works and is reliable. 1.5% isn't all that much, other than in your imagined scenario where someone sells a sofa for £1000 and doesn't realise there is a fee, they then have presumably already spent the £985 and have to go without food as a result. I mean, that scenario seems a bit far fetched. My partner doesn't mind paying the 1.5% as she's made several sales to people who only had card, without the reader she'd have made £0 from those people. |
Maybe, but those costs are spread over millions of users and could be made much lower now. As J2 suggested, if cash became hardly used then there might be Government intervention. Perhaps to reduce that 1.5% to something closer to 0.1%. It was in the interest of the banking sector to see the technology used more widely so they will have funded the research and development, and left the boot in to kick up plenty of takings on the back of that. | |
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| Cash out on 16:29 - Aug 2 with 5620 views | factual_blue |
| Cash out on 13:40 - Aug 2 by Kropotkin123 |
Thank you all for the replies.
I must admit, and as I've said to a couple of you in private, the OP was inspired by the article Bluefish linked. And I have been somewhat disingenuous in my motivations for writing the original post.
The people I associate with and I are in similar situations and cultural environments. Where largely we don't use cash unless we are forced to. So after reading the article of elder members of society being denied goods as simple as bread because they don't carry cards, I wanted to see how much push back there would be to a cashless society.
I do think that we will eventually get a cashless society, but I think it will be decades until cash is completely out.
I thought some of the reasoning and rationality for why it is still important and relevant interesting. And I found counter scenarios like the cards used at tuc shops equally so.
So, yeah, just wanted to say thanks, sorry and admit my motivations. [Post edited 2 Aug 2020 13:41]
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As you can only get benefits and pensions paid into a bank account these days, it's more likely to be 'don't want to use cards' rather than 'don't carry'. It's still 'a thing' that pensioners use their card to draw out their pension every week in cash from the Post Office. A good number (and I've seen it happen) have given their PIN number to the PO staff.
That said, that generation is slowly disappearing. Probably most people under - say - seventy-five are comfortable with cards. A lot people 'don't like' using them for smaller amounts. But I think we're going all get used to having to do so. |  |
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| Cash out on 16:37 - Aug 2 with 5607 views | Ryorry |
| Cash out on 16:29 - Aug 2 by factual_blue |
As you can only get benefits and pensions paid into a bank account these days, it's more likely to be 'don't want to use cards' rather than 'don't carry'. It's still 'a thing' that pensioners use their card to draw out their pension every week in cash from the Post Office. A good number (and I've seen it happen) have given their PIN number to the PO staff.
That said, that generation is slowly disappearing. Probably most people under - say - seventy-five are comfortable with cards. A lot people 'don't like' using them for smaller amounts. But I think we're going all get used to having to do so. |
A lot of people also don't like using them because of the opportunities for fraud they present. | |
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| Cash out on 16:47 - Aug 2 with 5606 views | factual_blue |
| Cash out on 16:37 - Aug 2 by Ryorry |
A lot of people also don't like using them because of the opportunities for fraud they present. |
Fair point.
That's why I shoplift. | |
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| Cash out on 16:49 - Aug 2 with 5595 views | Ryorry |
| Cash out on 16:47 - Aug 2 by factual_blue |
Fair point.
That's why I shoplift. |
🤣 | |
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| Cash out on 16:56 - Aug 2 with 5586 views | footers |
Cash is king. As every fule no.
We will move towards a cashless society but first it requires a completely new decentralised system like blockchain to make the process totally anonymous, secure and transparent, with the added incentive of removing AML/KYC processes which often make up a lot of the fees required on cards.
However that will only happen when a governing body of some sort adopts that model. It won't come through start-ups pissing about putting blockchain systems in toasters because it is/was a buzzword.
Crypto might be a bit of a joke, but the tech underpinning it certainly isn't.
Anyway, not for me. Too easy to implement controls as per China with cashless systems, atm.
P.S. Why use cash to buy drugs when you can get them delivered to your door with Bitcoin? [Post edited 2 Aug 2020 21:03]
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| Cash out on 17:14 - Aug 2 with 5569 views | gainsboroughblue |
| Cash out on 10:33 - Aug 2 by Ely_Blue |
Same for us too, cash only at the chinese |
Tattoo and piercing shops are still largely the same. |  |
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| Cash out on 17:23 - Aug 2 with 5560 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Cash out on 09:18 - Aug 2 by Herbivore |
Just do away with money full stop. It's the root of all evil. |
A root? Money isn't a root at all. It's an economic unit that functions as a generally recognized medium of exchange for transactional purposes in an economy. |  |
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| Cash out on 17:31 - Aug 2 with 5554 views | footers |
| Cash out on 17:23 - Aug 2 by Swansea_Blue |
A root? Money isn't a root at all. It's an economic unit that functions as a generally recognized medium of exchange for transactional purposes in an economy. |
Please replace the unnecessary z. I hope you copied and pasted that, but if not footers has his naughty stick handy. [Post edited 2 Aug 2020 17:34]
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| Cash out on 17:47 - Aug 2 with 5532 views | jeera |
| Cash out on 10:35 - Aug 2 by Bluefish |
It wouldn't take them long to adapt. As I say our tuck shop can take card or online payments |
Local bakers here only accepts cash, which although I am a strong advocate for keeping cash alongside electronic payments, think is an unhygienic way to operate. Obviously.
But of course cash is a necessity.
The Co-op's system here seems to go down regularly and so cash becomes the only option.
Then there's power-cuts. There cannot be a cashless society, if and when systems fail there has to be a back up.
In event of modern warfare, it's the first thing anyone would aim for. No means to pay? People will just take what they want, anarchy and defeat from within.
Maybe cheques will make a come-back, but it never pays to limit your options in any circumstances. |  |
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| Cash out on 17:49 - Aug 2 with 5526 views | jeera |
People who struggle with money can handle their budget better if they can see what they have available in front of them.
People saying limiting cards is the answer are missing the point. | |
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